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  1. Someone being soaked wet because someone else depleted the entire pig skin resource is not their fault. Not that hard to understand. He shouldn't spawn on new people, much like how hounds don't spawn on players below a certain day count. Deerlops himself is an intended mechanic to keep players out of base at times and descale the base size. Yes, in Oxygen Not Included. DS and DST have been survival games for a reason. If we want resource farms, then might as well just let everything and anything have the potential to do that, day 1. Except that destroys any sense of survival. ONI has a different sense of survival that works even with builds like sour gas boilers. This doesn't work so well in the setting that DS is set in. I don't care how you play, but I do believe certain actions and methods should be highly discouraged to maintain gameplay engagement in a way appropriate to the theme of the game. Quick interactive automation of resources like crops may be appropriate, but whne you look at pig skin farms, even small scale ones, that just looks like an exploit that was never patched. If the player would rather use farms to do something else fun that would not be possible due to the farm and the regular gameplay isn't fun at all, then this is an example of the game having serious problems in and of itself. The regular gameplay should be fun instead of the exploits, not the other way round. With regards to bosses, there could be multiple ways to obtain a boss item, or the boss item itself could be something desirable but not that huge of a loss if you never got it (such as the enlightened crown). I think the way boss combat has been done in the game is highly inappropriate for the game's theme and needs to be redone regardless (with a few exceptions). What I mean by that is raid bosses should not be a thing, bosses should come for you, due to one reason or another and should be balanced accordingly, and instead of purely fighting them head on, to use traps and magic items to kill them or at least fend them off, while it still being rewarding to engage this way. It would play more with the idea of running away from a big scary monster much more. Yes... are you making a counter-argument? Because so far you haven't really said anything. To me it is common enough to have reason to not have the "light" option even show up when hovering over with a torch. Is there even a reason you would like the ability to directly light a chest on fire at all? 1 hour of gameplay to notice, huh? You're too generous with your presumptions.
  2. To me it's unfortunately a novelty structure purely because why waste nightmare fuel on light when there are better, cheaper sources for that?
  3. Exploit based farms should not exist, period. They defeat a lot of the game's challenges and any sense of triumph, not to mention turning the game into something it clearly shouldn't be. Better solution would be to make drops playing the game normally more rewarding wherever a player would have desired to make a farm for a specific resource. A good example of this could be the celestial champion dropping stacks of moonglass over the course of the fight, giving you the most reliable and fun method of getting lots of that resource. This way the game stays rewarding while being engaging, instead of whatever farm you've come up with. "inflammable" and "unable to light something" are two completely different things that you appear to be conflating here. A structure that a player can't light on fire can still be flammable, burnt by external factors like wildfires, I explained this with my example of early stinger changes! I don't think you understand many of the examples that I'm presenting here or ways in which they could be implemented. By a "check" I mean a coded condition which checks if there is certain other flammable entity near what you are trying to light for example. If so, the character will refuse to light a tree, like I specified with the awake beefalo shaving example. NOT that something that has already been lit on fire wouldn't spread if there are things it can spread the fire from. The purpose of this is to stop players themselves from causing devastating catastrophes for everyone with the click of a button. Or do you prefer the ability to light your own base on fire for no reason at all? These sort of perspectives to me are pretty idiotic ways to look at balance and challenge, in a multiplayer setting nonetheless, not to mention how damaging this perspective has been to the game so far as it just scares or bores many new players away. Players being screwed over due to no fault of their own is not a good look on the game, I don't have much more to say about that. Having to waste 1 instead of 2 green gems to receive the same result that you would never use regardless because of so many other conditions, oh the audacity! Who in their right mind crafts any of the cheap structures with construction amulets to begin with? The whole "trial and error" thing is a whole different topic I don't really want to get into, but in short you are wrong. There is no such thing, more often than not this game boils down to having no learning curve at all and you can only truly learn from other players and looking up guides. Check out my topic about the combat gap, maybe you'll learn a thing or two about some of the game's problems and its incredibly flawed design in progression. https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/131243-the-combat-gap/?
  4. I'll say, you two either are game designers already or awaiting to be hired
  5. Griefing has been a big problem in the game at times when it happens and I never understood why there were no logical solutions implemented to prevent this. It has got to a point where I have heard people who host servers collectively keeping a list of people who grief to automatically ban them. What I have come to understand is that griefers in general may not even be malicious, they might do it just because they can and it's fun for them. In other words a "way to play the game" if you will. But there are clearly some behaviors that should be discouraged because it goes against the cooperative intent of the game. Anyone that does get attention from this can continue to do this precisely because they find the attention and chaos fun. Rolling back and kicking a player by vote only goes so far and it's making a situation worse at times when there was no intent to do so. Players can end up griefing unintentionally due to, for example, control conditioning from other games. Case in point a video, sponsored by Klei mind you, which to me shows how little Klei actually cares about this issue when they could very easily make it not an issue at all. At 9:05 burns science machine accidentally without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch. At 13:40 burns chest accidentally just without paying attention to the "light" option shown or the fact that they are holding a torch. Even funnier is the fact that the torch went out right after. Had he clicked a second later there would have been no second accident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caI2iufOpvA Despite how serious of a problem griefing is when it does happen and the fact that this can very easily happen by accident, there are only a few very specific ways you can actually grief in the game. This may not be the full list of them, but these are the most prominently potent ways and what very well can affect the game for people. * Burn and/or hammer the base crops, structures or possibly items with a Torch or a Fire Staff. * Light a creature on fire with a Torch, Fire Staff, Fire Dart or Scalemail when attacked, spreading the fire in places where you would never want to. * Spawn tentacles as Wickerbottom with On Tentacles book in a base, portal or other special location of interest. * Hammer a lightning rod if there is one and use End is Nigh as Wickerbottom to burn everything and kill everyone else around you with lightning. * Place a spider nest in or close to a base structures or the spawn portal. * Wall off the spawn location and anyone who doesn't know how to hold punch their way out will be stuck. If these conditions were addressed in robust ways we would have the most prominent types of greifing gone, pretty much impossible to execute. Klei could use the code conditioning already set for shaving the beefalo (as you cannot shave one when a Beefalo is awake) when a player attempts to light something on fire that they very clearly should not, to prevent lighting something on fire under certain conditions. Additionally or alternatively there could be no action presented to do so at all, as was the case with stingers when they were first made flammable. There are very simple solutions to this that could be taken to mitigate these problems. Here are some examples. * Make all flammable structures impossible to light on fire as a player. There is basically never a reason you would want to do this. The way the game is set, your life as a player matters less than the integrity of the base as reviving, even in its currently annoying and boring state, is less costly than repairing a portion of or the entirety of a decently sized base. * Make all flammable structures repairable by some item from its crafting components so we don't have to hammer a burnt structure, collect remains, possibly hammer nearby structures that may be blocking placement and then use extra resources just so we can rebuild something in the same spot. It is extra-step tedium made for no reason whatsoever and it is annoying. * Have some sort of checks in place so that a player cannot light something on fire, even a tree, which would spread further, period. This creates intent on lighting something on fire, even if oversimplified, to prevent potential chained fire griefing. * tentacles from On Tentacles book if it's done on swamp turf. This creates explicit intent and can mitigate it to a large extent. Marsh turf could also be made impossible to place within a large radius of the portal. * Planting spider eggs and effects from reading End is Nigh or On Tentacles should not execute in a decent radius of the portal, structures, or any "man-made" turf. * While holding the hammer and pressing spacebar near a structure, have nothing happen. Require the player to click in order to execute it so this doesn't happen by accident or you hit the wrong structure in a bunch. * All resources from a hammering a construction to be given back, there is no real reason to limit the resources given back as anyone who understands what is valuable in the game would never use a deconstruction staff on a structure anyway, but instead on certain rare items, which a hammer can't be used on at all. There are a few other problematic instances that infuriate me and other players with experience in the game which some newer players or otherwise may be negligent about, but they are not inherently griefing so I won't be addressing them here (such as losing valuable items, which would reuire much more care to detail to address). However I would like to mention that lighting crops like berry bushes, grass, twigs, cacti, reeds etc can ultimately become devastating if enough players who join condition themselves to keep doing that for light or heat source as they play on a longer server because these things don't respawn in the world at all or to such a specific and small extent it is negligible to the damage this causes over time. I see biomes that should be full of grass, saplings and more that have nothing because stuff was burnt by a player who was freezing on servers and resources like pig skin completely depleted. How is this fair to anyone? Why are you letting people be able to do this? All it would take are simple mechanical changes that would make all the difference, so please take note of this! I would even go as far as to say that lighting entire forests should not be possible to do in a multiplayer setting, it is better to have a controlled fire by burning trees one by one to get the charcoal. We could get charcoal by lighting logs on fire too if that was a possibility. The burning and other griefing type conditions are also something that can be updated over time when players encounter them (and we will), to make the system better, like was the case with Webber's rework as Klei added additional code through patches every time someone posted a problem about how Webber's spider mechanics needed extra conditions to work better. While on the subject matter, it would be good to have Webber's spiders exit the game with you and between shards, that is all that is needed to make the spider mechanics as they are done perfect.
  6. But it is one way to make them harder to set up. If the sunlight heated up the surface, there would also need to be respective cooling working as well unless we are fine with everything eventually overcooking and strange exploits coming to save your day for more experienced players. But this might require updating the radiation simulation for the DLC, which I don't know if Klei would even want to do at this point.
  7. Inexperienced players' experience is precisely what you should design a game around. If a player has trouble understanding something and the same or similar wall (or at least perceived one) appears that prevents the player from being able to progress in the game and there is a very clear correlation with many other new players, you have a very clear problem. Solutions can go many different ways, but the problem cannot stay unaddressed. My opinion has merit in that even if I'm not always presenting specific cases (in part I simply don't want to go on a tangent, many new "blind" playthroughs and some outside forum posts will reinforce my points in one way or another), I don't just come up with a random idea out of nowhere and stick to that needing to be part of the game, that doesn't make sense. As much as you may refuse to believe that, heat is the biggest problem and not one for a new player to solve because of how other essential systems work to exacerbate it. You will not learn unless you are provided reasonable and understandable options. Setting up warm and hot biomes right next to you on most players' first try of the game have and will continue to scare off many more players when this could be easily avoided by changing the biomes. I have seen many in fact but I have yet to see an opposing viewpoint presenting reasons that would trump that. The purpose of putting sugar engine availability past the teleporter would be to incentivise using the teleporters and expand players' reach. I believe you should require radbolts to recharge the teleporters in the first place because otherwise it's just shallow setup with no depth to problem solving, just wait till they recharge to use them again instead of figuring out radiation to take a better look at the other planetoid the next time... Anyway... You might rush petrol generators instead of using the sugar ones if you had this as the option. First and foremost petrol engines require tons of research points for higher tier research machines. Secondly I wouldn't expect new players to do that first time they get to colonise the second planetoid if there's oil there since the biome is a harder. Just because an option might be available doesn't mean the player will take it because they won't make the connection. I would probably take use of sugar engines on the second planetoid myself well before digging into the oil biome. It's clean to just stuff solids and there is no real mess in getting or generating some sugar earlier on in comparison to petroleum. There is also the steam generator before that, which a cool steam vent can come in handy to use for. At the end of the day you can rush petroleum engines but there is no and would still be no need to, and that's a good thing. Having to insulate your colony shows how shallow the early gameplay can really be, but that's a whole different topic. Terra is not as easy as it should be and the reason it should be even easier is because you should not make the player deal with heat. Instead make them learn just the fundamentals like setting up a toiletry system, decontaminate water (or at least dump germy water out of the system to be decontaminated later), set up beds, set up basic food sources, do research, learn about wiring their power grid. All of these systems are something that you must know and understand to some capacity early on no matter what. Heat systems really aren't and don't have to be. Yes things generate heat but the biggest heat problem comes from it seeping in or taking materials from dug out hotter biomes. Heat then overwhelms everything disproportionally and it goes from being a reasonable challenge to an insurmountable problem to stress over without a reasonably available solution. For me it's just boring and frustrating personally unless it's presented as an explicit challenge, like again, being the core theme of Aridio or some other planetoids because of how hard it is to work with without some meta solution. Slime and Jungle biomes are comparatively difficult to many other biomes to dig in and come out unscathed and unaffecting your colony or simply just them being nearby, they are perceived even more difficult than they actually are and the very fact that there is disconnect between perceived danger to what the actual danger end up is just as bad. That's why I think they should be as dangerous as they are perceived to be and not be an almost immediate issue/perceived issue on Terra. A better next problem to present to a new player after basic colony infrastructure could be just more basic pollution like in the Swamp biome without such deadly-looking germs as slimelung in Marsh, and just some chlorine to deal with with plus experiencing colder temperatures like in the Rust biome rather than hotter temperatures like in Jungle biome that will kill your crops. Marsh and Jungle teach nothing valuable if you present them this early on if the player attempts to just avoid them entirely out of fear, having players hit the mid-game wall as some might call it. The alternative and less danger costly biomes could stop this level of fear from taking effect and stopping progression for players. There is less merit to draw from when explicit evidence is not shown, that is fair, but it doesn't make my entire arguments instantly invalid. Do you have reason to believe that heat doesn't provide too much problems for new players? Why is that? All I ever hear is that heat is THE biggest problem for players going in blind, so if you disagree with that, tell me reasoning behind what you have seen. Design flaws should be identified and the heat problem is one such problem with the game at least in balance. I believe Rime overall being easier to be a fact due to my own experience, considering the heat problem and how far I have seen players progress when playing base game Terra vs then switching to Rime and the progress they experience through that. I have yet to see any example of this not being the case bar some engineers who think outside the box way more than anyone because they have knowledge of some systems that most other people will not. In general Rime has just been a much more pleasant experience. It is backwards, I think cold should be a bigger threat and Terra should be easier, but that is just how it is right now. In the previous post my arguments are a little all over the place so I will give you that. But my points are not just shallow "that's not my opinion", I am giving you solid reasons for them. If you want explicit evidence, would you have evidence to disprove the claim? I suppose the burden of proof lies on me first and foremost, but do you want me to go on an even longer tangent giving examples? I think it might go way too off-topic to show explicit examples and my in-depth reasoning behind them specifically, not to mention the time to gather all the evidence I have found before. Just check out some blind playthroughs, even from some more popular lets-players (who are not experienced players with ONI as one of their main forms of content) of the game. You will see the correlation... or you will get irritated from them not understanding meta solutions to the game, that's also a possibility. To me it seems you are clinging onto these biomes or leaving the difficulty of heat on Terra at this level at the very least because you have heavily argued in favour of that. If you didn't, me arguing against this idea would have been met with "yeah sure, whatever" but that is clearly not the case. Also if you have reasons to believe these biomes would be fine and are in fact the easiest option to have or whatever, is there anything from other player experience that has suggested that these 2 or 3 biomes are good to have on Terra right nearby? I really would just want more reasoning not piles of evidence. I know you mentioned this. But what is the reasoning behind this? I'm thinking maybe the players you saw this posted from did not try out Rime and Terra was the easiest they had experienced and that's why their arguments leaned towards that? I am just speculating I don't know for sure, so some clarification would be great. ... Also wanted to point out something about this point from earlier. I totally agree, but ultimately mostly cold geysers would make it much easier in the long term too as in place of a sealed/semi-sealed AQ/ST setup you would just put a tepidiser or a few in each and roughly insulate some geysers. Unless some of their output is extremely cold with high heat capacity and/or mass (like the concepts of liquid methane geyser or liquid oxygen geyser). But really we need frostbite cold damage as a mechanic that would put much more challenge in Rime.
  8. I don't understand why there is so much leniency and even encouragement to making AETN an extra special building with extra special building type requirements and conditions under which you can research and construct one. It is more straight forward to have one research and construction system, why would you explicitly confuse the player with weird gimmicks that actually don't make any sense? It is very odd to me that there is a specific demolition type to gravitas buildings instead of you just being able to deconstruct them. Why is it done this way? You could argue it's because they are tied to getting resources back like plastic which could somehow break the game, but you could change the material these POI are made out of instead incredibly easy and at the end of the day it is still very little material anyway. Plastic ladders? Well now they are made of a little bit of copper ore, not that difficult of a change. Don't get me wrong, I like the whole discovery aspect of new research data and buildings that is already out there at POIs but then it's best to rework the regular research system to fit together with this type of discovery as well. Why leave one system half baked while implementing a better one for a few other things or the other way round?
  9. I like designing living quarters inside rockets, but I totally agree. We need more space in these rockets. If we are going to stay with the whole idea of it being bigger on the inside as a pocket dimension then more space never hurt. I find myself micro-managing rocket missions way too much because at times you can't even fit in food for the journey and there is just no way to let a mission go and coming back after a little while when the rocket has already landed unless you had proper living quarters, which was much more possible to do when you could still break the rocket tiles. Things like a washroom, decontamination, CO2 scrubbing/venting, cooling are what you eventually have to deal with inside the rocket interior, but you can't really automate it that well possibly involving some exploit. No, I tested metal tile breaking, which Brothgar has created via debug long ago and you can break bounds by over pressurising the tiles with a liquid. Just above 125 tons of liquid was the breaking point for both the steel and diamond tiles I believe. And you could actually accomplish this without debug at least in the bigger module, it would be a lot of wasted liquid, but you can do it. There is also the possibility that a stressed out destructive duplicant breaking bounds hasn't been fixed, but I haven't tested that since I first saw it happen by almost an accident in one of the first Brothgar's playthroughs of the DLC.
  10. Not really, it gives more opportunities to try out each engine. For the Terra start, since that's where you are expected to start as a new player, CO2 engine before you teleport to the second planetoid, sugar engine before you tap into oil biome. Not all these routes will be taken, but it's more nuanced than slapping two engine options right out the gate. Gives more incentive to explore more with multiple things in a given area. I won't dwell on this much though it's simply a proposition that would work better in my opinion not only because of the engine dynamic but also because that could prove a more sensible way of introducing warmer temperatures nearby to the player. Point is that the idea of it being the most relaxed planetoid is false, especially compared to a few other ones. I have seen gameplay footage and heard the experience from multiple new players, and my own frustrations with the hotter surrounding temperatures of Terra being as hot as they are makes it very undesirable to play with the mindset of starting out or to relax. Not entirely sure what gravitates you to have some of these extra challenges and resource variations presented immediately to the player when they are learning the basics. Maybe you just like and can tolerate warmer temperatures more than cold for some reason, I certainly do not. Well again that is simply not true at all. My own experience and seeing some other gameplay of this showed it is in fact much easier to expand, collect and use resources and progress further even without reading guides on it. Early game is a little harder but past that point it's incredibly easy and you don't have to be an experienced player to recognise that on your own. All you have to do is insulate the area, you do that in base game Terra and many other planetoid types anyway especially if you want to continue growing early crop types for a while longer. I don't know why but you seem to be trying to desperately make cold for Rime specifically feel like a bigger threat than it actually is at least with the temperatures you're given to work with. Cold is a heat dump that buys you lots more time, that's why it works so well in letting you explore further parts of the game.
  11. I suppose magic or ancient variants of cooking pots could be a bit more like the old system without the need to take out food in time and such, which would balance it out and not make the additional system pointless. But having two different cooking systems side by side wouldn't feel right. I don't like the fact that we have two fishing rod types for no reason in particular, leaving both seems cheap and lazy. If we are going to have a decent overhaul, it should be done right with one system left in tact that works excellently.
  12. Can just move the appearance of this biome to the second planetoid. I mean the biome doesn't really teach you much essentials that will be imminently important in your first run, it's more about higher temperatures and plants that can withstand those higher temperatures. This way you are required to at least investigate that other planetoid if you want to get sugar engines going and it you don't do that the carbon engine would be your way of launching rockets. If one of the slush geysers in the cold biome was replaced with the cold CO2 geyser that could work out nicely if the player just ends up somehow skimming all their CO2 on the map instead of letting it pile up. I'm an experienced player and as it stands, no thank you, I would rather play Rime or Swamp start for a relaxed game because cold is almost a non-issue while hot temperatures and undeletable gases are much more tedious (Jungle and Rust will give you chlorine to your colony without any type of seal, pumping and filtering chlorine is more annoying than installing some salt vines to eat up the chlorine). Most of Terra's layout I would expect to find in something like Aridio, which I would gladly take on as a challenge, even harder than Terra is right now (no cold biomes), but I would not have a relaxed time growing mealwood and bristle blossoms on Terra for instance, it's just a ticking clock with the first few surrounding biomes.
  13. Pretty much agree with all of this (seems to have stemmed from my geyser-to-biome suggestion) except with the idea of keeping Jungle and Marsh biomes as secondary biomes in Terra, but you already know that. Would much prefer if the DLC's Aridio planetoids had those as secondary biomes with Rust and Swamp biomes replacing them on Terra. In fact the Wasteland biome could be part of Aridio as well with the Forest biome replacing that on the starting Terra planetoid. When talking about coming back to an easier difficulty, you bring a good point of discussion, but I don't agree with the train of thought you take from that. Experienced players could come back to test out new changes in a relaxed environment or to simply have a much more relaxing game if that's what you wanted and reflect on what they have learnt. I know that's what I would use Terra for if that were the case, we could all use chill gameplay from time to time and with that sort of biome layout Terra can be just that. Seeing your friends who are new to the game try it out for the first time in what might be a little challenging for them as they learn the ropes, but easy difficulty for you could prove fun as well.
  14. There is a better idea for use of a Mech suit found here (at least in my opinion): Duplicants being able to sit in magma without worry especially if you make use of these suits before digging into magma would take away massive challenge from the game as there would be no risk of duplicants scalding to death. Atmo suits are good enough to let your duplicants go in without getting scalded up to almost 1000C as is and I think it's balanced. Meanwhile we could use something that can help transport huge amounts of materials while making builds as building is the one most important yet slow aspect of the game even if you have multiple builders.
  15. Generating small amount of heat would require to have a cooling solution for them in the long run same as the batteries that store the power, so they then basically become like all the other generators in the game while taking up a lot of space without generating much power, just some extra for essential stuff. Additional materials like refined metal and especially plastic would limit the point in the game that you can build them further because you would need to get a glossry drecko farm going or refine oil. I don't see them as a huge problem or all that powerful, just a bit too early and easy to set up and I think this slight tweaking would balance them nicely. We are bound to get planetoids with meteor showers, maybe even some with starting planetoid as that, which would make solar power much more difficult to use and as a challenge starting world works, but not for easier difficulties or later planetoids you can land on that are further out. The notion that they are the only source of power you would ever use for everything is nonsense, you would probably just be slowing down progress in the game for yourself if you tried that.