I hope the QoL system gets a large review because it's taking a route I don't like

[Alfons100]

I suppose this could be considered a suggestion but I would like to discuss this with all of you. The Quality of Life system at the moment does not have the fitting content to make it a mechanic like everything else in the game. It's a hard to play-creative-with mechanic unlike mostly everything else in the game. You could call it a boring Check-list which actually doesn't add much to the game.

Okay so, what Quality of Life does is generalize all the 'goodies' your colony spends into one thing, instead of multiple small, small Stress bonuses. And I think thats nice. Instead of having a free -20% Stress because of the Messhall and Latrine pretty much every colony has, it is made into one little neat tab. But in my opinion, there's a lot of missed potential.

How do you fulfil the QoL needs as it increases with the job-tiers? Luxuries, of course. But other than good food, there are not many creative alternatives. Because you see, ONI is a complex game, where you can tackle issues in a plethora of ways. Lack resources in this? Do that. Lack the research? Do that instead. Not the right critters? Do that instead! But here's the QoL increasing items we have now, discluding food:

Arcade Cabinet: Gives +2 QoL but needs a small amount of power, hosts 2 duplicants.

Phonobox: At the moment, it is free and has no downsides (Probably temp), gives Duplicants +2 QoL

Water Cooler: Chat with friends, needs friends of course. +1 QoL.

And.. thats about it. But notice the pattern in these, they're very simple and uses the bare minimum of all the methods you could satisfy Duplicant needs with. All the obscure production methods they could've used, gone. Just make one, plop one down and now there's literally nothing else you can be creative with them. And thats the key to my issue. The Devs have said that one thing they really want to keep with this game is that nothing is a 'one stepped thing'. Want to use a toilet? Use the waste after to make compost, or use the PO2 for whatever you want. Want to breathe? Might aswell utilize the Carbon dioxide they breathe out into something. 

So what does the QoL mechanic do compared? Nothing. Unless its temp or a lot of content is planned, then this update would've been an 'Expressional Upgrade Mark I' like the grand Ranching updates. If the methods you got to increase QoL were varied, complex but gave you interesting choices to what fits your crew of colonists. Then it would've been fine. But right now it doesn't seem to do that. No amount of basic machines will fix that like the 'Phonobox' or 'An Arcade Cabinet' when their functions are so simple. The only 'gate' that prevents you from using them is Research and a teeny amount of power. 

I have given my examples in other places and posts for creative ways to increase QoL. Such as brewing juice in a manual-tank, pumping it up, bottling it with glass and consuming it for a +4 or +5 for your efforts. Maybe gives an additional point if it's nice and cool. Maybe a new drecko variant called the 'Gum drecko' which when shorn gives a sort of tasty bubblegum. Pick it up and use Plastic at an Apothecary to make edible Bubblegum for +4. But sometimes duplicants will leave ugly trash on the floor as an additional downside. Perhaps you got lots of Decor you want to use such as Longhair slicksters or Gold tiles, make a Scenery bench to utilize that +200 decor, the more decor, the more effective the scenery bench (Starts at +2, goes up to +5 depending on decor). 

To improve the current phonobox and arcade cabinet. I would suggest that they may become worn-out and will need a rework. Arcade Cabinet will require a scientist to rewrite it which consumes a large amount of time. And the Phonobox will need a Creative person to remake it as well.

These are all multi-stage proccesses like the devs intended. Each favoring different playstyles and colony commodities, like Ranching, Decor or simply Water. The Arcade Cabinet eats power and exretes QoL. No more, no less. Same with the Phonobox unless it's temp. Food acts as what I described, there are many foods all with downsides and upsides, got little water? Then go with Ranching. It gives choices that are not simple. But are choices nontheless. Choices that use the mechanics the game has, like pressure, material consumption and such alike. If the ideas I stated above happend, now it's less of a Checklist to have built Rooms for Messhalls and Latrines, built Arcade Cabinet and the Phonobox. Or simply feed them good food. With more Recreational methods, this mechanic would've actually been needed.

----------------------------------------------

And this has been my rant on why the QoL is a lot of missed potential and I hope the devs either put in on hold, add some meaningful content to it, and then release it, instead of leaving a mechanic with some purposeless 'QoL dispensers' to fix it.

 

 

[Grimgaw]

Very, very well put. Thank you.

[Yunru]

37 minutes ago, Alfons100 said:

The Quality of Life system at the moment does not have the fitting content to make it a mechanic like everything else in the game.

A feature just put into testing doesn't have full content? Perish the thought!

37 minutes ago, Alfons100 said:

It's a hard to play-creative-with mechanic unlike mostly everything else in the game.

Except Decor.

 

The rest of your post is just a rant on how the "Expression Update Testing Branch" isn't the "Expression Update Release Candidate" yet.

[Alfons100]

19 minutes ago, Yunru said:

A feature just put into testing doesn't have full content? Perish the thought!

Except Decor.

 

The rest of your post is just a rant on how the "Expression Update Testing Branch" isn't the "Expression Update Release Candidate" yet.

Usually so is each testing branch feature fledged but each feature is rough around the edges, but that's always fine. They did state that there's still effects missing and the Schedule feature isn't in yet. But not anything about any content, buildings being not implemented yet. They did actually add a Phonobox in the latest patch but, I am not sure where they're going with this. Maybe they make a hail-mary and changes things drastically. 

Not sure what you meant with the Decor thing, as in, Decor is a flat mechanic? Well there are many ways to reach high decor (but not many reasons for it. I agree wit that), if thats what you mean? Please clarify

[Grimgaw]

42 minutes ago, Yunru said:

The rest of your post is just a rant on how the "Expression Update Testing Branch" isn't the "Expression Update Release Candidate" yet

Quote

We encourage you to comment on the game as you're currently experiencing it, as we'll be considering your feedback while we develop these systems.

From EU patch notes.

[BlueLance]

I completely agree with the OP, Brewing beer or something similar would be great, things we need to do to make the game and dupes lives interesting.

I would rather dupes get a break signal, and during this break they go pee, eat or relax all depending on their needs. The signal does not have a time scale it is just a point in time where a dupe goes "Am I hungry? Yes? Go eat, Do I need to pee? Yes? go pee, am i overworked? Yes? Go relax." This way dupes wont spend 1/6th of a cycle just standing around if their hunger and bladder demands are met. 

But i do agree with everything in the OP, nothing to argue about, it is sound and until the scheduler comes out, everything said in the post rings true.

[Yunru]

38 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

From EU patch notes.

Doesn't stop your feedback from being worthless.

58 minutes ago, Alfons100 said:

Usually so is each testing branch feature fledged but each feature is rough around the edges, but that's always fine. They did state that there's still effects missing and the Schedule feature isn't in yet. But not anything about any content, buildings being not implemented yet. They did actually add a Phonobox in the latest patch but, I am not sure where they're going with this. Maybe they make a hail-mary and changes things drastically. 

Not sure what you meant with the Decor thing, as in, Decor is a flat mechanic? Well there are many ways to reach high decor (but not many reasons for it. I agree wit that), if thats what you mean? Please clarify

True, but personally I think that's because they want to know where to go before adding those things.
As for decor, it, like QoL atm, lacks a reason beyond the minimum threshold, and it lacks the mechanics of all other... mechanics. You just put some positive decor down/remove some negative decor and... nothing else.

 

EDIT: But yes, things like your suggestion for brewing stuff? That's feedback. The rest where it boils down to "this should already be in" kinda... isn't. And it drowns out the bits that matter.

[Sasza22]

4 hours ago, Alfons100 said:

You could call it a boring Check-list which actually doesn't add much to the game.

The thing is most of the stuff already was checklist. Once you build outhouses you made a door for extra stress relief, then you would make a mess hall to further reduce stress. Barracks didn`t add much and some people just didn`t build beds at all so dupes slept at their work stations for max efficiency. I feel like the update just cleans stuff up (or is meant to but it`s not finished). Like dupes dropping stuff randomly and going to eat something. Now they don`t do that unless it`s break time. It`s cleaner and possibly more effective. Most likely easier to control, when they allow us to change the schedule at least.

[Khullag]

2 hours ago, Yunru said:

Doesn't stop your feedback from being worthless.

I find your feedback about his feedback worthless. 

[nvzboy]

How about we involve the showers in this? Make having access to a good shower give qol can be a solution.

 Currently there is not a lot of use for showers and this is a golden opportunity. How about making the qol bonus dependant on the water temperature? A freezing or scalding shower might not give the same bonus as perfect water, how you achieve that can be done in lots of ways. This way the trade is : qol and pwater for clean water at x temperature.

[Lilalaunekuh]

5 hours ago, Alfons100 said:

Arcade Cabinet will require a scientist to rewrite it which consumes a large amount of time. And the Phonobox will need a Creative person to remake it as well.

Ok if read many post about possible changes to make QoL a bit more interesting, but I must say, that this is maybe the best idea I found so far

[ImDaMisterL]

Hey guys, let's keep discussions friendly and without personal attacks.

[Alfons100]

1 hour ago, nvzboy said:

How about we involve the showers in this? Make having access to a good shower give qol can be a solution.

 Currently there is not a lot of use for showers and this is a golden opportunity. How about making the qol bonus dependant on the water temperature? A freezing or scalding shower might not give the same bonus as perfect water, how you achieve that can be done in lots of ways. This way the trade is : qol and pwater for clean water at x temperature.

Yeah I almost forgot about the old Polluted water mak- I meant, Showers. They should also give a QoL bonus but also dependent on water temperature. Feels strange that they're a missed oppurtunity to give QoL.

(New Paragraph vvv)

But truth be told, the QoL isn't gamebreaking but of course it needs a little rebalancing. Not sure why the Messhall is so much more valuable than all other Rooms? A nice balance to the rooms would be that they only give the QoL bonus if there's only one Toilet/Bedroom in them. Maybe add a new room which is the opposite of the Barrack which only has one bed, no Stamina-regen bonus like the Barrack but it gives +2 QoL while the Barrack gives none? This gives a choice to waste space on nice little Bedrooms or simply put everyone in a Barrack. 

[BadlyBurned]

Just now, ImDaMisterL said:

Hey guys, let's keep discussions friendly and without personal attacks.

Ya.. too many people are taking this kind of feedback seriously. I for one enjoyed reading this post, its said exactly what was on my mind and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this about the new update.

I like that break time will add a new way for the dupes to seem less mechanical and flat, that was something sorely missing. However, I think something like this requires a huge assortment of options for accomplishing a QoL increase, otherwise its just a 2 minute task of creating a break room with some arcades and junk and then moving on to the more fun content in the game.

I LOVE the beer brewing idea.. that is the kind of QoL increase that I could sink my teeth into.

They could also add some variety to QoL options for each Dupe. Not everyone likes video games, you could have some Dupes who get QoL increases from being near plants and nature, so you'd need to make a greenroom of some sorts for them to relax in. Others like sports and activity, so maybe a automatic batting cage?

I hope they don't give up on this, I'd even be happy with a EU Mark II if it gave us some meaty content to go with it.

[malloc]

5 hours ago, BadlyBurned said:

EU Mark II

No Brexit discussions please

[blash365]

@Alfons100

Keep in mind that it is the preview branch and that there are most likely some extensions to the QoL system shipping with each of the patches until it goes live (water cooler -> arcade machine -> phonobox, you might see a trend here).

We will surely see the decor system being hooked up soon.

I can also imagine more bonuses for things like

•  "working in your favorite job" (assign dupes based on their interest),
• "having more time off" (change schedule to trade productivity for QoL),
• breathing clean air (setup air conditioning in your base)
• having an acceptable temperature around you (heat/cool your base)
• not having to do heavy lifting (automation solves)
• spend time with your favorite pet (reward some unique perks on dupes)
• etc.

Constructive ideas would be better than shredding the system apart, when it is clearly not yet fully released.

 

I know you gave some constructive ideas in your OP, but they simply boil down to:

• craft item x continously to gain buff y, which gives you z QoL

So you are basically suggesting a different kind of food.

QoL should be something different. It does not necessarily be hard to achieve (it already is in terms of food btw). But it gives you some guidelines on how to design the "social life" in your colony. Maybe there is just the path of food, fonoboxes and friends at the moment. But there might be some different paths opening up in the future:

• eco colony: gain QoL from sustainability (manual, mealwood and morbs)
• hunter colony: gain QoL by trophy hunting (hunting, hatches and hydrogen, if you will)
• tech colony: gain QoL by automation, ai and aem... robots

Some of these QoL modifiers might even be mutually exclusive.

 

Now that would be a new system, that can actually enjoyable to play around with. The starting stone for it is already there.

Please dont make it another food-system!

[Alfons100]

@blash365

It is a good point you bring up that it could become food quality 2.0. But arent your QoL ideas of temperature ambience and such just stress 2.0? Aren’t we just slowly stripping parts of stress and putting it into QoL, which causes stress? So we effectively havent progressed much at all. Adding bubble gum or drinkable juice is all optional, you choose say, 2 or 3 special rec methods to fulfill a max expectancy duplicant. You don’t have to use every Rec tool there is in the game. Just that there are more options to it. All ways to raise QoL doesnt have to be food or consumption based.

But you have some cool ideas that dupes may want better work-place things like less hauling or getting annoyed when they have to hold their breath too much which can affect QoL. In another post I did mention that Duplicants ’temporary’ moodlets like holding your breath or good/bad decor and bad temperature should stick if they’ve been experiencing for too long for say, a cycle or so. Maybe if it begins to ’stick’ it will slightly affect QoL.

And some duplicants should desire petting cute animals as a leisure activity. Not all should, in my opinion. It should be a trait, ’Critter Crazed’ (I dunno, really. Precise balance aint my thing.)

and, no? I did suggest that the Scenery bench allows you to look at high amounts of decor, and in another thread I had an idea that they sometimes go to a safe place to the surface on the asteroid to gaze upon the stars... these are some non-food Rec methods. 

[BadlyBurned]

I think a simple solution would fix most of this. Keep stress and QoL COMPLETELY separate.

QoL could instead effect bonuses rather than negatives. If your QoL is high, your dupes can move slightly faster, carry more weight, hold their breath longer, eat less calories, sleep less, or whatever else people can come up with to slightly improve dupes performance.

That way multiple QoL options could be implemented in a way where its obviously not mandatory, but would greatly improve the progress of the game if you manage it correctly.

Just a thought  

 

Examples to expand on this:

Arcade could give bonus to research or anything "computer" related

Water cooler could give bonus to Kindness

Weights or gym equipment could give bonuses to carrying weight

Casual painting or sculpting could give bonuses to Art

Pruning a Bonsai tree could give bonuses to farming

Brewing beer or wine could give bonuses to cooking

Etc etc.. 

[Skrivener]

5 hours ago, blash365 said:

Some of these QoL modifiers might even be mutually exclusive.

I like this. It could also be mutually exclusive per dupe based on traits - a dupe might get a negative or a positive from the same food/décor/etc depending on their personal preferences.

[QuantumPion]

I agree with the OP. I would like the relaxation mechanics to be more like the ranching mechanics which requires continuous effort to produce results, as opposed to bathrooms/bedrooms/etc where once they are built, they are pretty automatic. Perhaps relaxation rooms can be small spaces placed near remote work areas for dupes to regain stamina in between jobs. The higher their stamina, the faster they work, and if they run out of stamina, their movement and work speed is reduced to a minimum. In late game, there would be more advanced things to build, such as a bar and brew beer, or make a theater and have artist dupes perform. These activities, if done at the end of the day, give bonus stamina or additional benefits for the next day or something like that. Just throwing out ideas. I think the current gameplay situation, where dupes just hang around at the end of the day, is really boring and just time consuming with no benefit to the player.

[Quince]

The current QoL system feels like the beginning of something great. Good enough for now, but I hope there are further expansions to the psychological part of the game. I agree with the OP that it seems just too simple. Creating luxury items can be it's whole own industry. For example there should be "Studio" stations requiring time from creative dupes and high-end resources to create records and video game cartridges which in turn are needed for video game consoles and sonophones. Farming pincha peppernuts is an existing example of something you would do but only for improving the quality of life for duplicants.Other quality of life improvements should require a similar amount of effort.

[TheOlz]

My only concern with the QoL as it's been implemented thus far is that it trivializes stress.

I had exosuit engineers eating liceloaf and still holding 0% stress.  That sucks, it's just removed a challenge from the game.

Can we have stress responses be on a sliding scale or something, so they start "misbehaving" at 10% and get worse up to 100% where the dupe stops work for whatever their major response is?

idk, this update seems very lackluster so far, in that it hasn't added any difficulty or complexity, it's just simplified and trivialized an already underwhelming mechanic (ie. stress was already too easy to manage even before this update)

[Oozinator]

57 minutes ago, TheOlz said:

..

idk, this update seems very lackluster so far, in that it hasn't added any difficulty or complexity, it's just simplified and trivialized an already underwhelming mechanic (ie. stress was already too easy to manage even before this update)

Yep. I am interested, how Klei balance that out ^^

[Sevio]

Disclaimer, I haven't had a chance to try the expressive update but I like the idea of QoL acting as a counterbalance to stress, making stress and QoL opposite forces balancing each other out. Dupes can gain stress from various sources (ugly environments, walking through liquids, low oxygen, high/low temperatures etc) and how much of this punishment they can endure depends on their quality of life.

Stress wouldn't be a counter that trends to 0 or 100% depending on if they're being too stressed or not but a value that will trend to an average value based on how long or how many stressful things happen to them over the course of several cycles. It would be very hard or impossible to let this reach 0 unless your dupes are allowed to idle and have fun in their recreational area for several cycles. Conversely, putting them through tons of stress wouldn't make the value ever increase, it would just trend to a very high amount that reflects everything that happens to them every cycle

Countering stress is QoL, which is again a value that trends to an average based on the recreational activities and other positive things (like living/working in areas with exceptional decor) happening to them. Without recreation and no other positive things that happen to them, this value would trend to 0 and spending many cycles doing only social activities and recreation would raise it very high.

So how do you figure when stress responses happen without a 0-100% slider? You could have certain breaking points defined when stress starts to approach or exceed QoL. For example dupes will start making unhappy faces when stress is at 50% of QoL, start making unhappy/stressed animations which slow them down from work when stress is at 75% of QoL and do their full stress response if stress reaches 100% of QoL.

[AndreyKl]

28 minutes ago, Sevio said:

Dupes can gain stress from various sources (ugly environments, walking through liquids, low oxygen, high/low temperatures etc) and how much of this punishment they can endure depends on their quality of life.

Dupe becoming ill regularly or multiple dupes at a time should also be a stress source. Getting ill one or two times is fine, but constantly...

14 hours ago, blash365 said:

water cooler -> arcade machine -> phonobox

Suggestion, Dresser:

1. Gives nightly QOL bonus since dupes have a place to store their clothes during night (may be tidy job can clean those)

2. Can store multiple clothes so you can reassign closes to what you need in the morning (or dupe can switch depending on next location/ if dresser's priority is higher then tasks' priority, dupe will switch closes to more appropriate ones before moving, but this will require higher closes selection), or may be allow a 'dressing' schedule (sleepware, free time cloth, work cloth).

3. The more clothes there is in a dresser, the bigger is passive QOL bonus.

4. Single set of clothes being worn for too long to harm QOL.