Lets talk about Sanity.

[Theukon-dos]

Before we begin, I want to establish that this thread is NOT to suggest that Sanity be made harder. Even if the things I talk about/suggest would automatically result in Sanity being made more difficult, that's not the heart of the matter here. Got it? Good, alright.

 

Ah Sanity. One of Don't Starve's most iconic features. Kicking sense the Insanity Update of 2013. Sanity has been wearing at the back of survivor's minds for years.

 

And honestly, It's kinda boring.

 

I'm not trying to be pessimistic here belive it or not. And I do fully love the concept. But when you really look back at what Sanity offers, it's really not that much.

 

To re-cap. Sanity represents the players state of mind as it slowly degrades in darkness and when near monsters. Colors will start to wash out, shadows will attempt to snuff out the survivor's lights, and living darkness will attempt to strike down players who go to far.

And that... is about it. Checks notes

Oh, also the sprite and drops change for 2 very specific creatures.

 

Yeah, Sanity really doesn't do much. Most all of it's effects don't happen until the player is really low on Sanity. It doesn't really have much effect on the world, save for Rabbits, oddly. I guess you could also say something about Enlightment. But honestly, I wouldn't really. It only applies in 2 biomes, and is even more bare-bones than Sanity itself, only causing Gestalts to spawn when it's high.

 

And on top of that, Sanity is incredibly trivial to manage. Six silk for a top hat, and you pretty much never have to worry about Sanity outside of boss fights and caves. Upgrade to a Tam o' Shanter, and that list slims down to just boss fights.

 

Does Sanity necessarily need to change? Not really. But for something so integral to the game's identity. It may aswell just be a second health bar.

 

Now, Y'all know by now that I don't like bringing up perceived problems without also suggesting solutions. And today's no different. So how would I change sanity?

 

1. No more passive sanity clothing. Ruins gear and maaaybe some character-specific things? maybe. As I said above, a Tam o' Shanter makes sanity completely irrelevant for 95% of the game. I wouldn't make these items completely useless for Sanity though. Instead, they should reduce the passive sanity loss that comes from darkness or structural insanity auras. That way, they still make Sanity easier to manage, but you still need to actively invest in maintaining your sanity. Hell, some more sanity-dedicated items Like tams or Dapper vests could even block more rigorous insanity auras like those from bosses (Uncompromising mode mod has already done this with the Dapper vest and Theulicite suit.)

 

2. More interactions between insanity and the world. Rabbits and Rabbit Men already turn into Beardlings/Beardlords respectively. Why not let this happen to other creatures or structures? Flowers turn into evil flowers, butterflies turn into evil butterflies. Pig men turn Sickly and their eyes glow. Tallbird eyes become swirly and bloodshot. Twiggy trees start looking a bit handsy, Berry bushes start to look a bit darker, the potential is near endless. I tell ya. I'd even go as far as to suggest insanity-afflicted mobs should get new attacks or AIs, but that would be a bit tricky with multiplayer and all.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think sanity "Needs" changed per-se. It's gone 8 years without it after all. But it does feel like a shallow simulacrum of what a sanity system could be. Even without dipping too far into horror game territory. 

 

Spoiler

 

[Mike23Ua]

Bro, I just want back the Obsidian pillars that required raising and lowering ones sanity to get past.. I don’t care where they put that in the game- A RUINS rework where you need to do that to carefully traverse a maze labyrinth of High & Low Sanity bridges would be optimal I think.

[ALCRD]

I agree with cosmetic changes to Sanity and its effects on the world.

Seeing more eerie stuff while insane would be pretty fun. Even fake mobs hallucinations like in Amnesia. (Tho that one within reason)

 

However i do not agree with any nerfs to insanity countering clothing or anything making insanity harder either directly or indirectly.

Not all characters can manage sanity the same way as others.

[Szczuku]

26 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

More interactions between insanity and the world. Rabbits and Rabbit Men already turn into Beardlings/Beardlords respectively. Why not let this happen to other creatures or structures? Flowers turn into evil flowers, butterflies turn into evil butterflies. Pig men turn Sickly and their eyes glow. Tallbird eyes become swirly and bloodshot. Twiggy trees start looking a bit handsy, Berry bushes start to look a bit darker, the potential is near endless. I tell ya. I'd even go as far as to suggest insanity-afflicted mobs should get new attacks or AIs, but that would be a bit tricky with multiplayer and all

That's an interesting suggestion but I'm not so sure about it.

The Rabbits' and Bunnymen's transformations are kind of explained by Ancients creating carrots with the shadow magic. And maybe many of you have forgotten about it but the Metheus mural was one of the biggest ancient lore reveals ruins have ever received. And Klei went out of their way to feature carrots in it. Most likely to explain beardlings and beardlords.

Your take, about environment changing due to insanity, means that insane individuals are essentially an opening, a gateway for shadow magic into the Constant. I could see that, but Klei would need to deliberately have it confirmed by someone like Maxwell. Not to mention that insanity rework of that scale calls for a RwyS-sclae update if not a bigger one.

Something that I wanted for a long time was, essentially, a Wavy Jones on land. A shadow creature that would begin messing with you if your sanity dropped belove 75%. It would never directly attack you (and you couldn't attack it either) but it would for example mess with your activated crockpot and cause it to produce wet goop if you don't intervene or scare your beefalo/woby and cause it to drop you. The lower your sanity the more destructive and frequent those actions become.

 

[HowlVoid]

Making the stat harder to manage is only going to force people to want to avoid it even more. Not to sound rude or anything but at some point your suggestions are going to end up as the current "interactions" with insanity; they're going to become stale. 

I don't believe anyone goes insane for the fun of it. Essentially everyone is going to prioritize staying sane more often all the time. There are dishes that accomplish this even better than any clothing item. Then what you'll have is people traveling to the dessert for cactus flesh more often or just turning off the effects of insanity all together. 

To me insanity has always been a silent insidious killer. You underestimate it until it turns its ugly head and kills you. I think the part that can be furthered explored is the risk vs reward I've always attributed to being insane.

I'd like to see a dark take on Alice in wonderland meets don't starve. Essentially a new place where being insane is the norm. Going sane at any point is a death sentence; where the wacky has been a close brush with death all along. Instead there is a new state past insanity in this place, where the stat goes into the negatives. Essentially once the sanity bar has gone empty it beings to fill with a pitch black viscous substance and all you perceive is a dark warp of reality. In this new realm there is new dark power to harness and tame (origin of the obelisks?). Not entering into a bit of horror is what is holding back insanity in the first place. I want to be afraid but I also want to reap my dark rewards. 

Tl;dr I think, and I believe Klei is inclined to agree, it is too late to revise any of the core stats. Instead I'd like to see more of that risk vs reward that comes with being insane. Perhaps in a new biome where being insane is not only encouraged but is your lifeline. Instead, insanity can plunge us into a whole new dark realm full of power and possibilities. 

[Frosty_Mentos]

Sanity is pretty sensitive thing to be changing around cause the difficulty level changes between how many and what different nightmares start going after you in which formations. Cause myself honestly - I find it terrifying when terrorbeaks are pushing a bunch of crawlers at me before they themselves strike. 

Not to mention that this mechanic also already forces new players to suffer from more advanced kiting pattern creatures like shadows to fight them early if they're not careful. They don't know how to handle themselves yet.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bro, I just want back the Obsidian pillars that required raising and lowering ones sanity to get past.. I don’t care where they put that in the game- A RUINS rework where you need to do that to carefully traverse a maze labyrinth of High & Low Sanity bridges would be optimal I think.

You are describing the atrium 

[prettynuggets]

yall talk about it being boring need turn the sanity monster to insane . uhh prolly u will play as willow ..smh


sanity clothing is essential when u dont really like to play fighting mode 24/7 .. just want chill make a shrine for gloomer or just picking guano from ur bunnymen guardstation near ur sinkhole .. somethime u must think this game is already a big part of community that love living in peace digging hole in ground to plant crops .. or just simply digging turf to make road home .. 

[Falkenpelz]

I think the cosmetic additions people are suggesting here sound pretty interesting, I would like that darker change of the world. But I don't think, nerfs are needed at the moment.

On an additional note, sanity in singleplayer DS is still a big deal to me quite often, especially in any world where you don't have easy excess to a tammo *cough cough shipwrecked cough* 

[xhyom]

I just want that they stop giving up attacking randomly 

But i agree with cosmetic additions, less funny black ticks, more variety! 

[BezKa]

I don't know, I don't feel like sanity needs any changing. 

Especially flowers turning evil when you're low, when picking them is supposed to raise it. 

Sanity is a constant bother even with clothes. Going to the caves usually means you'll want to wear a mining hat and armor/backpack. You'll either need to stockpile sanity food, or just go insane half the time. 

And considering the insanity monsters on their own, you'll probably be fine if one of them spawns. It took a while to learn to manage a pair, but two Terrorbeaks are still a pain to deal with and I die to that combo pretty often. Point is, they're not a problem on their own, but they become a problem when you're already dealing with something else. The boss battles you mentioned yourself come to mind. 

If there were many cosmetic changes to the world while insane, that sure would look awesome. But it would require a ton of new artwork, and some sort of transition animation. Because imagine going through your farm area, and all the Twiggy trees and bushes suddenly have to change into their evil versions. A fun solution would be if they changed off-screen. 

I don't really know what change to sanity would make it more interesting. And if it really needs to be. A couple monsters to bother you and give you the very same material that led to collapse of entire civilisation, whispers and sounds easily mistaken for hounds, wavy screen, the veins at the corners of the screen, character animations of holding their head or looking around spooked, I'd say it's pretty good. 

It's the same old thing of "I'm used to it now so I'm tired of it" that can only be solved by taking a break from the game. 

Enlightenment probably has some more in store waiting in the next updates. Whenever they might start.

[Capybara007]

The feature becomes boring once you master it, it would be too much work from klei to constantly keep this mechanic fresh. Its fine this way.

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

To re-cap. Sanity represents the players state of mind as it slowly degrades in darkness and when near monsters. Colors will start to wash out, shadows will attempt to snuff out the survivor's lights, and living darkness will attempt to strike down players who go to far.

And that... is about it. Checks notes

Oh, also the sprite and drops change for 2 very specific creatures.

It also affects the sanity obelisks near the pig king, trapped pig set piece, and atrium. DSA has a lot of them in adventure mode, too.

7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

No more passive sanity clothing. Ruins gear and maaaybe some character-specific things? maybe. As I said above, a Tam o' Shanter makes sanity completely irrelevant for 95% of the game. I wouldn't make these items completely useless for Sanity though. Instead, they should reduce the passive sanity loss that comes from darkness or structural insanity auras. That way, they still make Sanity easier to manage, but you still need to actively invest in maintaining your sanity.

So instead of needing to weigh the pros and cons of wearing sanity clothes, insulating clothes, or armor, it's just really simplistic and you're always wearing armor unless it's a dangerous season in which case you might choose insulating clothing. Then instead of wearing a tam you just carry around a stack of sanity food, and you periodically get more of it. That's not challenging or fun, that's just tedious. If you don't like sanity clothes don't wear them, you can already just eat a bunch of sanity food and ignore the clothing.

It doesn't matter if it "slows the rate at which you go insane", because that rate at which you go insane is already so slow. You want to still have to eat food to manage it so the effect the clothing has would have to be so small it's just a waste of an inventory slot, waste of an equipment slot that could better be used on something like a miner hat, and would barely change the amount of sanity food you have to eat.

7 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Hell, some more sanity-dedicated items Like tams or Dapper vests could even block more rigorous insanity auras like those from bosses (Uncompromising mode mod has already done this with the Dapper vest and Theulicite suit.)

You complain that sanity is too easy to manage and your solution is to make it so that the #1 thing that causes insanity and normally requires a fragile boss drop from one of the most difficult bosses in the game that breaks after not too many hits is instead removed from something as simple as killing a few hounds and can be easily repaired. You're making passive sanity loss tedious while trivializing the most threatening sanity loss.

[MondayNight]

Your Sanity Clothing suggestion, OP, would just make said clothing "useless" like Cat Cap for example.

Yet your Sanity impacting the World one would be most welcomed in my book, making game more interesting with a variation on biomes at low sanity, with also added benefits like new loot from new enemies.

[Notecja]

First idea: nope. Leave clothes, most people anyway use only few items, and that could limit even more items.

More changes to world when going insane? YES. Especially late game, as usually most players have gear and stuff to just ignore insanity. And maybe more interactions with insane things... 

[Parusoid]

7 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bro, I just want back the Obsidian pillars that required raising and lowering ones sanity to get past.. I don’t care where they put that in the game- A RUINS rework where you need to do that to carefully traverse a maze labyrinth of High & Low Sanity bridges would be optimal I think.

im confused why you want it "back" since its already in the game

[BeeClops]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Bro, I just want back the Obsidian pillars that required raising and lowering ones sanity to get past.. I don’t care where they put that in the game- A RUINS rework where you need to do that to carefully traverse a maze labyrinth of High & Low Sanity bridges would be optimal I think.

this really is hilarious given that the atrium is exactly this. 

As for the suggestions I disagree with most(in particular with the no more passive clothing gain) but I wouldn't mind some visual changes or more mobs being affected by it, that sounds more fun. I wouldn't make it any harder to deal with tho, as it's still the thing that kills new players the most

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

yall talk about it being boring need turn the sanity monster to insane . uhh prolly u will play as willow ..smh


sanity clothing is essential when u dont really like to play fighting mode 24/7 .. just want chill make a shrine for gloomer or just picking guano from ur bunnymen guardstation near ur sinkhole .. somethime u must think this game is already a big part of community that love living in peace digging hole in ground to plant crops .. or just simply digging turf to make road home .. 

While I understand this mindset I feel like it's holding back more engaging content and enemies I mean there is a way to turn nightmare creatures to less or none now so I think it's fine to change them to be both more interesting and dangerous.

[Mantispidae]

The Tams sanity impact is meant to be high payoff due to the relative rarity of the mobs and dropping them. That of course means that with time you can certainly build up a collection, but you have to be prepped for regular walrus killing or at least remember to use the sewing kit. Is it the perfect balance choice? Maybe not, but it's not like its super super easy to obtain.

I don't mind the suggestion of more visual changes to the world in low sanity, especially since that could add some flair to the environment for those who need to turn the visual effects of sanity off. Plus I just find them fun. I also wouldn't mind more mobs with the rabbit mechanic where drops and look change, especially if Klei was to get creative with it and make the two sanity drop pools more interesting than "meat vs. nightmare fuel" cause it could be really fun to have mobs that encourage actively manipulating the sanity state depending on what you want to farm from them. Drop rate changes could be a real fun hidden effect- like maybe elemental hounds drop gems more frequently if killed in low sanity. Maybe insanity birds will always drop seeds for weeds? Stuff like that.

However, changing previously positive sources like flowers to evil flowers I don't really agree with- stuff like the flowers are supposed to be beginner-friendly sanity sources. Sanity absolutely is plenty deadly for people weaker in the combat aspects of the game, especially when shadow count gets overwhelming because they aren't really mobs you can just run away from until they de-aggro if you aren't doing anything to fix the situation. If you make too much of the world hostile to deal with it just becomes harder for the unprepared and a bigger annoyance to avoid engaging with.

You know what I do want though? More variety in the sanity monsters. Wavey Jones has some really 'fun' boat mechanics, but land only really has a shadow equivalent. More variety in the minor annoyance mechanics (maybe tossing junk out of chests or something?) or mobs that aren't hostile but have some sort of other mechanic in how they interact with the player would be fun. Like maybe immobile mobs that will spawn around the player's location and have a big insanity aura, to keep you moving.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

While I understand this mindset I feel like it's holding back more engaging content and enemies I mean there is a way to turn nightmare creatures to less or none now so I think it's fine to change them to be both more interesting and dangerous.

But is turning them to less or none the optimal answer? IF (and that’s a big “If”) changing that setting also changed what types of Sanity monsters or how difficult those sanity monsters were: then yeah I would Agree 100% But If all changing that setting did was get rid of them: Then you essentially strip other players who never wanted harder insanity monsters from enjoying (or at least trying to enjoy) current content without it getting anymore difficult.

Now: As the Most vocally advocate about these settings- Klei could probably add individual toggles for each TYPE of Sanity monster/effect if new ones were added- So players can have their cake & eat it too..

But as you all keep pointing out to me, that would require a ton of work on Klei’s side.

In the end though: If Klei wants to change the game with ideas like this without Changing the game on people who enjoy it the way it is now: Then they are going to HAVE TO offer this up via a new game mode or new world Gen presets/ toggle options.

Otherwise you just make the game more frustrating on people who haven’t learned it yet.

[Maxil20]

10 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

Yeah, Sanity really doesn't do much. Most all of it's effects don't happen until the player is really low on Sanity. It doesn't really have much effect on the world

I feel like a lot of people don't really acknowledge the "passive" sanity effects, other then nightmares and bunnymen/bunnies. The color saturation, for instance, is a really unique thing that's only tied to sanity. The more insane you are, the more desaturated and bleak the world gets, and I always thought that was really neat. There's also ambiance/screen distortion that also gives insanity more of a tone, however I've always personally turned those off as they are not appealing for me to look at compared to the desaturation.

As for the sanity meter in general, it's easy to counter, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. The top hat for instance can fully negate the passive sanity drain of dusk and night, but that's only if you constantly keep it on, preventing you from wearing other head slot items, like the miner hat/football helm. The main issue with this is the Tam o shanter, as it's accessible early on (1st-2nd winter) and does an amazing job at not only keeping you sane with it's massive 6.7 sanity per minute aura, but even keeps you warm during winter. Other insulated clothing can do the job better, but you risk losing your backpack and/or losing the massive sanity bonus (which, considering winter is mostly dusk/night, is very noticable). Spring is a decent example of where the meter does mean something, as the eyebrella doesn't give sanity, it rains very frequently, and similar to winter, has very long dusks/nights.

One more thing I do want to bring up are those 2 insanity creatures. In DST, they are fairly average for a DST mob, but in DS, they were very strong for how frequently you could fight them. The terrorbeak in particular has 400 HP and 50 damage, which while fairly easy to deal with in DST, is very different from what you are expected to fight in DS (Clockworks, for instance, have 300 HP and deal 40 damage). They felt like a legitimate threat and they were one of the reasons I very rarely went insane in DS. In DST however, with many mobs getting an HP increase and bosses having tens of thousands of health, mobs like terrorbeaks went from Dangerous to a fairly average threat.
 

11 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

(Uncompromising mode mod has already done this with the Dapper vest and Theulicite suit.)

I will admit, this is one thing I really liked from Uncompromising mode. Body slot items providing sanity rarely get to see the light of day because the hat slot items are all you need. Body slot items both providing sanity and reducing the passive sanity drain from monsters/auras would make them an interesting choice for bosses, especially ones like deerclops where it's massive insanity aura is a large part of the fight.

[Owlrust]

I wouldn't ask anything specific from the devs regarding sanity. I would only ask for more interactions with insanity, and leave the rest up to them.

I like the concept but it seems like there's nothing that really impacts you aside from the obnoxious noise and the occasional mob.

[SinancoTheBest]

Anyone claiming sanity isn't relevant until it drops very low has not truly endured the agonizing torment of Wavey Jones even at very high sanity 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, SinancoTheBest said:

Anyone claiming sanity isn't relevant until it drops very low has not truly endured the agonizing torment of Wavey Jones even at very high sanity 

that is the way of making the mechanic deeper, adding new effects and dangers in new situations and places

[kilobit]

It would be cool to see things get more messed up (besides the colors) as you delve deeper into insanity...
Make it feel like you're really being tormented by shadows, without making the game harder
Instead of being really painful visually and audibly I'd rather there be more interesting visuals, I like the shadows that don't do anything harmful