Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[Hornete]

16 minutes ago, Well-met said:

klei fixed fuelweaver edge after ages,

That was more of a side effect with how they did the ocean stuff, rather than a direct intended fix iirc.

[Well-met]

Just now, Hornete said:

That was more of a side effect with how they did the ocean stuff, rather than a direct intended fix iirc.

beequeen oven too

but hey we'll take it.

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

...Klei has reacted to several posts about an “Uncompromising Mode"...

Funny thing regarding that precise mod, yes mod, as a "testing waters" aspect.

Current week (in relation to this post's time) it was used on the "Don't Fight Together" Endless Server 4, aka probably the most active DST community and server atm. With especially intermediate-to-advanced players, regulars numbering thousands of in-game days under their proverbial belts. Only mere days after starting a fresh gen with "Uncompromising Mod" on, I quote from their discord announcements section: "Due to poor reception, the Endless Server will undergo an emergency regen without Uncompromising Mode on. Stay tuned." After I enquired a bit, got answers like:

Quote

"Reason alot of people dont like it is because some changes change too much"

"I think the main problem was that thirty people voted for it, and the server was empty by day 22
Just a guess, but I don't think people megabase a lot on uncomp"

"Uncomp mode was a disaster"

Hence yeah, not a great example to give such "uncompromising" alternative to the populace at large. Not to mention said mod is made by "base haters" for edgy "base haters", since its main creators specifically mentioned in past disliking the Sandox and elaborate buildings aspect of it - reflected plenty in this more-or-less pseudo arena mobs&bosses rush/combat simulator - that, like the OP, emphasize a certain "meta": intricate kiting - with active suppression of "emergent game-play". Fun fact:

21 hours ago, Shosuko said:

There was one person who talked about hammering fire pits when people faught deerclops so they couldn't tank through his freeze "b/c its cHeEz."  What a D move.  Just don't be like that.

Yep, you guessed it, is about the "Uncompromising Mod" main dev and the philosophy behind said mod.

And to top it off, the few dedicated servers sporting "Uncompromising Mod" are always empty, except when some random player pops in-and-out in record time, out of curiosity. Is like this mod is "used" by the same people who usually come running with a Varg in communal base to troll pub goers for $hit and giggles - boosting about how they need it hardcore, but not for them... for the rest. Seemingly like OP of this thread.

 

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

beequeen oven too

but hey we'll take it.

BQ "oven" still works, but with Rope not Signs. I don't think the change behind it was aimed directly at that "oven" and/or not in the capacity you may believe it was.

[ZombieDupe]

Alright then, let's make the entire set of bosses easy to exploit with very simple walls or something you can get early on. Just sit there and press F, sound good? It's all optional, after all.

Let's say... Fuel weaver's bone cages should not spawn with walls put all around, or spider nests all around, oh and let's bring back the edge glitch that lets you cheese the bone cage mechanic entirely. Would you like that too?

[Falkenpelz]

No. No. No.

Please don't ever let that happen. Being able to change the way of a battle through the stuff you build in the world is a cool feature of sandbox games, to reward creative solutions and not make fights linear in a "there's only one way" style. 

[Yuuko]

25 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

iceflingomatic is the king of cheese since DS RoG

tbh - I'd trade ALL flingo cheese to get rid of summer wildfires XD

[fishofwar]

hmm yes i want dfly to only take damage from bug nets because Yes

[Monkey Cups]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

tbh - I'd trade ALL flingo cheese to get rid of summer wildfires XD

You've been able to turn off wildfires for a while now. Won't help on pubs I guess, but if you host the world at least.

[Duck986]

This topic is hot 2nd time in a day, wth.

[Mike23Ua]

27 minutes ago, Falkenpelz said:

No. No. No.

Please don't ever let that happen. Being able to change the way of a battle through the stuff you build in the world is a cool feature of sandbox games, to reward creative solutions and not make fights linear in a "there's only one way" style. 

But how does it effect you if you don’t want to join a world where the host has the area where Dragonfly spawns unable to place structures? If you don’t like it no one is forcing you to join those servers.

What OP wants is likely a way to play the fight the intended way (and with other players) without those other players using a method of fighting it because they know it as the “best most effective way.”

Imagine if Klei decided suddenly that all walls could be destroyed by almost any mob, this would be optional of course…. And maybe locked behind a toggle-able difficulty mode But just think of how many current META Strategies get completely eradicated from existence if walls had an additional code that allowed them to be destroyed or not.

When I talk about an Uncompromising MODE (not mod please don’t bring the mod into this) I’m talking very specifically about KLEI’S Own version of what they feel that should be- and walls being destructible sounds like a thing that should be considered for that.

I have plenty of other suggestions for an Uncompromising Mode: but that’s just the thing- Uncomp isn’t intended to be a mode where you Mega Base… uncomp should have new and exclusive features just for Uncomp such as having PIGMEN and Rabbits eat berry bushes and farm crops.

I don’t need to shoehorn in Uncomp suggestions into this thread because I’m Certain Klei is already plotting their own vision of what that should be… I only use the above as an EXAMPLE because just like adding an completely optional toggle for walls to be destructible by larvae giving suggestions can only improve the game.

If you don’t like the suggestions or the thoughts of an uncompromising mode (Mode not player created mod…) then simply don’t play using those settings?

But for people like myself and OP of this thread- Maybe we want a way for Dragonfly larvae to not be completely removed from her boss encounter?

[BezKa]

8 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

This topic is hot 2nd time in a day, wth.

Dragonfly has that effect on people.

[Yuuko]

22 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

You've been able to turn off wildfires for a while now. Won't help on pubs I guess, but if you host the world at least.

[Dr. Safety]

48 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Alright then, let's make the entire set of bosses easy to exploit with very simple walls or something you can get early on. Just sit there and press F, sound good? It's all optional, after all.

Let's say... Fuel weaver's bone cages should not spawn with walls put all around, or spider nests all around, oh and let's bring back the edge glitch that lets you cheese the bone cage mechanic entirely. Would you like that too?

Slippery slope fallacy. You know that just because Klei lets walls be used to wall things off, they aren't going to make all fights to become trivial. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But for people like myself and OP of this thread- Maybe we want a way for Dragonfly larvae to not be completely removed from her boss encounter?

I get your frustration, but I think you GRAVELY underestimate the difficulty of implementing something like "can't build X within a certain distance of Y". The possibilities are endless, but so would be the work going into that. I can't even think of a clean interface for a menu like that. People aren't telling you to mod it into the game because "haha get rekt xbox player", they are saying that because it would be a LOT effort for the devs to implement something that you seem to be the only one asking for.

 

I think the simplest solution for wanting to fight Dfly without walls would be this:

12 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

To me this sounds more of a break down in communication. However if people don't want to do your method even if you ask them just find a group that will. You're game experience can improve greatly if you find like minded individuals.

and if it is really impossible to find people that feel the same way you guys do about this fight, then why should Klei change it when clearly the overwhelming majority of their playerbase likes it the way it is?

[Mike23Ua]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I get your frustration, but I think majority of their playerbase likes it the way it is?

Doubtful- Majority of playerbase (on Xbox at least) can’t even fight it. Proven by this-

I took this photo today by the way. 0.89%

[fishofwar]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Doubtful- Majority of playerbase (on Xbox at least) can’t even fight it. Proven by this-

I took this photo today by the way. 0.89%

so your solution to this problem is to... make it even harder?

[Capybara007]

1 hour ago, ZombieDupe said:

Would you like that too?

Yes

[Dr. Safety]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Doubtful- Majority of playerbase (on Xbox at least) can’t even fight it. Proven by this-

I took this photo today by the way. 0.89%

If anything that speaks in favor of keeping walls since not having them means the fight is even more challenging. However even as an argument in favor of keeping walls, its an unreliable piece of evidence. I think I recall a joke about how low the percentage of players who built a science machine was?

I promise you, I'm not being a troll when I suggest this, but I honestly think you should try saving up for a laptop/PC. Unfortunately no amount of options added by the developers will ever come close to the customization that the mod workshop allows, you definitely are a guy who likes customization. I think it will really hone in on how you want to play this game.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Doubtful- Majority of playerbase (on Xbox at least) can’t even fight it. Proven by this-

I took this photo today by the way. 0.89%

Stats without context.  I don't have official xbox stats but here is what I see

https://www.trueachievements.com/game/Dont-Starve-Together/achievements

Of xbox population that tracks their achievements here 26% made it into their first winter, and only 7% survived a full year.  I think this shows a good scale of the drop off of people who have "played" dst (loaded up the game at least once) compared to those who actually play it.  On this site it shows 2% of people who track here have defeated dfly.  So of the 7% that actually survived a year over 25% of them also defeated dfly.  That isn't actually isn't that bad tbh!

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, ZombieDupe said:

Let's say... Fuel weaver's bone cages should not spawn with walls put all around, or spider nests all around, oh and let's bring back the edge glitch that lets you cheese the bone cage mechanic entirely. Would you like that too?

The way you said this indicates you do not know how difficult this glitch was to pull off in practice.

Yes, if you were the top 0.01% of skilled players and you kept in mind the cooldown of the cage while doing the entire fight, you could certainty use the edge to make the cage attack fully negated. The thing is though, this was almost never the case. You were bound to make a mistake that left you off the edge and get fully ensnared, especially if you were trying to take out the unseen hands to drop the shield.

Also, even if you negate the cage, you negate one of the five-six things that makes the fuelweaver fight incredibly difficult. You do not negate it's shield, or it's mind control, or it's minions it can use to fully heal, or it's massive -400 sanity per minute aura because you are skillful enough to dodge the cage by using the edge of the world every time it popped up. 

[Mike23Ua]

When are people going to just start being honest? The reason WHY people use those walls is because it’s the most effective & easiest way..

A problem that surges directly from the boss fight itself, in contrast: If Klei made the fight actually easier to do and the boss didn’t have ridiculous levels of health &/or larvae minions, more people would actually play the fight without building walls.

And if the fight were made easier as a whole: Then cool ideas like having larvae splash a wall you built like a bucket of water and seep through its cracks to re-form itself on the other side could be implemented.

Again baring in mind that the entire fight was made easier to do.

If Klei choose to make Larvae Explode into walls like a Minecraft creeper, building the walls is still a valuable strategy in slowing them down.. but it is NOT an Instant-Win strategy…. Where CURRENTLY it Is.

And that’s been my entire point: Build Wall, be Urber Elite Champion Status, or don’t fight her at all.

What other choices do you have left?

[Capybara007]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

When are people going to just start being honest? The reason WHY people use those walls is because it’s the most effective & easiest way..

A problem that surges directly from the boss fight itself, in contrast: If Klei made the fight actually easier to do and the boss didn’t have ridiculous levels of health &/or larvae minions, more people would actually play the fight without building walls.

And if the fight were made easier as a whole: Then cool ideas like having larvae splash a wall you built like a bucket of water and seep through its cracks to re-form itself on the other side could be implemented.

Again baring in mind that the entire fight was made easier to do.

If Klei choose to make Larvae Explode into walls like a Minecraft creeper, building the walls is still a valuable strategy in slowing them down.. but it is NOT an Instant-Win strategy…. Where CURRENTLY it Is.

And that’s been my entire point: Build Wall, be Urber Elite Champion Status, or don’t fight her at all.

What other choices do you have left?

If you dont like using that method dont use it

If you dont like people using that method play alone

If you cant understand that there isnt a lot more to say

[Starlogy]

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

but it is NOT an Instant-Win strategy…. Where CURRENTLY it Is

Walls at Dfly = instant win????

Buddy, you still gotta fight the thing.

[Nettalie]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

If Klei choose to make Larvae Explode into walls like a Minecraft creeper, building the walls is still a valuable strategy in slowing them down.. but it is NOT an Instant-Win strategy…. Where CURRENTLY it Is.

And that’s been my entire point: Build Wall, be Urber Elite Champion Status, or don’t fight her at all.

What other choices do you have left?

Not only is it not an instant-win strategy, there's still a fair bit of prep work or "skill" involved in kiting even when just facing df on her own.

As for asking what other choices are left other than building walls, fighting her on her own or not at all, it seems to me you're losing sight of the fact that you can not only just cage up individual pools so you still have some lavae to fight, but dont negate them entirely, as well as the fact that people using walls shouldnt bother you if you choose not to do so.

If you host your own server then simply communicate with the players that join, come to a consensus on what youd like to do and not to do and then just play the game the way youd like.
There are ways for you to enjoy the game how YOU specifically would like to, by imposing your own house rules so to speak, deciding your own difficulty, etc. Just because the option for players to use a simple and effective way of dealing with something does not mean that way is the only way and that everyone has to abide by any option no matter how effective.

The only times I will ever advocate for anything being changed or removed about the game is when a really large chunk of the playerbase does not enjoy a feature in its current state.

If most players dont mind cheese methods being part of the game and so long as doing things without the cheese is not extremely unbearable for most players, then it is simply a thing of preference on whether someone will utilize it or not.
If however a mechanic is entirely and I do mean ENTIRELY trivialized because something else is either always better or just it simply is not fun for most people to deal with it without any cheese, then I would say it makes more sense to tackle that mechanic and take a closer look at it.

Obviously that is not an entirely one sided thing where things fall into either of these two cases, they're just supposed to explain my thought process behind what I think are well designed aspects of the game and what I do not think are well designed aspects.

The whole dragonfly example for instance is a case where some adjustments would make wall cheese not even necessary and might make the fight as a whole more enjoyable for players, but in its current state walls are just what most people default to. The walls should still be a tool to be utilized by players if they like, but if things are adjusted then maybe some players will opt not to even use them since now they can enjoy the fight without having to cut off the lavae.
You can find a bit of both of the cases I talked about in this.

 

[MondayNight]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

..building the walls is ... an Instant-Win strategy…

Our of curiosity, Mike: have you fought DF till now? And no, not with Gunpowder. Melee weapon of choice and, preferably, kiting.

[Nettalie]

1 minute ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Our of curiosity, Mike: have you fought DF till now? And no, not with Gunpowder. Melee weapon of choice and, preferably, kiting.

hold on wait
I just realized, wouldn't using stacks of gunpowder also be a sort of cheese because they can just "skip" a large amount of health at a time?