Why are door compressors considered an exploit?

[Lancar]

Doors could be nerfed by having them consume different amounts of power depending on the pressure inside them when they're triggered to close.

For example: 120w for every 1k of gas pressure it has to displace, and also slowing their closing speed incrementally to simulate them straining against the load (also ensuring that they keep consuming power at the increased rate for longer sections of time).

Numbers are just examples. Just tweak them to best suit the game balance.

(all this assumes that they would've been changed to require power to operate with automation alone, of course)

[avc15]

Hey I had a really long post here about efficiency, forces, and size of control surfaces, but I can simplify the whole thing to this:

You shouldn't be able to get more energy out of a working fluid than you spent compressing it. (example: in a steam turbine fed by door pumps, the doors put way more energy INTO the steam than what power they actually use - that's a perpetual motion machine)

This is the main problem with door compression, it doesn't use enough power. For comparison, in real life, no efficient power generating equipment uses compression, and the only ones that do are burning a fuel mixed into the compressed air. (NOT steam systems)

So like a few others have mentioned, if Klei just changed doors so that they used as much power compressing gas as a gas pump would, then we'd be golden.

And as a different group mentioned, it shouldn't matter to you what I think. I avoid using door pumps because builds that wouldn't be practical in real life are uninteresting to me. You do what you want.

[Saturnus]

56 minutes ago, Lancar said:

Doors could be nerfed by having them consume different amounts of power depending on the pressure inside them when they're triggered to close.

Just what the game needs. More calculations to drive FPS further down.

[ChickenMadness]

22 hours ago, Iriswaters said:

I would say that it is due to the idea that it should take a very large amount of force, ie: energy, to compress gases beyond a certain point.  The doors should require far more power to close.   Or likely simply be impossible past a certain level.  Yet closing them is no harder than it is when they are just being doors.

 

Using that logic dupes shouldn't be able to manually open any air lock doors. Only strong men competitors would be able to do that irl lol.

The weight of a heavy metal door + gravity alone should be enough force to move gasses about.

[Iriswaters]

The weight of a heavy door, plus gravity, does not have the capacity to push hundreds of psi around.  Compressing gases takes force.   Try to pump up a car tire to full pressure with a hand pump and you will quickly notice this.  Applying force requires energy.  The more force, the more energy.

And no, it shouldn't be possible for a humanoid to close a door in such a manner that it pushes hundreds of kilos of pressurized gas out of the way.  Though in reality airlocks are designed such that closing them is never the hard part, it's opening them that is impossible under pressure.   Dupes of course, can do both.

We hand wave it for the same reason we do them carrying 1800 kilos of rock around, or them falling a km and not getting hurt.  Dupes are magic.  And you can decide the same is true of your doors, plenty of machines in the game have strange physics, but at that point the appeal to realism the OP made breaks down.

No, it is not realistic for doors to act as free air compressors.  That doesn't mean you can't use them that way.  It just means you can't use realism as your justification.

As people have said, everyone has their own lines.  It's personal taste in the end, as realism isn't really a thing here.

[MorsDux]

I like door compression because its a sandbox solution for the storing problem. But if anyone dislikes door compression they can still use liquifying methods to store any gas. CO2 and chlorine is super easy.

Im a bit afraid to use door compression because overpressure tile breaking from gasses may be added any update and would probably mean the end of that game for me unless its oxygen;)

[babba]

13 hours ago, Iriswaters said:

...

The weight of a heavy door, plus gravity, does not have the capacity to push hundreds of psi around.  Compressing gases takes force.   Try to pump up a car tire to full pressure with a hand pump and you will quickly notice this.  Applying force requires energy.  The more force, the more energy.

...

 

->

"Why are door ... considered an exploit?"

 

[Lancar]

On 11/16/2018 at 3:10 PM, Saturnus said:

Just what the game needs. More calculations to drive FPS further down.

Oh yes. I'm fairly certain the 1 single pressure check per door closing operation would slow the game down quite immensely.

[Ixenzo]

28 minutes ago, Lancar said:

1 single pressure check per door closing

More like every tick. It wouldn't make sense only checking upon closing, the door would have to be able to withstand while closed as well.

The entire pressure damage mechanic is completely inconsequential yet takes up processing time.

[Sasza22]

2 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

More like every tick. It wouldn't make sense only checking upon closing, the door would have to be able to withstand while closed as well.

It`s 2 different calculations. 1 is if the doors can close in the pressure inside them. The other is the wall calculation that should make them break if the pressure on one side is too high (this one is currently done for all tiles in the game so it shouldn`t slow things down). The two should be 2 different numbers. The door should whitstand more pressure without leaking than the pressure that would prevent closing.

[mathmanican]

If/when they make doors break because of high pressure, we can easily use one-element-per-tile mechanics to bypass any high pressure issues. Just layer liquid 1.5 tiles above a door compressor that pushes gas upwards. The high pressure will never touch the door as new input gas will immediately bubble above the liquid. We can then infinitely store gas as before by adding a few liquid tiles as a separator. If they change things so gas can compress liquid, then just use two different liquids. Or just use a bubble pump. All of these ideas would get you infinite gas compression (with a door compressor type build) without ever having to worry about the door reaching large pressures. 

The infinite waterfall design (thanks @asveron) has already been modified and optimized by @Saturnus to store liquid infinitely. It currently uses doors but could easily use 3 tile thick walls. 

My point here is that changing pressure requirements on doors will not stop door compressors. It will only make using them harder to do. That will potentially hurt new player satisfaction. It does make sense that doors should break like all other tiles, but at what cost? 

One-element-per-tile FTW.

 

On 11/15/2018 at 1:00 PM, Iriswaters said:

I would say that it is due to the idea that it should take a very large amount of force, ie: energy, to compress gases beyond a certain point. 

Unfortunately Newton's second law F=ma is largely ignored everywhere in the game. Pumps can't realistically push liquids upwards indefinitely without massive amounts of energy.  Yet no one calls pumps an exploit.

The devs clearly intended to have one element per tile. The consequences of this choice will be tons of contraptions that completely defy reality. It's amazing it took us over a year to find the infinite waterfall. There are probably some amazing discoveries yet to come.

 

[DaveSatx]

I really hope they devs have more important things to do than nerf a niche technique for managing gasses and liquids.  They aren't required for most applications.
 

I don't feel It  an exploit to take advantage of physics and i've started using them with power as i believe it should have a cost - and its just plain more efficient.. lol.

[Trego]

3 minutes ago, DaveSatx said:

I really hope they devs have more important things to do than nerf a niche technique for managing gasses and liquids.  They aren't required for most applications.
 

I don't feel It  an exploit to take advantage of physics and i've started using them with power as i believe it should have a cost - and its just plain more efficient.. lol.

Niche technique...definition of niche: an [opening] in a wall.  Doors are in a wall and they [open] and close.  door compression <== > niche technique------ I see what you did there.

[Iriswaters]

7 hours ago, mathmanican said:

 

Unfortunately Newton's second law F=ma is largely ignored everywhere in the game. Pumps can't realistically push liquids upwards indefinitely without massive amounts of energy.  Yet no one calls pumps an exploit.

 

Yes, yes, we know physics are weird, but pumps are still not free, and despite costing more power, they still can only pressurize up to a point.

The point, AGAIN, is ONLY to refute the appeal to realism argument.   That's it.   Anything that points to other elements of unreality are 100% irrelevant.
 

[SakuraKoi]

10 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Unfortunately Newton's second law F=ma is largely ignored everywhere in the game. Pumps can't realistically push liquids upwards indefinitely without massive amounts of energy.  Yet no one calls pumps an exploit.

I see, so because the games are in general so unbelievably unrealistic, there are no exploits, yes? Mayhaps there is something like called common sense which some barely still retain but welp, all I'll really say: Finding an "easy mode": GJ. Toying around with it: Neat. Using it in your play: Better not get addicted.

[avc15]

So for me, the appeal to unreality argument isn't me calling nerf. I don't usually think anything should be nerfed. "Realism" is a slippery slope in a game like this, because new players have to be able to get past cycle 100.

I say, for me, door pumps are unrealistic and therefore uninteresting to build. I'd personally rather build something else.

But then, each of my bases use a build *somewhere* that does something magic, conversely based on what I'm not interested in putting more effort into.

So here's the point. I won't use door pumps, I'll keep working on heat recovery so that I can pump liquid instead. Seems like a more interesting challenge to me. I'm not out there saying "hey remove door pumps". I just don't like using them, because they make some builds that should be complicated very easy.

So my message is: do what you like, and hopefully, don't try to restrict the game based on your beliefs about how things should work.

(edit: I suppose *extremely* unintuitive things should be removed from the game, like, "letting a small amount of liquid mix with a large amount of liquid results in heat loss". Goes to show how much notice I even gave to the drip bug, I can't even explain what its conditions were)

[Saturnus]

Personally I don't use door pumps much if at all in my games. It's been a while since I last had a survival game where I used them. It's not because I see them as exploits, far from it, but because cyclic automation have an adverse effect on FPS and lag in the game.

[babba]

My experience and opinion with exploits and the ONI game: I do not look up exploits and the word "Exploits" can have a broad meaning. Whatever broad meaning has been used in this forum for ONI exploits, I have no interest in them. Even if I am randomly clicking into thread titles and I see "exploit" builds described in detail - I do not pay attention and so I dont remember how they work.

Why is that so for me ?

> The last times in my life where I looked up game exploits, was 30 years ago on the c64 or Amiga. The reasons where that I could not progress beyond a certain point in a game. If one wants to know why people used exploits back then, including console gaming, checkout "AVGN" on utube. It was used for platformer games, simple adventurers etc. where a player just could not progress anymore and basically had to stop playing the game. Barriers which could not be passed.

> The only other exceptions had been the Counterstrike, Battlefield and CoD Series and few other FPS games - To understand how multiplayer wallhacks, aimbots etc. work and how to sometimes be able to identify so-called "Cheaters" or how to run my past dedicated game servers better, adding detection mods etc.

> In ONI, from my point of view, the only person who can suffer and benefit from any kind of "Exploit or cheat" is the player. A player in ONI is victim and offender to himself at the same time. There is no CoOp or multiplayer, currently.

> As mentioned/displayed with images earlier in this thread, I have the feeling that a ONI door should more be a simple door and a high pressure door should be called high-pressure door (hatch?), and be animated "with some high pressure or vacuum stuff going on" and look like it. If you guys want to add penalties, electric draw or whatever on to a door - All fine for me. I am only concerned with the games frame rate, the game speed in terms of door pathfinding with dupes.

> I visually hate looking at ONI pictures with flying arranged doors. But thats me. This would make me call it a visual door exploit. If you want to show me door builds with 200 flying doors, yuck yuck yuck

My 50 cents on ONI doors.

[Oozinator]

14 minutes ago, babba said:

..was 30 years ago on the c64 or Amiga...

me old too!

[babba]

Ozzzzziiieeeee !

I used to be a 1000 year old tree, but then the humans decided to carve ONI wheelchair wheels out of me and they took all my branches and made Sweet Sleat Wheat Beer out of my wood arms. The 200 tile large sandworm then attacked the colony and nearly all dupes, all wheelchairs and all SQWHDUVE had been eaten...Even madBro`s large Exodrives went into its tummy.

My remains turned in to black matter, pulsing in visual door exploits...and the remaining dupes launched me in a pod to space. Do you want to join my last ride ?

@zergologist

@TG pro

@anton_stezhkin

@Madbro@Nativel@mathmanican@Oozinator

[zergologist]

@babba what do you request? I've seen the comment

[babba]

Apology for the disturbance my dear friend. Do you want to join my travel through space ? I have nice warm antimatter, but also cold antimatter can be served... if that may convince you ? It would be nice to have a cute zergologist on board... During the flight please dont play so much with the door exploits, they make me jump around the whole time. Thank you.

[mathmanican]

38 minutes ago, babba said:

My remains turned in to black matter, pulsing in visual door exploits...and the remaining dupes launched me in a pod to space. Do you want to join my last ride ?

Sign me up. I'll come along. I'll do my best to find all the awesome logical deductions that can be made from the omnipresent one-element-per-tile law of the universe. I'm sure we can leverage that to fly faster than the speed of light (though our heads might get stuck in a tile - I'll did you out if you dig me out). 

[Oozinator]

Only horizontally built doors are an exploit, because you can not use such doors in real life.
They need different supports and mechanics, when there are moving parts!
While constructed, builder must think ahead of many different things, not at least bird poo.
When to much pigeon poo (for example) would be stacked on top of horizontally mounted door, it could build up a poo barrier!
Thats why!

12 minutes ago, babba said:

Ozzzzziiieeeee ! Do you want to join my last ride

 

Not now @babba i am here to watch humans suck at colonizing and care.
You could be happy, that they took your wood to a good use, normally they dump and destroy only.
Slaves, slaves everywhere, but my ticket to next destination is bought and i am happy when i am finally allowed to leave.


 

 

[0xFADE]

I’ve been avoiding them since my several hundred ranched critters are bad enough for lag.

Maybe it is the doors not using power but I use mechanical filters without any mental anguish.

I also don’t trust it from what goes on with my bunker door network opening or closing at different times while all on the same signal.