Character swapping, how do you feel about it?

[JWalker1311]

So many posts of a similar nature in these forums. All have the same answer.

- Don't like it? Don't use it. Like it? Use it. 

- Wish it was harder? Find friends to play other characters so you don't have to swap to that character yourself. That's as hard as it could be. 

[BezKa]

I enjoy it a lot. I have a mentality that everything permanent is stressful. Choosing one thing and having to deal with it forever is fine for some things, but if game lets me swap characters I'm going to use it. If not for some precise reasons like spamming catapults (which I also do, it's my solo world and it makes me have fun so...) then to just hang out with a certain character. Sometimes you just want to take meat only diet (most similar to my irl one) and run around as opera woman screaming in umlauts. Or build a Merm village, requiring you to move hundreds of turfs from your Marsh to that one location that you decided would be perfect. Or make a burial site for your dead sister. Or get a change of pace, or just anything. 

In other worlds than my solo one I don't use character swapping. I stopped playing on pubs some time ago, but back when I did I picked a character that wouldn't be a double of already present people and perform everything this character could do the best I could. Whether it would be exploring on a server with global positions and healing people as Wortox, staying at base and cooking meals and farming as Warly, or cleaning spider nests and other pests with Abigail. I never stayed long enough to even consider swapping my character, and saw only one instance of someone doing so.

When playing with my friends, I swapped characters once, after it turned out we are not cooperating enough to keep me as Maxwell alive (there was shortage of EVERYTHING) and I had to pick Wigfrid because they decided they really want to fight Klaus. In the end that world was discarded and we got better at surviving now so we can all play the characters we want and live to tell the tale. I doubt we'll be swapping in that world anytime soon, if at all. 

[Echsrick]

changin characters mid game is like you betray yourself of your abbility to do something whit the thing you choose to be you

[Mday]

20 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

changin characters mid game is like you betray yourself of your abbility to do something whit the thing you choose to be you

Now I feel like I should do that more often.

57 minutes ago, thegreatJash said:

I personally don't like it. It has transformed many characters into swap characters, to the point where those characters don't even get normally played. They just sit there, waiting to be swapped for a couple days, and then back to Wolfgang. Warly, Winona, Wormwood, and even Wurt all rarely see actual gameplay from my experience. I understand why I lot of people like it, but in my honest opinion the least they they could do is give a cooldown or something.

I will only play wormwood when there is only 1 character left to pick.

Just kidding. A cooldown for like 20 days isn't bad. Any longer I think will be too long.

[Lil K]

I'm not very found of changing characters mid game to make things easier. Personally I like the challenge to do everything with a single character, accepting its perks and its weaknesses. The character swap feels to me the same way gunpowder does. However, even though I feel this way, I don't think it should become a challenge. It is there for people that want to use it, so please guys, if you don't like it, don't use it. Do not make it harder to others.

[Baark0]

I think it's good that character swapping exists, but I wish it was more difficult to do. I saw someone suggest that killing the celestial champion should give you a character swap, which I think fits nicely, since 1. moon, 2. adds another rewards to the boss and 3. makes it harder to swap. This would incentive's more people play "swap characters" like warly more, since his perks are very strong, but his downsides can be negated by just swapping after cooking his food.

[clickrush]

I feel like at the point where people consider character swapping they typically have figured out and picked apart the game to a degree where they can just do what ever they like in the game, since they know how to tackle each problem or at least know how to learn a challenge quickly.

So at this point in the game it doesn't really matter from a survival standpoint. They just swap to do something specific such as gathering, crafting or combat, with a specialized character and in other cases they want to access certain crafting or cooking. However not doing that wouldn't hold them back in terms of progress or survival, it maybe (not strictly) just speeds things up a bit in the long term.

At the same time most players seem to really gold-plate their bases for no other reason than fun. It doesn't progress them towards beating bosses or sheer survival at all. Most bases don't need to have anything beyond some basic food production and some tech to provide shelter/protection against hazards and you probably want some convenient access to crafting weapons and armor. That's really it. Anything beyond that is just playing around in a sandbox.

Given all of this I don't think character swapping matters really. Nobody is forced to do it to access late game goals, but some enjoy it to do so.

---

What I think actually matters is that the alternative feels good to play. If sticking with a character long term ("forever") is rewarding in some way or another, then we have best of both worlds. And this applies especially to solo play or small group play.

Hence why people would prefer if some of the characters had a bit more depth and payoff if you stick with them. A perfect example would be Winona. But other characters like Maxwell also suffer from being a bit one-dimensional in the sense that they are a bit too specialized in one specific non-combat area.

Characters specialized in combat are generally a bit less of a problem, because the most rewarding challenges are combat oriented. Also some of the more intricate Characters like Warly, Wurt and Wormwood reward you for staying on them even though they have significant downsides.

In conclusion I would say: Being able to character swap is fine, but specific characters could benefit more from getting perks that reward staying on them.

[thegreatJash]

24 minutes ago, Lil K said:

I'm not very found of changing characters mid game to make things easier. Personally I like the challenge to do everything with a single character, accepting its perks and its weaknesses. The character swap feels to me the same way gunpowder does. However, even though I feel this way, I don't think it should become a challenge. It is there for people that want to use it, so please guys, if you don't like it, don't use it. Do not make it harder to others.

I agree. I used to play singleplayer a lot and the idea of sticking with the character with that world indefinitely really made you question the kind of challenges you would encounter and the kind of playstyle that really suits you. It made you think of ways around those characters' weaknesses, often involving their strengths, and it was really interesting seeing the things you could come up with.

[Behan]

Lorewise, it for sure feels intense for characters - not to say it is actually death, as implied in their quotes. That said, I feel like:
1 - it should demand rarer resources or a boss locked blueprint, since currently it is cheaper to swap characters than to use a telelocator focus;
2 - it should at least have an additional cost: the previous character becomes permanently unavailable for use upon swapping.

[TheGoldenDonut_]

They just have to make it an endgame thing.

[Starlogy]

17 hours ago, Dr.Medic said:

jesus you couldn't have found a worse quality image if you tried

[minespatch]

I'm still confused by the idea of character balance in this game. People are treating DST like League of Legends or Team Fortress 2. I thought this was a survival game, not a contest.

[YumoS]

you know what i like most about this kind of things in games in general. having a choice. giving gamers a choice to play how they like it. you feel it is cheating? well, then don't use it. Feel it is awesome to swap characters for whatever reason. do it. its up to you. giving a choice increases the value of a game for me because it is beneficial to a wider audience by giving both sides what they want.

[Behan]

 

In this case, I wouldn't call it a balance matter, but an issue with verisimilitude, which is a concept that refers to the internal coherence and consistence of a fictional work/universe (being it realistic of fantastic).
Maybe I would consider it if it had any effort involved, but at the current state I'd rather ignore it because it simply breaks immersion for me.

 

[HowlVoid]

41 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I'm still confused by the idea of character balance in this game. People are treating DST like League of Legends or Team Fortress 2. I thought this was a survival game, not a contest.

I understand what you mean this is a cooperative multiplayer game after all, haha. Asking klei to try and balance the game around both multiplayer and single player would be selfish, especially since they have been running at 100% for some time now. The initial idea behind the game was for this to be a multiplayer game in the first place, as you said, its not a competition.

 I think some of my feelings also stem from envy for what perks other characters have. Lets compare Wormwood and Warly for a second. Warly got a plethora of unique, unique being the key word, of perks that range on a very wide spectrum of utility. Warly has a resource gather spice, he has a combative spice, he has a great dish that produces light, and a dish that lets him deal more potential damage than a normal Wolfgang. 

Both Warly and Wormwood came from dlcs from the base game, but in comparison Wormwood feels neglected. I boast about Wormwood all the time but in comparison Woormwood's only unique ability is to bloom. Blooming is fantastic and one could argue its the best perk in the late game because of how great speed is, but that's kinda it? Living logs are not super hard to obtain anymore, the bramble husk has niche uses, the bramble trap is a glorified toothtrap, and his ability to relate to plants is non-existent. I'm not arguing that the character is weak, he is far from it, I simply feel as if he's hit a rut and he has the potential to be more interesting.

What I'm most of afraid of is that Wormwood will be like this forever and never even get a chance at a rework. He won't get a chance at the limelight just because he is deemed "balanced" or "a finished product".  Character swapping kinda just cemented the whole thing and I suppose I just need to get over it.

[W0l0l0]

It'd be cool if the means of changing character was dictated by a world setting. Perhaps something like no cost, current system, Antelion loot, Crab King loot, Celestial Champion, or no changing, with the default obviously being the current system. 

On a slight tangent, I find it interesting that to change character you need a combination of both moon material and nightmare tech, (with the original Florid Postern presumably being a shadow construct). Maybe it has lore implications? 

[minespatch]

14 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

 I think some of my feelings also stem from envy for what perks other characters have

I guess that's where me as a humble and noobie Wilson main comes in. I'm not jealous of the other characters, I'm in my happy medium. I'll be patient for the rework of my main but I'd rather see what the other character's lore is. So with the reworks of the untouched characters, it's less about "power" and more about them as characters and how their mechanics bring out that personality.

[DarkPulse91]

Character swapping in itself is a good mechanic and I hope it stays.

But it's execution is flawed. It's far too easy to do. Once the portal is upgraded, all you need is one moon rock and a purple gem to completely change your character.

And it's because of this that I think is the reason some characters are seen as bad. Like Winona and Warly. Who you just switch to when you need catapults or spices, then switch back.

If it was more difficult to do/could only be done at the very late game (like say, after the guardian) then I feel it would increase how much people use those characters, especially Winona. 

[Yuuko]

There are people who really want the experience of playing a single character, with all the ups and downs that come with it.  I definitely fall into this group for most of my game playing, because I find I really gravitate towards certain characters and dismiss others regardless of perks.  That said, there is also a group of people who just want to do the best thing, maybe they even like exploiting the game, and giving them the opportunity to mix character perks like this to stack multi's on Wolfgang, add Winona's catapults everywhere, swap to Warly for any cooking ect is good.  I am sometimes in this group, usually after I've played a game a lot and feel I've had my experience with the characters I love.  Lately I have some worlds where I start knowing I will get celestial portal going, and others where I know I won't ever get it.  I decide that going in.  When I do not use the portal my worlds are usually not long lasting.  Maybe in 200-300 days I've done all I will.  Celestial portal adds a long of lasting value to worlds just b/c variety.

Fortunately the portal is 100% optional.  Its not like if you say, didn't like some boss but still had to fight them eventually (toad <_< lol)

I don't like hearing people complain about characters being pick & switch, or about how easy the portal is to unlock.  I don't like this because this game rarely prolongs content.  You can rush the ruins from the start of a game, why are we worried about switching characters in the first season?  I don't think delaying it will matter, ppl who use it will use it, ppl who don't won't, and that's okay.  For pick and switch characters - exploiting characters is kinda the entire point of the portal...  So get over it.  Its a feature, not a bug.  If you don't like it, don't use it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now something you said which I think is important to this conversation.  I think all characters should have more special things they can do.  When it comes to pick and switch I don't really believe the problem is Wolfgang being too good at combat, and everyone switches to him because they want to be a min/max player, but more that Wolfgang is pretty much the only option for improving combat...  If you're playing Wilson and want to improve your ability to combat raid bosses... you switch to Wolfgang...  Wouldn't it be cool if every character had some kinda option that would let you boost them a bit?  Maybe stacking multi on Wolfgang can be tuned down, and we give other players some new combat options, and then the advice for every raid boss isn't "pick Wolfgang" but there actually diverse approaches...

[Terra B Welch]

I like it, being able to make use of some character exclusive items helps reduce the tedium in solo play.

[xDarkSoul18x]

Considering I have only 1 friend that plays this game I like to use it on occasion to craft up some things like extra merm houses or turf, or maxwell to mass farm wood. I like wormwoods armor to.

[Blue Moth]

19 hours ago, GrMcGillacactus said:

I would love to be able to clean-sweep the postern to change it, but I doubt it will ever happen

it'd be nice if you could clean-sweep the celestial portal to look like the regular florid postern, so you can have both aesthetics to choose from.

[Mysterious box]

22 hours ago, thegreatJash said:

I personally don't like it. It has transformed many characters into swap characters, to the point where those characters don't even get normally played. They just sit there, waiting to be swapped for a couple days, and then back to Wolfgang. Warly, Winona, Wormwood, and even Wurt all rarely see actual gameplay from my experience. I understand why I lot of people like it, but in my honest opinion the least they could do is give a cooldown or something.

Now maybe this is a region difference but atleast from my experience post reap what you sow I've seen Warly, Wurt, and Wormwood much more often than Wx, Wolfgang, and Wicker on pub servers.

[Well-met]

17 hours ago, minespatch said:

I'm still confused by the idea of character balance in this game. People are treating DST like League of Legends or Team Fortress 2. I thought this was a survival game, not a contest.

its not about fighting other players

its about giving players a reason to not play the same 1-2 characters permanently because the others are less good.

who wants to play downgraded characters when you can end up with the same outcomes for much less effort with wendy? most people in videogames dont care if an option or a task is mundane and boring, they'll still do it because they want to have the easiest time playing.

[Mysterious box]

36 minutes ago, Well-met said:

its not about fighting other players

its about giving players a reason to not play the same 1-2 characters permanently because the others are less good.

who wants to play downgraded characters when you can end up with the same outcomes for much less effort with wendy? most people in videogames dont care if an option or a task is mundane and boring, they'll still do it because they want to have the easiest time playing.

To be fair even without the portal Wendy's perks are too useful and forgiving so I doubt the pick rate for would decrease alot even without the portal. The picks in pubs tend to be on personal preference. I focus on pubs because realistically even if kiel changed it anyone who cared to use it outside of console players would just mod it back or use console command. All changing it would do is harm console players really.