Character Rebalance Discussion thread

[LazyRabbit]

Kevin, can I ask something?

WX-78

Positives:

[*]Can eat spoiled food with no penalty (as before)

[*]Can eat gears to boost max stats (starts a bit lower than wilson, goes a lot higher)

I really love the idea about eating gears. But what will happen to its "max stats boost" if WX enters telepotato and generate new world? Will stats go back to where it start? Or stats boost still be there in new world?

[Sporb]

Wow, I really love the proposed character abilities for Willow. They sound like they fit together well. You would have to play as a pyromaniac and light things on fire, otherwise you'd go insane and light random things on fire.On the other hand, I'm not too excited about WX's abilities. Sure, they might balance out, but how do they mesh in any way? There's no connection from a gameplay perspective. Secondly, while I really do like the idea of WX eating gears to buff stats, I don't think it would work well with the current methods of obtaining gears. I guess the idea is that he is weaker at the start, but he would gradually get stronger and be more powerful in the long run. However, with the exception of graves, the wooden thing is the only place you can find gears in survival. That means that you'd be weaker until you found the wooden thing, and, once you found it, WX's ability would be entirely played out.Here's an idea for Wickerbottom:She keeps her bonus tech level as is. However, once she builds a machine that would normally prototype something, she can make an 'advanced prototype.' From then on, whenever she makes the item it would have a higher durability and maybe it would be more effective too.So, for example, Wickerbottom can prototype a spear without a science machine. Once she builds a science machine, in addition to the alchemy prototypes, she can make an advanced prototype of the spear. Once prototyped, every spear she makes will wear out slower and (maybe) do more damage. The idea is that she is making the spear from the same materials, but it's better constructed.This would make her useful not only in the early game, but also in the late game as well. This would also actually give her a reason to build a shadow manipulator.Now what downsides would go well with this ability?

[qwasted321]

When we will can test it?

[MycoLogical]

Willow is done! Working on WX-78 next. (I'm doing these in the order that their new art stuff is ready)

Kevin, can I make a suggest that is in no way a criticism, just an observation I have made .If new art is being developed can you change Wickerbottom's art and quote "Shhh! No talking!" to something more representive of her. Her quote and art give her the appearance of being a grumpy old woman when, since I basically solely play as her, she is nowhere near, personality wise what there two things lead us to believe. Food for thought

[L0stLP]

Well after reading every post on this thread, I'm putting my suggestions and comparing them to the ones that I've seen.

Wilson

There is a good reason he is not changing, that's because he is the base and from him you should know why you should or should not change to another character. He is the first character you get to play as and he introduces the world. But after you played with him for a very long time you kind of get sick of him.

Willow

My favorite character even though she is a bit juvenile. The reason I like her is because her two perks are two anti-death measures against fire and Charlie. One of them is changed, you get a lighter, so know if you want to be killed by Charlie you can go right ahead. If you don't you will always have that little fire to keep you safe, even if it is not good for exploring.

She now has a sanity issue: she has less sanity, can cause fires wile insane and regains sanity when near fire. This did not please meany people, mostly the grass/twigs/berries farm ones, I'm not one of them because I'm not in the mood to keep them fertilized so I take them from where I get them. For the rest keep in mind that she Gets a sanity bonus from being near fire this includes fire pit or camp fire, where you usually spend nights meaning that controlling her sanity is now easier than ever. Although another fire hazard precaution should be taken.

I was also thinking of a bug spray made with spider gland, flowers and gold, that can be used like the razor blade and if Willow has the lighter equipped she will breathe fire. The bug spray can paralyze the normal spiders and the weak creatures, and slow or force into retreat the bigger ones.

WX-78

Not one of my favorites, mostly because I eat my food fresh, witch ruins the purpose of his perk to eat spoiled food. However in my current world I'm playing as him and he is hilarious, mocking life and saying he is evil.

The fact that he starts weak, but gets stronger by eating gears is a interesting concept. However that would also mean that the gear spreading on the map should be more varied and not just near the wooden thing and in graves.

Taking damage in the rain part was not well received, even though that was all the information we got. I think the umbrella could get a extra use because the one I made in my world, was discarded after the first rain because it simply used a slot and was not that useful, it could take all or part of the damage. The actual damage amount will most likely be revalued a lot. The sparks part would only be useful at night.

The charged lighting rod can be used to refill some health and give him a temporary speed boost. I say temporarily because anything that makes this game less tedious, like character speed will be overused.

He should know how to play dead, because he is a robot and creatures cold not tell the difference anyway.

Because he hates living things he should get a small sanity boost every time he kills a creature.

Wendy

The goth, a character that has a perk that is both random and problematic.

Wendy should be able to chose to call her sister every dusk, to avoid the days where you have pigs that can kill her or small bird that will be killed by her. Abigail can be maintained alive and be very useful, but it takes skill to maximize her usefulness.

Wendy can use a One-Man-Band to summon ghosts from the cemetery, or any individual grave. Wendy should also be able to bury items in graves.

She should be able to recruit crows if she captures them with a bird trap and send them to attack enemies or simply as a diversion. Crows should appear during night.

Because of her personality its hard to say if some things simply displeases her or can actually affect her sanity, the only examples given are flowers and bedroll, I use neither for sanity gain, the Tam O'Shanter and Monster Meat/Pig/Forest method maintains me sane. However this can make a nice twist in the sanity system, but would be hard to balance.

Wolfgang and Wes

I have to mention both of them because most people are saying to let them the same or make Wes even harder, even tough I doubt they even tried him.

The issue of rebalance is to make characters more appealing, so that people try to play with them and enjoy it.

People enjoy Wolfgang because he is overpowered, none of his perks have a disadvantage and why wold you play with a inferior character. However this affects the learning curve and encourages bad habits. I played as Wes and it is fun, you learn you're limits, the thing I hate the most about him is the fact that he goes hungry faster making the actual number a illusion. But he is playable you just know that you can't afford to participate in battles, unless they are boss battles, you need to resort to traps and other tricks. Tricks that you learned wile playing with a character that does not kill things with less hits, has more health and can last one extra day without food. The secret to Don't Starve is actually starving, get the hunger meter to 1 and eat a meaty stew, and for two days, food is not a problem. Wes can not enjoy that because he needs food sooner than the rest.

The going hungry faster perk should be transferred to Wolfgang to create the illusion of his actual stomach. Wes should have a simple value that goes down normally.

Wolfgang, because of his ability to be better in combat he should “be forced” into it, by being visible to enemies from a bigger range and having the ability to taunt them. This can be both helpful and troublesome, because it forces you're choice to not try and avoid the enemy and to separate them from a much more safer range.

Wes on the other side can be silent and not be noticed by enemies unless they are really close. He is weaker in direct combat, but

there is nothing in the game that can't be overcome with different means.

Wolfgang should be unable to craft any non weapon/armor researchable if he is not next to a science machine. He should also have the ability to stagger enemies longer if he uses the ham-bat.

Wes could make a invisible wall that protects him from all damage, has durability, but does not let him move, this has a cool down and should be used only in the most desperate conditions.

Also, characters should not be allowed to poop, just make a lot of pig houses if you want to farm manure. Or you know go the beefalos.

Wikerbotom

In early game and in adventure mode she is overpowered, because she is a walking science machine, The actual science machine acts like a alchemy engine and that acts like a shadow manipulator.

I saw some suggestions of making her weaker in combat, but not one to balance it. She could have more sanity and be affected more heavily by sanity losses and gains. She could also be immune to some of them.

If she can put a hound to sleep she can tame it with delicious meat, because this is something that she could be more experienced in handling it.

If she makes the same item one after another, she can make it with minus one resource, up to half the cost. This way you make a lot of items in advanced only because it's cheaper.

Maxwell

A more frail and more precaution prioritized character, his health is the same as Wes's was initially. The items he gets at the begging, are used up very quickly, and you have to resort to the normal stuff. He is very hard to get insane unless you use green mushrooms, because of his high dapperness.

I would reduce his sanity gain a bit or make the acquiring of nightmare fuel through different means, not just graves and mashed evil flowers, at least for him.

[jbeetle]

No, no it doesn't make sense and here is why:1. From a gaming perspective fully negating an negative effect is outright ridiculous.2. From a realistic perspective ( if that was what you were getting at ) often direct contact with water isn't the cause of rust but the dampness itself, and whether he is shielded or not he will rust - alas take damage. I could see the Umbrella lower the damage drastically but not negate it.

2. you're right.but gameplay, you also have to think about what the player would assume given what else the rain protects from. As it stands, umbrella 100% negates what it was made to protect from (lowering of insanity), so you'd expect the same from another status effect. Not to mention, having to use an umbrella so you don't take damage means you can't do anything else except pick things up. That's a pretty big downside but not so big of one that no one would play him. Even with the umbrella, people would be crazy to play him in Adventure mode just because of A Cold Reception Edited June 13, 2013 by jbeetle

[L0stLP]

The personal crafting stations separate for everyone

Each character to have a separate crating device he can only research and build.

Wilson, you promised the mad scientist engine.

Willow, a engine that can add fire and light to creatures or devices:

She can turn bees or butterflies into fireflies.

She can turn rabbits using nightmare fuel and charcoal into fire minions, that would set on fire anything they touch.

Triangulable dynamite that will not set things on fire before it explodes.

Actual canons that can fire gold with the help of gunpowder or slime.

(Monsters should keep distance from fire)

Wolfgang, a device where he can make unique weapons and armor or barricades and other defenses.

Like the golden sword, golden armor, golden trident that has a longer range, golden mace for AOE damage,

A more powerful tooth trap that uses web and more hound teeth,

Reinforced walls with stone and gold.(literally gold bars on a stone wall)

The fake stuffed beefalo to distract enemies that can’t tell the difference.

Wendy, a engine that can brig the supernaturals closer

She can create a soul steeling weapon that will bring back all the creatures you killed the day before as you’re minions for a day.

She will get ectoplasm when a ghost dies. And can use it in recipes.

She can actually create graves to get more ghosts.

A device that can scare monsters away.

Wx-78, a device that can help you in you’re battle against the fleshlings, that also demands meat in exchange for service:

Ice boxes that run on batteries that have no gears,.

(batteries are produced by the device for every meat you give it)

Flashbangs that use one battery and will help you in you’re escape.

Mini-turtle tanks and turtle mines that spin around in circle or roam the wild life.

Meat that explodes when eaten.

A self building cage that triggers when the bait is taken. For the creatures you want as pets.

Wikerbottom, she can make her own new science engine or use everyone else's, only if she is in they’re range.(Because you can swap characters using adventure mode):

She should be able to make books and library walls that recharges her sanity if she spends enough time near them. She should also be able to build a very comfy chair to just relax there.

She can make body armor for pigs and bunnymen.

She can make a holdable shield that stacks up with helmet and armor.

She can make binoculars to have a larger zoom area.

She can make a ruler, this way she can see all the turf spreading on the ground and also use it as a weapon.

Wes, a engine that can turns his unique talent into useful matter, but only near the engine:

He can built imaginary axe, pickaxe, shovel, spear, pitchfork that have only 10% of the durability of the normal items, but do not require any resources and disappear if dropped on the ground.

He can built his invisible bicycle using nightmare fuel that reacts similar to the walking stick, is twice as effective, but consumes sanity and its durability can only be refiled if placed next to a active night light(a extra use of the nigh light).

He can make invisible walls, that are destroyed in one hit.

Maxwell, his time in that world had given him a exceptional knowledge,

His science engine can only be researched at the Maxwell Door, but built anywhere.

He can make a factory where he can built gears, clockwork bishops. knights and rooks.

He can make his Maxwell’s tooth trap, and Maxwell's Mosquito Trap that take a time to set and can affect even him.

He can make dark butterflies that make evil flowers when planted.

He can plant tentacle spots to create tentacles.

He can turn stone and nightmare fuel into marble seeds that grow into marble trees.

[L0stLP]

That is a really long process! You're saying continuously beat adventure mode to switch characters? I don't think that's very good, it's cool that it's possible but there's no way in hell I'm going through Adventure continuously just to switch characters.

It takes me 3-5hours to beat adventure mode, this not counting the time it takes to find Maxwell's door in a sandbox world.But, yes beating adventure mode twice just to make a simple switch is not optimal, but it is possible.

[WhiskerWow]

Yay! I finally will be able to use Willow.

[366107044]

[*]Can eat gears to boost max stats (starts a bit lower than wilson, goes a lot higher)

Can I request that he can eat frazzled wires too?

[Ridley]

I like the rusting idea. Although if snow doesn't count as rain, we need a winter specific negative added to WX78.I suggest for Wolfgang, that he loses sanity killing small creatures since he seems to like them. Small birds, smallish tallbirds, rabbits, and such. Also maybe just expand upon that to things like pigmen, since he likes to greet them as a friendly neighbor unlike all the other characters.This would be very taxing on his mind, but he has the stomach to last long enough to find food sources or find guilt free ways of killing things.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Ridley

[Cozyhut3]

Can I request that he can eat frazzled wires too?

Why not all trinkets?

[Luigisopa]

Can I request that he can eat frazzled wires too?

agreed. I think the trinkets need another purpose too.On the character balancing:Wilson: no changeWillow: I like the idea of fire power/lighter. Everything about Willow should be about fire :-)Wendy: Can summon Abigail at will for half a day but with a cooldown effect (maybe one day?). She should also be able to make friends with other ghosts! ghosts from graves follow Wendy around like pigs do!Wolfgang: keep him as strong (or double his current strength as a special ability with 2 day cooldown effect). but make him be more hungry as the others (he is working out a lot) and lower his sanity level (small brain)Wx: I like that rain can hurt him; but once you have an umbrella it is quite useless? Snow should hurt him too! (It's still water after all)Wickerbottom: make her brain bigger! (more sanity). Her ability: she gets a part of the crafted recipe back after she made it! What part should be random though! (she is clever enough to use less material)Wes: This one is important to me: The" invisible tools with 10% durability" idea was great!He needs some kind of ability. I am going to say it again here: Don't leave him as he is. I know hardcore players want a challenge and that is ok with me. But give me ONE reason to play as Wes. One little thing that makes him unique to the others. That gives all the (non hardcore) players a fun reason to play as him. Just making him weak is not fun. He needs an appeal.???: I haven't played with him... so yeah. Edited June 13, 2013 by Luigisopa

[johnsnake71]

agreed. I think the trinkets need another purpose too.On the character balancing:Wilson: no changeWillow: I like the idea of fire power/lighter. Everything about Willow should be about fire :-)Wendy: Can summon Abigail at will for half a day but with a cooldown effect (maybe one day?). She should also be able to make friends with other ghosts! ghosts from graves follow Wendy around like pigs do!Wolfgang: keep him as strong (or double his current strength as a special ability with 2 day cooldown effect). but make him be more hungry as the others (he is working out a lot) and lower his sanity level (small brain)Wx: I like that rain can hurt him; but once you have an umbrella it is quite useless? Snow should hurt him too! (It's still water after all)Wickerbottom: make her brain bigger! (more sanity). Her ability: she gets a part of the crafted recipe back after she made it! What part should be random though! (she is clever enough to use less material)Wes: This one is important to me: The" invisible tools with 10% durability" idea was great!He needs some kind of ability. I am going to say it again here: Don't leave him as he is. I know hardcore players want a challenge and that is ok with me. But give me ONE reason to play as Wes. One little thing that makes him unique to the others. That gives all the (non hardcore) players a fun reason to play as him. Just making him weak is not fun. He needs an appeal.???: I haven't played with him... so yeah.

There are balloons in the game files for Wes I think Kevin mentioned months ago that they were going to be distractions for the monsters or something like that

[KharonAlpua]

We still have people saying "Make Wolfgang get hungry faster" -- which totally defeats the point of giving him a bigger stomach! It's the equivalent of, for an FPS, saying "Give the rocket launcher more ammo, but it always shoots two rockets!" His bigger stomach is fine, it just means more time before he needs to eat (more, may I remind you, than the other characters). Food is no more filling to him -- in fact, his bigger stomach means food is less filling than it is to smaller men and girly girls. Meaty Stew and Mandrake Soup, the most filling foods in the game, restore only a measly 2/3 of Wolfgang's Stomach gauge, while they will completely fill any other character.If you want him to get hungry faster, then you may as well ask them to just give him a normal-sized stomach. If anything, Wolfgang is the epitome of what an actual strongman would be like -- a big appetite that allows him to go longer between his bigger meals. And yes, provided that you're eating well in the first place, appetite is suppressed by regular and proper exercise -- so from a real world perspective, it makes no sense that the strongman would get hungry *faster* as a result of his working out.

[Moonkis]

It's the equivalent of, for an FPS, saying "Give the rocket launcher more ammo, but it always shoots two rockets!"

I'm horrible for doing this but no, no they are not equivalent, a rocket launcher that gets twice the ammo but shoots twice as many rockets per "shot" does not make +/- 0.2 projectiles equals double the damage...just saying.

[jbeetle]

I'm horrible for doing this but no, no they are not equivalent, a rocket launcher that gets twice the ammo but shoots twice as many rockets per "shot" does not make +/- 0.2 projectiles equals double the damage...just saying.

That's why I didn't make an example like that because the best one is already there. Every time I think of one there's difference, unlike the food/food thing. I'm sure someone is smart enough to think of one, but it wouldn't stop people from suggesting this.

[Kevin]

Updated wx a bit. Looking into some crashes this morning, but I'll be back at this stuff soon.

[LtShinySides]

Well I think this shows it. WX is a robot, not a human in a robot outfit. Woohoo!

- - - Updated - - -

Well I think this shows it. WX is a robot, not a human in a robot outfit. Woohoo!

[Kevin]

Well I think this shows it. WX is a robot, not a human in a robot outfit. Woohoo!

- - - Updated - - -

Well I think this shows it. WX is a robot, not a human in a robot outfit. Woohoo!

Nah... he's just really into his character.

[KharonAlpua]

The next best comparison to make would be a space-based inventory (rather than slot-based) where no item takes up less than 2 spaces -- why give 15 spaces if every item requires 2? Why double the inventory if every item takes up twice as much of it? Why give a bonus at all when you neutralize that bonus with a drawback? Even if Wolfgang's health drops at say 125% normal, you'd be just as well off cutting the size of his perk than implementing a drawback that is specifically to mitigate or neutralize that perk.In short: If you want him to starve sooner, push for a decrease in how much larger his stomach is, not a drawback that makes his health drain faster but keeps his larger stomach.

[Subscriber01236]

Just wondering how would WX-78 behaving like a Lightning rod be a downside when being struck by lighting heals you and maks your speed go up?

[366107044]

Well, this is most certainly going well Kevin & Devs. I can already see more distince lines appearing around Willow and Wx78, they're finally distinguishable from other characters.

- - - Updated - - -

Just wondering how would WX-78 behaving like a Lightning rod be a downside when being struck by lighting heals you and maks your speed go up?

anything next to him burns

[Subscriber01236]

- - - Updated - - -

anything next to him burns

Don't lightning rods bring in all lightning into it so it can't set things on fire?

Or does it just mean he will drag in the lightning but produce heat to set things on fire?

Also what will happen if we are standing near a lightning rod already?

Either way i am looking forward to playing as WX-78 V2.0

[TeoSS69]

I suggested Wolfgang getting hungrier faster because : 1. It would reduce his free roam without food from 3 days to 2 days and a half. So to actually have to bring food with you when you go explore.2. Put the stockpiled food to use. You can actually use a meaty stew and a honey ham to fill him up. Instead with Wes a meaty stew is wasted and all the meat will go spoiled.So yeah, the hunger rate would be same as Wes, but due to Wolfgang's biggest stomach it would still take him longer than the others to starve, just not as long as it does nowThis means it doesn't nullify the hunger bonus at all, just reduces it. Like i assume the umbrella for WX-78 won't nullify the damage but just reduce it.P.S. [MENTION=27331]jbeetle[/MENTION] no offense taken whatsoever. Don't sweat it :)On another note here are some ideas form /r/dontstarve from reddit : http://redd.it/1g8d6h