Opinions on DST's combat system.

[Nikki Darks]

So, DST has a low of intricate and unique mechanics for a survival game, but for me, one of those mechanics severely lacked in intricacy, uniqueness, and overall flavour/gameplay quality.

And that mechanic is the entire combat system.

Don't Starve Together's combat system could be easily explained in 3 words.

Hit and run.

All you do is hit something, run away, hit again, run away... I know, very interesting, right?

Though, there are exceptions, but even those get dumbed down to Hit, {insert one thing that slows down your hit and run}, run, hit.....

Ancient Fuelweaver is probably the best example of a fight in all of dst.

He has interesting mechanics, he has attacks that require you to do other stuff besides hitting him brainlessly, and he also requires you to use an underused weapon, Weather Pain.

Toadstool is a very bad example of trying to mask the issue as "Look, the fight is interesting now that you need to do something that only slows down your hit and run!"

Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE Toadstool's fight, but it really is just that. The trees and spore clouds are only there to slow down your fight and make it last longer. It's probably one of the reasons people never bother with Misery Toadstool.

The boom shrooms just make you hit and run even more.

So how does a game manage to have such a painfully, noticeably bland and boring system that's one of the most important parts of the entire game?

The combat items/weapons surely fix this, right?

Yes and No. 

Darts are ranged attacks that work exactly the same as melee, just ranged.

There's no "Unique" combat items besides Wormwood's armour.

Klei handles combat with just slapping bonus % damage/armour buffs on things.

The only unique "combat" mechanic in dst I'd say is.... Fire?

Fire forces mobs to "freak out" and acting as a form of crowd control, but it also does some damage over time. 

Sounds fun... Right?

Only Willow can take advantage of this properly, unless you want to use scales on Dfly's armour.

You can't even really use traps during combat... Which is really sad.

Even 99% of the creatures have stale and boring kiting patterns.

But yeah, what's your guys' opinion on all of this?

Do you like the combat system? Do you dislike it? Let's share some controversial opinions on the game's pretty much, core mechanic!

[ADM]

I like the combat system from the characters itself, we have a very large set of weapons, magic, tools and misc items that make it lovely and so unique, it's great for both PvE & PvP even tho the last one need a manual rebalance which is easily handled with mods.

I'd like to recommand using a Beefalo in combat to anyone who haven't tried yet, it's super comfortable in late game, it can handle most of the boss fight such as Klaus, Dragonfly, all you need is practice, this will save you so much material you use for armors and weapon and replace it with Salt Lick ^^

So this is the part I like, the things I dislike instead is the mob combat and AI, some are okay, boss are good, but for example Shadow Duellist are frankly stupid, you can do some nice tricks with them but casual fighting with them is useless, I'm not going to explain how to make them better one more cause we've all repeated it billions of time and I'd be very sad if nothing is changed once Maxwell get his rework. I'd also like some of the other AI to get an actual sense of logic like pigs and bunnyman waiting for their death behind walls in shoutius/catapult farms or same mob wars, I've said it on other topic but I'd really like if they could just understand they cannot do anything if they're not in range from their attacker... not really a "combat system" thing but I hate it so bad... sorry. Other thing you mentioned that I dislike are traps, the combat one, I don't think the Tooth Trap or the Bee Mine are especially bad, the first one is nice to use your extra resources (I stopped using them but they do a pretty honest job), the other couldn't really get any sort of improvement, maybe stun mobs for longer or make them loose agro ? :think: no actually I think we could use a larger set of traps and the inspiration has no limit when it comes to survival traps, things that give temp debuff, like slowness, I've made a Honey Turf mod a long time ago and that sort of thing could be pretty useful in vanilla.

Overall, it's nice, I just don't like mob behaviour in combat

[Nikki Darks]

Oh I've completely forgot about minions/beefalo.

Beefalo have a major flaw of being the utter snooze fest, most bafflingly slow and boring proccess in the entire game.

Beefalo taming is hellishly boring.

And minions are just like, either hit and run, but you're not the one doing it.

Or it's just, plain.

But yeah, I do kinda want to see each character have a unique of acting in combat, like Willow using fire or Wormwood's armour!

And omg yes! The AI just kills all the fun in combat, specifically AFW just sitting in a ring of lureplants and never attacking...

[ZTheNecromancer]

I...don't really have an opinion. Everytime a thread like this pops up say some along the lines of "Do you like ___?" Or "The ____ in DST" "The ____ is _____". I can't really answer these kinds of questions because I like it as it is and just don't have anymore to say about it. 'M more of a kick-back-and-see-what-happens kinda person y'know? I'm not the kinda person that says "I don't like ______ and I think it should be changed to do _____.". I just...don't.

So...meh. It's fine.

[Nikki Darks]

1 minute ago, ZeeDragon said:

I...don't really have an opinion. Everytime a thread like this pops up say some along the lines of "Do you like ___?" Or "The ____ in DST" "The ____ is _____". I can't really answer these kinds of questions because I like it as it is and just don't have anymore to say about it. 'M more of a kick-back-and-see-what-happens kinda person y'know? 

So...meh.

I mean, you probably have an opinion? 

Like everybody else. These posts are here to share opinions and exchange opinions from different points of view!

[ZTheNecromancer]

3 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

I mean, you probably have an opinion? 

Like everybody else. These posts are here to share opinions and exchange opinions from different points of view!

That's the problem, I don't. I know it exists, and I know that some people like it or hate it. But to me it's just a mechanic in a game, and I got nothing more to add. It's just....a mechanic in a game. 

[1bubbainpa]

Perhaps this is why I’ve been liking Walter so much recently. He offers an alternative to the current melee meta we have for a glass cannon-risqué character.

He feels like an actual ranger character, where you have to make sure you have enough resources to craft ammo, with various rounds being more available as the game progresses and resources become more plentiful. Additionally, Woby helps further improve this play style, serving as not only a mount for Walter to easily reposition throughout the fight, but for extra storage so you can actually hold a large amount of slingshot ammo without sacrificing inventory space.

Disregarding how useful he currently is, Walter feels like a breath of fresh air in combat, where you always have the option to go for ranger combat, whereas before ranged combat was heavily limited to mass-producing blow darts and weather pains.

[sinisterrkid]

I agree with the painting of the combat system as the most lacking system of the game, but I don't imagine how it could be improved. Never even seen a mod that presents a better alternative. (If there is one I would love to give it a try!)

So while I agree with you, I mostly align with what @ADM said. I have a lot of fun with the different cheeses as well, what can I say? 

I totally get people who love fighting being uderwhelmed, though. Even Dragonfly fight has become more of a meditative experience than an intense one for me, lol

[Frashaw27]

The combat system in DST is one of the best cases of simplicity being pushed to make something engaging and feeling rewarding upon completion. The game doesn't have to rely upon giant, complex combat to make it interesting, it instead relies on the things that you are engaging with to make it interesting. A mass majority of the enemies have a unique mechanic to make fighting them uniquely interesting to the other species. While I will admit that mobs like spiders has a little blandness, other abilities mobs can completely change how you approach them. Abilities like the Mushgnomes spores, Beargers proclivity of knocking stuff free from your hands, Lureplants mass guarding from eyeplants, and a Mactusks infinite blowdart all make the player approach each of them differently, thus enhancing their uniqueness. Even if it's very slightly, you still have to see how they all force the player to act differently to avoid being hit. This get greatly enhanced during each of the boss fights in the game. Deerclops' freezing hit forces you to prepare and maintain a fire or take extra care to not get hit by it, the Moose Goose makes the player not only keep the number of loops  they have taken to attack you but also to carefully and strategically dispatch each of her spawn, Antlion forces the player to keep and maintain a way to either keep eluding their spikes or how amount of armor you need to burn to slay them, and Dragonfly forces the player of how to deal with their larva and how to calm them down. Again, while all of these example do have the same way to slay them, the processes to fight them can be wildly different. The way that DST relying on it's enemies is actually relatively common in the gaming world. Games like Breath Of The Wild and the Binding of Isaac both have realitvely simple combat system, however the different types of enemies and learning how each one them are unique in how you deal with them and they deal with you. While they could very well add a lot of flash and intrigue to the combat system, it just simply doesn't need it. While I will concede that a few bosses (ancient Guardian) and enemies (danglin depth dwellers and spider warriors) need reworking, but the combat system, within its simplicity, allows for a lot of complexities in its application. 

TL;DR: While there are a few aspects that were lacking, the simple combat system allows each of the enemies/bosses to feel unique from each other and allows for some creativity on how you go about it.

[Mike23Ua]

I think that the combat of DST could and in the case of Forge already has been improved.. but- Klei would probably have to build a whole new game engine for anything super fancy so my opinion without turning this into a TL:DR combat is fine as is, I like it and if they improve it GREAT! If they never do? I won’t lose any sleep over it

but if you want to read the TL:DR I’ll put my opinion in a spoiler.

Spoiler

The one thing I dislike about combat in DST is how most your problems can be solved by just walking far enough away in a straight line and then hitting them as they line up in a single file line trying to attack you one at a time. (Trust me you can do this with Bee’s & Spiders both..)

When their A.I. Could have them improved a bit to move about in a circular motion and then attack at you. 
same with the Nightmare hands that come to steal your fires at night, sure it’s a passive mechanic but one that can be solved by simply standing in front of the hand that never repositions itself and attempts to steal your fire from any other direction.

I hear all this talk about an Uncompromising Mod.. but I highly doubt that a Mod would deliver the kinds of advanced A.I. tactics I Want and Expect from Klei if they were ever to deliver their own version of a Uncompromising Mode.

Until a recent patch fix you could even have stayed Insane and simply out run shadow creatures till they Despawn out of the map.. Meanwhile, I see animations Already in the game of shadow hands grabbing my character and holding them down during something as a purely cosmetic clothing change animation and there I sit thinking.. people couldn’t out run these shadow creatures when at 0 Sanity if these same animations were used to have hands grab hold of and hold the player in place for a few seconds.

PIGMAN A.I. Is more intelligent and engaging then fighting Spiders/Bees at least pigs DO Reposition and attack from new angles.

My final thoughts are that the combat and more importantly the enemy A.I. Involved in combat.. Could use some tweaks, & improvements & offer a brand new exciting way to play.. but to do that would probably require a whole new game engine- so would it really be a worthwhile investment for Klei to embark upon?

 

 

[Hornete]

I think it's fine, and I personally like the simplicity of it. Of course I love the brand new options of combat Walter, beefalo and some others have brought. But a whole rework to combat akin to Forge? Nah, I dont really want that. Combat is cool but it shouldnt be the focus of this game, I feel like so many people just want combat! and a cool epic boss! all the time. Personally combat is one of the last mechanics I'd be interested in expanding.

[ShadowDuelist]

The combat system is technically fine, I think, I mean many popular games including MOBAS have the exact same system of hitting and dodging with right timings, the main difference in DST is that you have to know how to manage your inventory, and that the "special" effects of attacks are very few.

The forge did a lot of things right, and I think we're slowly seeing implementations of that in the base game. I think what could be expanded upon are the weapons effects not just outright boosting damage. For example the fire staff should probably behave more like in the forge, instead of a ranged ignition tool. How to balance that is a matter of debate, but I think you get the idea.

4 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Perhaps this is why I’ve been liking Walter so much recently. He offers an alternative to the current melee meta we have for a glass cannon-risqué character.

Walter is indeed a cool alternative, but also somewhat missing opportunity. I think his greatest perks with the slingshot should be crowd control, over damage: The poop pellets should probably have a longer lasting effect, specially on mobs that instantly re-aggro, like hounds. The freezing pellet should probably have a small splash radius (like a flingo snowball) and the slow pellet... I dont know.. probably get some AOE too? or leave a small area on the ground for a few seconds that all enemies touching it get slowed, or something, it's just not that useful for how expensive it is...

But the point is that maybe with the combination of speed, freezing, de-aggro and slowing he should be keeping enemies busy while slowly dealing damage at range OR letting other damage dealers (Wigfrid, Wolfgang, Wendy, Weremoose) do the real damage while he keeps them busy. I think that would add a lot of "uniqueness" to his combat style.

The weremoose, having a special AOE attack offers a completely unique way to fight as you can use the charge to attack, dodge, reposition, flee, catch up on far away enemies, or damage many enemies at a time. Wortox also offers a unique way to fight having a permanent dodge perk, and a unique healing. Wendy has a permanent AOE with Abigail, and with correct positioning you can also use Abi as a mobile shield.

Wicker is due for a rework still but even today, being able to spam sleepytime stories, gives her a unique approach to fights. However given how the sleep effects works on some mobs, its only useful in certain situations, but that kind of approach of fights could certainly be expanded as well.

TL;DR: It's not so bad, it could grow in both niche character specific things, and new weapon effects and uses.

 

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

So how does a game manage to have such a painfully, noticeably bland and boring system that's one of the most important parts of the entire game?

By not having combat be one of the most important parts of the entire game. Combat overall is a rather minor part of the game. Think about how much time you spend exploring in the early game. All the time you spend finding food. All the time you spend relocating early game resources. All the time you spend creating structures and making a base. All the time you spend gathering various resources. All the time you spend doing absolutely anything except fighting, and then all the time you spend fighting.

Most things are killed quickly enough where the simplistic combat system doesn't really get noticed. What all lives long enough for you to notice? 4 bosses that appear once every 2 or 3 hours, then a handful of more bosses that you have to go out of your way to fight. Not a major part of the overall game.

Could the combat system be better? Sure. Does it need to be better? Not really, it's sufficient at what it does. 

[Pikapikap]

imo It might be interesting to modify the attack methods of mobs and bosses, such as random attack intervals, new skills? or increase some of their own health or armor

[Minitte]

When i play, I just hold down the attack button and just tank the damage.

Maybe DS New Home will have some new mechanics. I think I saw a staff cause an explosion or something.

[Zeklo]

I definitely want more diversity in kiting. Most are just hit x time than back off. Rinse and repeat.

Sentrypedes require backing off twice before the rinse and repeat which is simple yet refreshing compared to most everything.

I think if enemies/bosses had more difficult patterns we wouldn't have such massively tedious health walls-which I personally detest.

[Majestix]

Personally I love the Fuelweaver fight. Also, regarding

3 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

It's probably one of the reasons people never bother with Misery Toadstool

I don't know about "people", but me personally, I will kill the misery toadstool on any world that I plan to play for any extended period of time, since her blueprint is essential to me for multiplying shroom skins.

[Owlrust]

I'm just sick of everything revolving around fighting in general, personally. I'd like to see more creative ever-present threats that give more diversity to the non-combat oriented characters as well.

[prezera]

I think the best solution for this would be exaggerating the uniqueness of every fight. Like someone else said, every fight should be unique even if at it's core you hit the enemy a couple times and back off. Like how beefalo will defend other beefalo that got hit around them. A way to exaggerate that would be to perhaps make the beefalo yell every third attack and make every beefalo near you in a huge (bigger than hitting) distance aggro. Ofc that's just an example and probably a bad one at that, but you get the point.

[Hornete]

31 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

I'm just sick of everything revolving around fighting in general, personally. I'd like to see more creative ever-present threats that give more diversity to the non-combat oriented characters as well.

This!!!! Please!

[BezKa]

I like it the way it is. I've been playing Hamlet with Wheeler recently and still cannot use her Dodge properly, I'm just too used to normal style of combat (that still hasn't brought me much success... There's so many bosses I am not able to kill. Something to experience in the future). And fights don't fail to make me excited so I can't ask for more. 

[chirsg]

When it comes to combat, the first thing that will come to most people's mind is pvp. Dst does not have a combat system suited to that. 
For pve, it certainly works for what the game is. This isn't a fighting game. You could play any version of don't starve and never fight in order to survive indefinitely in the world.

It's a very barebones system and once any player get over the wall of intimidation they reserve for themselves, it's simple.

What's punishing about don't starve but less punishing in don't starve together is how death affects you. That's probably what gave combat a lot of it's weight. You slip up in don't starve and your entire world is just gone. No 120 second timer, no life giving amulet bailing you out, you're just dead.

Playing together, it's easy to step back and see what combat basically is in the game. Hit and run. That isn't to say that it's boring.

You have the fuelweaver fight that demands use from a lot of tools if you want to undertake it yourself. If you want to kill klaus hitless or without damage as quickly as possible, you have to have speed augmentation available and it becomes a different sort of hit and run. A lot more engaging.

And as other characters, fighting is different. You have wortox who can do soul tricks, willow with bernie, and my personal favorite, woodie's moose.
Each charge has to be calculated enough where you won't be running into danger.

Against crowds, fighting is also crisis management. things can tend to get out of hand and your basic hit and run won't always work because in some situations, getting a hit in means getting hit 10 times yourself so you need to figure out how to succeed in that or just retreat.

It depends on how you look at it.

For the most part, dst's combat works well for what it needs to do, but for pvp, it just doesn't work or prove which player is the better one.


I would totally be in favor of a different game mode catered to pvp with emphasis on proper spread out hitboxes when throwing out moves, a dodge mechanic perhaps, keybinds, blocking etc. But even then, it would probably require a totally different team separate from klei. I won't give the cookie cutter answer that's the trend with people on this forum where they say "I'd rather klei just work on dst update, wah wah wah."

But the sentiment isn't lost on me. Klei's staff probably have other things on their plate than worrying about the combat in the context of pvp, but again, if it's feasible, having a different team work on a new pvp game mode would be pretty nice to have. 

[Articestone]

If you want some thing better than the current combat system, you can just use mods and yes Mike23Ua if you happen to see this, i know console players can't use mods but life is unfair deal with it, eventually mods will be added to console. 

[Well-met]

it's perfectly fine and I can think of no other game that does it that way.

[ryvrdrgn14]

The combat system seems fine to me and is easy for most people to pick up and understand. At the end of the day, anyone with latency will just stack armor and pierogi to facetank.

They can add a character that rewards dodging by having his or her damage increase with each attack as long as he or she doesn't get hit or  take damage.

I am not expecting DST to have things like chain combos using different keys. That would be silly. If I wanted that kind of complexity I'd load up Street Fighter V or Guilty Gear.