reverse the drywall changes

[Craigjw]

This is just an obtuse change, please reverse this.

[lilibat]

Hopefully they will revisit this because it seems like unintended consequences that are pretty game breaking for late game.

[M.C.]

Agreed. The cure shouldn't be worse than the original problem.

[6Havok9]

On 2/2/2019 at 3:54 PM, Nitroturtle said:

If the point of this change is to avoid being able to add extra mass to normal tiles, I would much rather see them change drywall to only serve the purpose of providing a background but act as a zero mass object with regards to heat transfer.  That way, it could still serve it's purpose to block off space exposure, but would provide no other benefits.  We already have tempshift plates if we want a backgound object that transfers heat.

This seems the most appropriate solution, and completely eliminates all the calculations about heat transfer.

However, if it's gonna obey the current laws of building, particularly those of temp preservation and clamping, it's gonna mess up all those uber cool (cool because awesome, not because cold) temperature layers quite a bit. People like @Nitroturtle and many others, including me, may exhibit stress responses if you do that, and that may lead to catastrophic colony failure. Maybe prevent them (the drywalls, not the players) from being visible in the temp layer, and give them a fixed temperature. Or even, no temperature. Just like a common asteroid backwall.

[0xFADE]

Oof. That sounds like a pretty bad oversight. 

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

@Ipsquiggle I was hoping for some developer input on this. Is this something that will be changed back (even if partially), or are the developers of the opinion doors/airflow/mesh tiles and drywall should not overlap by any means?

[Grimgaw]

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy Welcome to Klei forums. Klei devs don't answer questions.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

27 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy Welcome to Klei forums. Klei devs don't answer questions.

That's not always the case: sometimes on bigger issues they do answer. Like one time we asked for a full breakdown on changes because an update had a lot of "ninja updates" in it, to which we got a reply. I even have a bit of personal messaging with one of the developers. They do answer from time to time.

The thing I believe that is going in here, is they are looking for a solution, but it's complex as they might are looking into separating tile from door (which I think is not straightforward in the code), hence why we aren't seeing any update adressing this. I do want to verify that and not necessarily advocate false hope.

[Cairath]

I'm pretty sure one ping is enough though.

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy said:

They do answer from time to time.

But if a developer answers the discussion is more or less over.

 

So my thoughts the our collected solutions:

- Complete reroll of the change:

Not really what I want, but something I would prefer to the current state.

- Just allow drywalls behind (pneumatic) doors:

Enough to elimanate the need for numerous liquid locks or tranist tube access points.

- Just allow drywalls behind (pneumatic) doors, mesh and airflow tiles:

Enough to build everything we could do before, without a way to add heat capacity to every tile.

But resizing rooms would still be tedious if you want to prevent a loss of atmosphere.

=> So this would be my prefered one.

- Roll the change back and prevent drywalls from exchanging heat:

I would prefer everything over this solution, but it would make the temperature overlay "more useful".

 

Are there other solutions I missed ? / Which solution would you like ?

[SakuraKoi]

2 hours ago, Grimgaw said:

@ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy Welcome to Klei forums. Klei devs don't answer questions.

Well, before I clicked the link I wanted to retort. "They do. With their actions" and after clicking, well... they indeed do~

and of course they are right. No good will come from a "we will address it", if anything they say in the very forum/tracker for the bug reports: They acknowledge it or they fixed it for whatever release.

Heck, in the first bug report linked, they actually replied before the preview that they will give it some thought and alas, what was provided might not have been all to convincing, the construct would have done quite as well with no mesh/airflow tiles.

Currently I also see no proper bug report either (if there is one, it should be linked in the first post) and yes, I'd call it a bug for of course do doors in space need walls when you build rooms there.

[Grimgaw]

4 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

Well, before I clicked the link I wanted to retort. "They do. With their actions" and after clicking, well... they indeed do~

and of course they are right.

And yet nearly a year after and countless feedback/bug reports Steam Turbine remains unchanged. Colour me unimpressed.

[biopon]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

And yet nearly a year after and countless feedback/bug reports Steam Turbine remains unchanged. Colour me unimpressed.

The turbine is broken, useless for its intended purpose, yet fun. It's also not worth "fixing" without redesigning it from the ground up. The drywall change however is the polar opposite: it wasn't broken, it's mundane, and it's one line of code.

[Stoned]

Please reverse it. With no functioning doors and mesh tiles the space biom is just broken

[Grimgaw]

47 minutes ago, biopon said:

The turbine is broken, useless for its intended purpose, yet fun. It's also not worth "fixing" without redesigning it from the ground up. The drywall change however is the polar opposite: it wasn't broken, it's mundane, and it's one line of code.

I'm not advocating not fixing the drywall. I was merely pointing out that Devs don't answer direct questions on forums and that they're rather slow to take feedback on board (if turbine isn't good enough example look how long it took to deal with drip cooling, airlocks or plastic ladders).

[biopon]

1 minute ago, Grimgaw said:

how long it took to deal with drip cooling

That was before my time. I've only been playing the game for a couple of months.

On the other hand however, look how quickly the shattered planet came back after asking.

 

[SakuraKoi]

It seems like somebody never heard of the concept called "priority"... even though it is part of this very game.

[Yunru]

36 minutes ago, SakuraKoi said:

It seems like somebody never heard of the concept called "priority"... even though it is part of this very game.

What's priority got to do with anything?

[Sasza22]

Why not just reverse the change and change the drywall mass to 1kg so the extra mass doesn`t matter? Additionally make it exchange heat only with the tile it`s in so it won`t break insulated walls. This way it works as a proper backwall but it`s temperature doesn`t really matter.

[Miravlix]

While there is no way to deal with mesh and airflow tiles, you can fix door or completely stop using them due to viso-gel.

 

Viso-gel is a better solution as a doorway anyway, as it's a perfect seal between gasses that doesn't break.

 

Horizontal doors can't be replaced with viso-gel though, but I'm not sure that is a big problem. It annoys the crap out of me to lose gas (Needed to heat transfer drills), but since part of the world is open to space or you would have to design something that is solar panel hostile, it isn't the end of the world.

[ToiDiaeRaRIsuOy]

1 hour ago, Miravlix said:

While there is no way to deal with mesh and airflow tiles, you can fix door or completely stop using them due to viso-gel.

 

Viso-gel is a better solution as a doorway anyway, as it's a perfect seal between gasses that doesn't break.

 

Horizontal doors can't be replaced with viso-gel though, but I'm not sure that is a big problem. It annoys the crap out of me to lose gas (Needed to heat transfer drills), but since part of the world is open to space or you would have to design something that is solar panel hostile, it isn't the end of the world.

But viscogel is extremely late game. That's not a solution for most of us as you will most likely need a combination of doors and and drywall to get started with rockets nearer the surface.

Yes, I know there are other fluid locks too. Again, it's not as good a solution as (partially) reversing the change.

[LaShomb]

Wouldn't it just be easiest to make it so that doors, mesh, and airflow tiles block vacuum tiles like the drywall does?

[Yunru]

4 hours ago, Miravlix said:

Viso-gel is a better solution as a doorway anyway, as it's a perfect seal between gasses that doesn't break.

Fluids drain into space.

[Lilalaunekuh]

24 minutes ago, Yunru said:

4 hours ago, Miravlix said:

Viso-gel is a better solution as a doorway anyway, as it's a perfect seal between gasses that doesn't break.

Fluids drain into space.

Nothing prevents you from putting a drywall or tempshift plate behind a tile containing a liquid.

But the seal is not perfect, to cold means you can´t pass and to hot means it evaporates.

[SakuraKoi]

20 hours ago, Yunru said:

What's priority got to do with anything?

Perhaps some fixes are more important than others and listing what is obviously low priority reinforces this point? If one wants their complaints to be heard, then make them valid ones. Why does the point "it is still Early Access" still stand? Because development is not finished.

One can be "unimpressed" when they release ONI and the Steam Turbine is still broken... although aside from the gases replacing and deleting each other, the "broken" mechanic I am aware of is rather the exploit which only requires one port for 2000kW power. So very low priority imho due to it being a balancing issue at most. 99 put of 100 prefer to have plastic ladders built on top of normal ones instead. Who is "the odd one", who maybe even thinks they speak for everyone or the truth?

 

but anyway, one just needed to make a proper bug report and one gets an answer...