Oxygen Not Included October 2022 Roadmap

[goboking]

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

 Few reasons I can think of it having seemed too harsh are:

1) There were no multiple planetoid starts and Marsh biome was too close to the starting biome and was integral for reed fibre. Now that we have multiple planetoid starts to help with difficulty and challenges, Terra can be made the most bare bones and simple to deal with. Currently, it is not, you would have an easier time dealing with the Swampy asteroid start than this if you put aside the early game mud issues that could cause more floods and lots of polluted oxygen being everywhere causing a minor inconvenience.

Atmo suits weren't introduced until the Oil Upgrade, which came after germs were nerfed in the Outbreak Upgrade.

 

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

2) There were no proper buildings to help with killing off germs from water. Using reservoirs for decontamination makes no sense and is much more finnicky than potentially alternative solutions, if implemented. Now we also have sanishells. Since they are a morph, they should not be expected for new players to be relied upon, but mid to hard difficulty planetoid start types would be perfectly fine as having them the lifeline for cleaning germy liquids. I even mentioned the implementation of a building like this (Liquid Germ Scrubber) in the same post you quoted! The aforementioned Diseases Restored mod also includes a UV cleaner, so having both of these in some form should be more than enough. If they clean only a portion of germs in one cycle-through of the building, having the germ sensor would still be necessary, or putting multiple of the buildings in place, requiring more power at a given time, which is exactly how the UV cleaner works in the mod. Or just simply requiring plastic/glass for either of these building types.

 

Liquid tepidizers could be used to kill food poisoning in water and deodorizers could be used to clean polluted oxygen, preventing the spread of slimelung.

 

I think the actual problems were twofold.

1. Germs, as they were, were nasty for the unsuspecting.  Klei rightly determined that new players had enough on their plate without having to worry about food poisoning disrupting their colony to a degree that could send it into a death spiral.  And slimelung was a huge hit to labor even if the infected survived.  This is why more severe germs, should we ever get them, should be something we opt into instead of the default.
2.  Too many veteran players were set in their ways and loudly whined that the germs were too harsh before they'd even tried to adapt their playstyle.  For example, there were people who let polluted oxygen from neighboring slime biomes flood their base, making oxygen production less of a priority.  With the introduction of slimelung, such colonies were doomed for obvious reasons.  Instead of cleaning the oxygen or looking for another counterplays, they instead complained that the new system was unfair.

[watermelen671]

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

The Diseases Restored mod shows it can be done. Few reasons I can think of it having seemed too harsh are:

Disease Restored is just what it says on the tin: it restores the disease system to how it was during one of the previous attempts.

IIRC there were previously 3-4 systems of disease and illnesses:

1. OG where you'd just automatically get disease after eating certain foods or existing in polluted oxygen for a certain amount of time
2. Outbreak Upgrade introduced the germ system, where dupes would get disease after being exposed to a certain amount of germs
   • It's around this time when slimelung would kill your dupe within a cycle or two if not dealt with immediately IIRC. And they'd cough which further spread slimelung germs. Nobody really liked this because it made management really hard for beginner players so they scrapped it.
3. There was another crack at making slimelung lethal again, and I believe around this time was when sunburn was introduced...so Rocketry Upgrade MKI or MKII, where they introduced the medic role. This was when immunity was a mechanic and dupes had a chance to become infected with a disease upon waking up when rolling against their immunity level. Slimelung was made to be a multi-level infection, so eventually over the course of multiple cycles it'd eventually kill a dupe.
4. The current state of disease: discounting radiation sickness, diseases happen more often but aren't really fatal. They mostly reverted it back to the Outbreak Upgrade in terms of mechanics, where diseases are more likely to happen the longer dupes are exposed to germs.

4 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

2) There were no proper buildings to help with killing off germs from water.

All diseases are temperature sensitive, and will die off when reaching a certain level. So using the liquid tepidizer or pumping it into a cold biome would do more than enough to deal with any water germs.

Spoiler

I think I recall that gulp fish used to remove food poisoning germs at one point or another but I'm not sure if that's still a thing or even if it was a thing to begin with.

 

also what @gobokingsaid 

20 minutes ago, goboking said:

Atmo suits weren't introduced until the Oil Upgrade, which came after germs were nerfed in the Outbreak Upgrade.

Man that feels like ages ago...

Yeah and swamp lilies, medicine and other decontamination items (plastic tiles) weren't added to the game yet. You just had to quarantine your colony in med-beds and hope for the best.

[Sasza22]

20 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

There have been AFAIK three dedicated attempts at the germ systems...it oscillated between being too harsh or too easy with zero middle ground and that's the way it's been for the longest time. This is probably the best system that we'll get and have to settle with.

It`s hard to make it both relevant and not too harsh. Atm it just slows you down and it`s irrelevant late game but substantial early. IMO it just needs tuning. Instead of a flat debuff it should reduce stats multipicatively so faster dupes get hit just as hard. We could use more vectors for some diseases (zombie spores bsically only infect you if you really want it). Some proper disifnection for air and liquid with proper drawbacks (bleachstone requirement, decor penalty, annoyed dupe reaction). All automatable so germ sensors have a use.

We could also use more diseases so we get more variety.

[watermelen671]

24 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

We could also use more diseases so we get more variety

Bring back Dweebcephaly!

Spoiler

Thinking about it now...there are a number of diseases if you think about it a bit loosely: food poisoning, slimelung, heat stroke, hypothermia, sun burn, zombie sickness, and radiation poisoning.

25 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

Instead of a flat debuff it should reduce stats multipicatively so faster dupes get hit just as hard.

That's actually a pretty good idea

[Rakssu]

If the skins system turn out to be well received by the community maybe they could... idk... merge the current DLC with the base game (making it free)? And they could give an exclusive skin to the ones whom previously bought it.

Also, I'd like to see some hostile critters, currently there is none (vanilla game) and the ones we have are passive/neutral.

[minespatch]

2 hours ago, Rakssu said:

ones we have are passive/neutral.

Only violent ones for me are the crabs. Especially during mating season.

[BezKa]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:14 PM, Sasza22 said:

We could also use more diseases so we get more variety.

Critter borne disease?

[Sergadra]

So the Roadmap does not look to grim right now. We got all possibilitys that were provided before.

My view and wishes about those plans:
- Story Traits
Sounds like an intressting concept just from the looks of it now.
I also already love the new Critter Flux o Matic though not used. No more Specific breeding needed for Pufts. I hated this a lot so phew finally we can morph em around like we please ^^ - That will simplify Oxylite Production.

- Expanded Surface Gameplay Tools and Content
I hope we will get new Elements and the unused ones will finally get into the basic Game. Would love to see more Elements with their own propertys and usages. There is a lot of room. Espacially i want to see Combustibles (Propan, Butan and others), Radioactive(Radium, Thorium maybe even Plutonium and maybe others), and more Metallics (Electrum, Silver, Titanium and such things) but there might be other intressting Elements like Magnesium, Casium and specifically Lithium for maybe larger Batterys.

Some things could be created at a Chemcial Bench for further usage. That would work with a Laboratory

- QoL improvement! E.g. Expanded database and a searchable build menu for the base game, and improvements to Spaced Out! rocketry.
Some Base Game Search Funktion sure would be great definatly. The Game grows sometimes a quick Search is faster if you want to build something specific.

But also here some Changes of the UI again would be welcome.

1. We once had that ultra long Materials Listing how much everything have sorted into categorys. You replaced it with a selectable menu. I liked and disliked the change to the same likings. I would wish for the old menu integrated into the new UI Style. That sounds contra productive first without the now Listed changes that should be made:

• As before with the new style only selected Elements but sorted into Categorys like: Metals, Minerals, Manufractured OR Custom made Sort
• A Scrollable Menu if it gets too huge because some like to play it this way

2. The UI Scalabillity still causes Issues. I made the UI for myself a little smaller and i see some Boxes that are scalled too but shouldn't like Background Shadow Dimmer for the Dupe Selection Menu.

3. A Better Mod Menu. In my Opinion most important!!!
We seriously need a better way to keep our mods in shape. This would include following suggestions:

• Better Listing for Mods with sorting Functions (Name, Last Updated, Loading Order, Version)[If it is not sorted after loading order, make it a Loading Position that can be swapped with typing Numbers]
• A view for when the mod was last Updated (Compatibility checks won't always work, so that's the next best option)
• Savable and Loadable Modlist. That's what annoys us the most after Updates to the Game.
  Make it possible with "Only Load Modlist"(This changes the Modlist to those exact mods) and "Add to loaded Mods"(Adds the collection to the active mods, this would be good for Packages(QOL, Mechanics, Gameplay Content, Assets).
• And srsly a Performance Fix for it it slows down the complete Game just from scrolling wonder how that happened ^^"

4. Vitals Menu, Priority Menu

• We need sorting Functions often lose track who is doing what work. Sometimes Alphabetical is the fastest or by work
• We maybe should also not view all Planets at once. Make it switchable and make the default selected the Planet or Rocket we work right now on.
• Got also an idea for assignable Workgroups (see below)

Grouping could look like Builder, Constructor, Farmer, Sorter and that. Or via Custom Names and Icons (Like the Hats) You then select the group to the duplicant. Even if this Dupe does other work to but you would directly see what is his primary work you selected him for and where you missing People and all that.

- New Room types! We’re thinking: Laboratory, Mission Control Room, better bedrooms…
More Room Types are always welcome using already a mod for it. The modder must be proud that the Kitchen was already implemented and Laboratory (Better called Research Center), and Better Bedrooms are planed. Also love his change to the Medroom.

If some one wants to try it already (Already Sweet Dreams Fixed):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2348079481&searchtext=Rooms+expanded

- And Then?

• Starting Bioms? Okay. Can live with that. That should expand with new Elements added to Game.
• Richer Worldgen Options? Sounds intressting. Loved the concept without Spaced Out. Should not be the main Focus. Execpt you want to add some Configuration Options like the World Traits Menu. Liked that
• New Sim Systems? Absolutly!!! but yes those take time. I heared there was once Fire planned. Though the more Complicated Systems need to reflect on Dupe Time. We might need more Dupes to do the new Work. That means more Food and Oxygen is needed. It should be considered if an reduction in usage is required.

- Cosmetics
Yep this sounds fair as long the Cosmetics are not abused. The Game would be open to everyone. You still will make money for it.

The count of cosmetic Packs added should reflect the cost of the Development put in and some extra Earnings for the Devs and Wins for expanding the Company in view of the Development put in.

Don't want to be called cash grabbers. (A good example for cash grabbers are Elder Scrolls Online(You need to buy the Game, Then to be it playable you need to get the subscription because storage and Finally they still sell cosmetics extra... WTF), Counter Strike Games, Loot Box Games srsly please don't do it like them)

If it fits the Development Cycle and Content i will definatly throw in my Money you can be sure of it. This Game brought me a lot of Joy and some more Education. Spaced out was like another Game for me so i still think the money was good invested.

- Keep it up Klei
I MEAN IT!!!
Treat your Employees well they deserve it! Because this game is like KSP, you need to gather a lot of Knowledge to produce such a Game.
Don't rush things we can wait! It's definatly also a labor of love!
And enjoy your community!

Edited October 7, 2022 by Sergadra

[Ellilea]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:31 PM, JarrettM said:

Another long-term goal we’re working on is a cosmetic skins system. Our skins system will be modeled on what’s worked for Don’t Starve Together, so anyone who’s ever played DST will feel right at home. We’re starting with some new decor, buildings, clothing and then will gather feedback and see what else you’d like skinned. It may be a little odd to add cosmetic skins to a single-player game, but we’re hoping this’ll let us keep making free content updates for everybody rather than DLC.

 

I've yet to play DST with another human being and I got dozens of skins for it xD

Who cares if it's single player, as long as it gives people joy and helps pay for their beloved games to keep them alive (and in case of cosmetics like DST it's not devs selling cut content for additional cash - that's bad, DST-style is fair and great).

[Sasza22]

6 hours ago, BezKa said:

Critter borne disease?

I was thinking of it. Maybe a poisonous critter that would warrant adding an antivenom. But a disease spreading through critters would be cool as well. Spreading when dupes groom infected critters.

What i want is for the diseases to be more interactive. The stuff like heat stroke or sunburn even stinging eyes are uninteractive. You just wait for them to end. There is no treatment just avoidance. There`s a lot of potential here. Sunscreen, eyedrops, cooling gel, painkiller.

The germ based diseases are just an easy disease a medium one and a hard one. I`d love some variety. A disease easy to heal but spreading super easily. A disease that infects dupes slowly with a low chance even when exposed but takes long to heal and is a substantial debuff. All possible with the existing system.

[pether]

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

The stuff like heat stroke or sunburn even stinging eyes are uninteractive. You just wait for them to end. There is no treatment just avoidance.

To be fair, even when a disease has counterplay, it is often more complicated and annoying than effects of the disease itself. Waiting is better and easier than trying to cure them. That ofc has many reasons, but the final effect is still the same - diseases are boring and forgetable 

[ZombieDupe]

Is the germ system not obvious as to how to handle it? What is the real issue in tweaking it further exactly? Telling what happened while it was being patched makes no difference here, just some methods that didn't work for one reason or another. Maybe the system was too simple? Here's how I would suggest it be done:

1) Rebalance the biomes generated, do not make Marsh biome be the one to be generated on Terra. It is the very first starting planetoid, the second or third planetoid you get to in SO could have that, as well as some mid-tier or hard difficulty starting ones. What Terra could have instead could be Swampy biome for example, and if it's reed fiber or gold amalgam you're worried about not getting, there are ways to balance that as well, like having thimble reeds available in sandstone biome for example. That balance for the easiest start actually makes sense. Here you go, opt-in difficulty done pretty well!

2) Include aforementioned buildings to deal with germs (UV cleaner, Liquid Germ Scrubber, or something of the like). Decontamination showers could remove germs from both duplicants and whatever they're carrying, makes cleaning up Marsh biomes a bit easier. Some other buildings that clean germs, like the Ore Scrubber could be changed to be a conveyor rail type building for cleaning germs automatically, or even still manually except they require rails, so instead of working like wash stations with direction, they would work a bit more like the cooling fan does, for example.

3) Make germs both more abundant and less so. There can be variation in the slime biome, how much germs could stay could depend on the mass of the tile for example. So no 1 million germs on every slime tile unless the mass allows it, and also no stacking of germs in the millions instantly when 2 pieces of debri combine while having a million germs on each. Marsh biome could have PO2 pockets all full of slimelung. The Swampy biome could also have some food poisoning germs, less so than the Marsh biome's slimelung amount, but still quite a few. Would be the better biome to present the player with.

5) Make more instances of "physical" contact between duplicants apply germs to them and buildings they interact with if they do have germs on them, maybe even make digging up germified tiles apply germs on them.

5) Make immunity go down over time if a duplicant has more than a certain number of germs on them. I'm not 100% on how the system works right now, but it's pretty close to this already from what I can recall. Just make the symptoms something that become worse if your duplicants get more and more germs. They could stay at the first level of symptoms forever in that case if they get a steady supply of 20,000 germs to linger in their bodies for a long period of time. It could scale as 10,00 least symptoms, 100,000 mid-level symptoms and 1,000,000+ germs worst. Duplicant's immune system could handle first 10,000 germs or so without it going down, by default. The speed at which the immune system would then fall depend on how many germs have been ingested and when the immune system has been completely defeated, the duplicant will die. Having some notifications for when duplicants have gotten ill or not far from death should help players pay attention to it when it's applicable. Sure, it doesn't make sense for a duplicant to die in 2, or even 10 cycles if they have germs, but you can balance it so that the fall is gradual and have notifications when that happens. It doesn't seem to me that it has ever worked like this for one reason or another though, am I clueless on something or I somehow found THE solution that for some reason everyone, including the devs, it has not occurred to? Is this exact train of thought not obvious enough when I say "buff germs"?

Does this not make more sense than what we have now? It kind of makes the whole system pointless if it's not made powerful. Remember that radiation works pretty well, except maybe your duplicants can't die from it. We already have duplicants dying from suffocation THE MOMENT their oxygen bar gets to 0%, same for hunger and calories and scalding or taking damage can very quickly turn to your duplicant dying, even if they get incapacitated first for a few minutes. This can be done right, there are other mechanics that work well, and there is no way germ system can't work as a danger. Duplicants should be able to die from slimelung in my opinion, while food poisoning could make them completely useless and basically bed-ridden, but that's the worst case scenario, something that even new players would rarely ever be able to come to if they pay just a little bit attention, if you do the system right.

[pether]

8 hours ago, Sergadra said:

More Room Types are always welcome using already a mod for it. The modder must be proud that the Kitchen was already implemented and Laboratory (Better called Research Center), and Better Bedrooms are planed. Also love his change to the Medroom.

If some one wants to try it already (Already Sweet Dreams Fixed):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2348079481&searchtext=Rooms+expanded

I am. My little baby mod is growing up and now the game married him, and they will have a nice house (with a Kitchen ofc!) and they will live long and happily and I'm so proud and happy for them  I remember when he was so small, only two rooms, they grow up so fast!

I'm happy to see Kitchen and I can't wait to see what other rooms Klei will do in the future

[Sasza22]

On 10/7/2022 at 11:01 PM, pether said:

To be fair, even when a disease has counterplay, it is often more complicated and annoying than effects of the disease itself. Waiting is better and easier than trying to cure them. That ofc has many reasons, but the final effect is still the same - diseases are boring and forgetable 

Yeah that is kind of a problem. There are ways to fix that though. What are the things people hate their dupes do, so they don`t pick dupes with those traits? Flatulent, narcoleptic, mouth breather. Now diseases should make dupes act like that. Food poisoning causing flatulence (inb4 somebody uses that in their design), slimelung making them mouth breathers (or a worse variant), zombie spores turning them into narcoleptics, radiation sickness making dupes briefly emit radiation etc. If it`s annoying enough people would go out of their way to fix it or prevent it.

Easy to make cures for minor sickensses would be cool as well: A little bit of ice to fix heat stroke, some clean water to treat stinging eyes, bandages out of reed fiber (10 out of 1) to speed up health recovery, peppernut pills to treat hypothermia. All simple recipies you could use to fix small annoying issues or just ignore them if they don`t bother you.

[ISAWHIM]

Any plans to adopt some of these NEEDED QOL mods into the base-game, with the appropriate permissions from the authors?

One, so we can reduce our need to wait for mod-updates and they don't die in the process... And two, for the sake of the fact that, honestly, they are needed to compensate for some of the games short-sightings.

Off hand, I can think of a few that are NEEDED...

Wire-cutters

Dig-up falling sand

Que for sinks

Bigger item building lists (To remove the need for scroll-bars)

Gasses overlay (Which expands your overlay to be more palatable and informative)

Custom temperature overlay (Expanding your temperature overlay)

Clean Drop (Which makes items fall towards the direction of the dupes, instead of blasting away from them, landing inside walls. Or they land UP on a floor, as opposed to embedding within the floor or falling down when they shouldn't logically fall down.)

Efficient supply (So they deliver "full loads", as opposed to micro-loads, millions of times. Stacking storage items nearby.)

Deselect new materials (So storage bins don't automatically add new discovered items to storage, by default.)

Show building ranges (So we are not guessing if something is in reach when being built, or if something is in the way.)

Free Camera (SO we are not locked-in to fixed zooming, unless we go out to snapshot mode.)

This isn't a Mod, but it would be nice to have the option, before "a new printable is ready", to select, "Print a dupe" or "Print a Care package" and "Print a dupe" would have one option to re-print a deceased dupe, minus the skill-points, but the same attributes. (Care packages for those of us who are full of dupes and would like ONLY a better assortment of care-packages. Also, more level appropriate care packages. Dirt if you are low on dirt, water if you are only low on water, etc. You know, like you CARE.)

[The Plum Gate]

How about a gathering room mechanic - somewhere to idle on the clock. 

[Sasza22]

9 hours ago, The Plum Gate said:

How about a gathering room mechanic - somewhere to idle on the clock. 

We got a recreation room already. They could just make dupes gather there. Just not use the recreation stuff if it`s worktime.

[NewWorldDan]

On 10/28/2022 at 9:41 PM, The Plum Gate said:

How about a gathering room mechanic - somewhere to idle on the clock. 

They really do find the worst places to hang out while idle. At least go stand by the printing pod instead of getting scalded.

[The Plum Gate]

I like the idea of new rooms, maybe the gathering room mechanism can apply to rooms like the kitchen, barracks, bedrooms, mess hall. SO long as they aren't using morale-boosters on the clock like the soda fountain or the telephone, that kind of thing is what would separate the break time from work time idling.

Them just standing there when I'm trying to lay out a process is sometimes handy, it gets work done faster, but if they're idling late game, they do tend to end up in strange places.

[smcjones]

Honestly I’ve loved the renewed interest in performance and hope that doesn’t go by the wayside. It’s easier to consistently work on performance than to do a performance improvement release and as players we will be happier. 
 

I’d love to see path optimization with better heuristics. Even checkpoint flags would help us develop our own “heuristics” and should cut down on processing efforts. 
 

As for non optimization improvements, I’d love the ability to make larger space bases. Maybe a secondary module for living where we can see both at the same time? Or the ability to build longer term modular space stations. 
 

Connected to that, having a “gravity mode” would be fun, where dupes floated and liquid and gasses moved around more. 
 

Finally, if it didn’t wreak havoc on the game engine and performance, being able to have percentages of any 2-3 gasses/liquids in a tile would be cool. Introduces new possibilities like creating mud from water + dirt in one tile. 

[goboking]

5 hours ago, smcjones said:

As for non optimization improvements, I’d love the ability to make larger space bases. Maybe a secondary module for living where we can see both at the same time? Or the ability to build longer term modular space stations. 

Yes please.  People seem to enjoy the challenge of cramming as much into the tiny modules we have, and all I'm wanting is enough space to build a rocket interior that doesn't look like I tried to cram 10 gallons of stuff into a 5 gallon container. 

[cpy]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:12 PM, goboking said:

I just want to say that while new content is flashier, new world gen options can go a long way towards enriching game play.  Everything from the number of dupes we start with to the exact world traits we want to play against should be on the table here.  Lean as far into it as you can without tanking performance.  And for my two cents, richer world gen options is the perfect opportunity to introduce harsher versions of the game's diseases for those who want to opt in for a more challenging experience.

Yeah option to do 100 dupes start challenge or 50 dupes starting challenge? Some crazy ideas can provide real fun challenges. I only watch those on YT.

[audenwjx]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:31 PM, JarrettM said:

And then? 
Bigger things like new starting biomes, richer world gen options, and even new sim systems are on the horizon too, but these take longer to develop, so no short-term promises.

Can't image a crossover with DST or Terraria!

[gabberworld]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:42 PM, cpy said:

Yeah option to do 100 dupes start challenge or 50 dupes starting challenge? Some crazy ideas can provide real fun challenges. I only watch those on YT.

it's old message but  50 dupes start would be hardcore. that guy who manage keep them all alive without any cheat is omg

[RonEmpire]

Any new updates for roadmap for 2023