Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[Mike23Ua]

If you want to fight it differently- You can.. provided the other players in the server LET you fight it differently, But look around: Doing things Differently is what Klei has been doing to the game for the past 3 Years.. if You think for one second this fight isn’t on their radar and subject to being done differently- Your poorly Mistaken & can go back and find one of those various now locked threads similar to this one: Where even the devs at KLEI comment saying they admit they could’ve done things a bit differently.

With that said I am sick of these arguments where people are crying “if Klei stops wall strategy’s I’ll just build Ice Flingos or bring Ice Staffs..” Did you completely miss the part about doing things DIFFERENTLY? Maybe in this “New Different” version of the fight: Klei considers Larvae to be so Hot that any Ice strat you try to use on them just completely melts off their bodies being not as effective.

You tell me I need to play this fight 50,000x to understand it, and I’m telling you I don’t HAVE to Understand it… because all this time All these posts- I’ve been thinking about the “We could’ve done things Differently.”

[Zeklo]

9 minutes ago, Snugrugbug said:

You can just run away from deerclops

I'm going to assume you didn't watch the video. Regardless you still missed the point.

Choosing to run away from Deerclops is a choice. Whether you choose to fight or run from Deerclops has consequences, but you don't get to choose when you make that choice. 

You wouldn't run from Deerclops if you're capable (or believe to be capable) of killing it. The only reason "run" (a suboptimal choice) is even a choice is because that decision is forced upon the player. The only reason you make an suboptimal choice with a Raid Boss is because you specifically want to handicap yourself.

[Yuuko]

19 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

With that said I am sick of these arguments where people are crying “if Klei stops wall strategy’s I’ll just build Ice Flingos or bring Ice Staffs..” Did you completely miss the part about doing things DIFFERENTLY? Maybe in this “New Different” version of the fight: Klei considers Larvae to be so Hot that any Ice strat you try to use on them just completely melts off their bodies being not as effective.

You tell me I need to play this fight 50,000x to understand it, and I’m telling you I don’t HAVE to Understand it… because all this time All these posts- I’ve been thinking about the “We could’ve done things Differently.”

The reason we say such things is to illustrated that this one change will do basically nothing to stop cheese.  A million things will need to be changed until you're eventually forced into a box where your only crafting tabs are weapons and armor and you load an instance to combat each boss with nothing else available until it dies or you die.  Removing walls, making lavae jump over or through them, even make lavae 1000000 degrees and someone will find some way to cheese it, and guess what - Klei will have spend countless hours removing things from the game until there isn't a game left.  And why?  Because some wanna be try-hard didn't have the willpower to not build a wall himself when he fights dfly solo on his own world?  And no, "make it on toggle" is not the answer either...

The problem is entirely on the player side.  As a player, you gotta understand that sandbox games like DST lend themselves to exactly this type of play.  I wouldn't even play this game if all I did was fight these monsters with weapons and armor tabs.  imo that's the most boring thing to do.  If you don't find that fun, and have such a weak will that you can't even play the game how you want on your own world b/c some guy online made a video about putting up a wall in dfly, then you really gotta find a different game to play...

I mean honestly of *all* the boss cheese the wall on dfly is the most inane thing to bother complaining about as you've still got to fight a pretty powerful boss regardless.  Why isn't this thread about AG pillar cheese, or bee queen ovens, or bugging AFW?  Bees on Crab King?  SOMETHING better than eliminating a single element of a multifaceted boss like dfly...  What is this?  Its hard to think this person has any experience with DST, its bosses, or its cheese if *this* is what they're gonna gripe about...

[zacqiang]

At this point of the thread, I'm just getting the feeling of people arguing only for the sake of it.

[Mike23Ua]

“doing things differently” does NOT just mean “make harder”

Doing things differently can mean a Myriad of different possible things- such as but not limited to: making the boss scale in loot, health, damage output, and even combat capabilities based on how many players are fighting it.

You see it as unnecessary, I see it as something Klei has already made posts about that they could revisit in the future: Doing things Differently- Doesn’t just mean take away strategies, it Could ALSO Mean all new mechanics- Such as but not just limited to: Having Firefly vomit up fire puddles that create even MORE (non stationary highly predictably placed) Lava Ponds based upon how many players are fighting Her. (Not too much differently from how Pangolden in Hamlet walk around sucking up water ponds.)

Doing things differently could mean THESE THINGS now have a chance to spawn from those ponds throwing fireballs at your face.

“Doing Things Differently” could actually Mean that Wigfrids Fireproof scroll may actually get used more often..

But my entire point all this time has been if Klei wants to re-imagine this fight, some people will love Dragonfly 2.0, and many people will hate the new version wanting back the old one..

Thats when OPTIONS become OPTIMAL.

[ZombieDupe]

30 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Wow, this video actually covers a lot of my feelings on recent DST.
I talk about Health Walls being one of my huge dislikes about the raid bosses, but this made me realize something else.

There's basically no risk, because there's no benefit to risk.

Permadeath as a whole dissuades risk, but optional content even more so. You choose when (or if) you want to fight Raid Bosses [for example]. As a result, there is no reason to not go in with the utmost preparation. Sure you can gimp yourself to make it harder, but that's arbitrary difficulty. It's not like Deerclops where you're on a timer, and are forced to go in with whatever you've scrounged (for that first year). In this case, there's no benefit to actually fighting the lavae. Killing them doesn't pull the fight in your favor or grant some extra drop or anything. It's a level of risk that can be avoided entirely by these methods. So unless you're trying to be a 'purist' or do a challenge run or something then there's no reason.

I think that's why my interest in DST has dropped so much. It's lost it's thrill. Everything is so clockwork.

Congratulations! You figured it out!

In addition to risk, there is also effort assessment. How can I achieve what I want with low risk and with the least amount of effort? That is why the wall method is so prevalent and it ruins half of the fight.

25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

If you want to fight it differently- You can.. provided the other players in the server LET you fight it differently, But look around: Doing things Differently is what Klei has been doing to the game for the past 3 Years.. if You think for one second this fight isn’t on their radar and subject to being done differently- Your poorly Mistaken & can go back and find one of those various now locked threads similar to this one: Where even the devs at KLEI comment saying they admit they could’ve done things a bit differently.

With that said I am sick of these arguments where people are crying “if Klei stops wall strategy’s I’ll just build Ice Flingos or bring Ice Staffs..” Did you completely miss the part about doing things DIFFERENTLY? Maybe in this “New Different” version of the fight: Klei considers Larvae to be so Hot that any Ice strat you try to use on them just completely melts off their bodies being not as effective.

You tell me I need to play this fight 50,000x to understand it, and I’m telling you I don’t HAVE to Understand it… because all this time All these posts- I’ve been thinking about the “We could’ve done things Differently.”

They have said and continue to say that about a lot of things. Actions (patches/updates) speak louder than words. During one stream they mentioned wanting to even change something about bunnymen attacking you for carrying meat? Nothing has been attempted to make a change with that to my knowledge. The latest patch of "QOL" was mostly focused on pausing the game and that's about it. I don't want them to rush things overall, I worry in fact because of the sudden change to releasing small patches of things, but certain things can be tweaked to open up great new avenues for diverging gameplay. We did get Wanda and besides not thinking her downside is done right or made tough enough I think in terms of mechanics overall she works pretty well and you can see quite a bit of effort put into making the watches and her mechanics work well.

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The reason we say such things is to illustrated that this one change will do basically nothing to stop cheese.  A million things will need to be changed until you're eventually forced into a box where your only crafting tabs are weapons and armor and you load an instance to combat each boss with nothing else available until it dies or you die.  Removing walls, making lavae jump over or through them, even make lavae 1000000 degrees and someone will find some way to cheese it, and guess what - Klei will have spend countless hours removing things from the game until there isn't a game left.  And why?  Because some wanna be try-hard didn't have the willpower to not build a wall himself when he fights dfly solo on his own world?  And no, "make it on toggle" is not the answer either...

The problem is entirely on the player side.  As a player, you gotta understand that sandbox games like DST lend themselves to exactly this type of play.  I wouldn't even play this game if all I did was fight these monsters with weapons and armor tabs.  imo that's the most boring thing to do.  If you don't find that fun, and have such a weak will that you can't even play the game how you want on your own world b/c some guy online made a video about putting up a wall in dfly, then you really gotta find a different game to play...

I mean honestly of *all* the boss cheese the wall on dfly is the most inane thing to bother complaining about as you've still got to fight a pretty powerful boss regardless.

I completely disagree with this and I don't think there's an easy way to explain all the reasons why, so I'll just leave it at the fact that I think you're wrong on multiple things here, especially in regards to player behavior.

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

“Doing Things Differently” could actually Mean that Wigfrids Fireproof scroll may actually get used more often..

But my entire point all this time has been if Klei wants to re-imagine this fight, some people will love Dragonfly 2.0, and many people will hate the new version wanting back the old one..

Thats when OPTIONS become OPTIMAL.

Observing your prior points on different topics it seems you put too much faith into options. Options won't solve everything, in fact a lot of the time they will barely solve anything. They could complicate things. There is also the question of whether you force a player to make a decision, or you make a default and put way too many options behind way too many tabs. Too many options isn't a good thing in and of itself either, then the player will not be able to make a choice and will go with whatever. If they don't like given options, it then becomes an iterative process, or they give up, or they don't even realise they have more options to go through they don't care to go through, which isn't great, which is why a default and common recommendations exist in the first place. Few options, but ones that are done well by a designer I would say is the best. This is how we get modes, presets and difficulty options.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I completely disagree with this and I don't think there's an easy way to explain all the reasons why, so I'll just leave it at the fact that I think you're wrong on multiple things here, especially in regards to player behavior.

How can I be wrong about player behavior when people regularly fight the bosses under many different methods because they enjoy the type of skill it involves when they don't use any cheese?  The AG is a great example because pillar cheese is so easy to do, and readily available - yet there are a lot of players who regularly kite, dodge, and attack AG to death in the middle of his arena just because they want to.

You are the player who is unable to not build a wall in your own game even when you claim you don't want to...  Other players are doing what they want in the game regardless of what else can be done.

Note - this video is from the same player that posted that bee queen cheese footage I shared before.

Spoiler

 

So... you're wrong.  Players don't always default to play the game in the easiest way possible.  When they want to challenge the game in a skillful way with self imposed limitations they do so.  You don't have a problem with DST, you have a problem with your own will to impose the challenges on yourself you claim to want.

One challenge I like is disabling my attack button and seeing how much I can do in the game.  I do this because combat doesn't interest me nearly as much as turning the world on its self.  You do you buddy, I can only do me.

[Summ4r]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:50 AM, ZombieDupe said:

There is a fun battle to be had with ice staves or even just regularly with other players when you don't use walls. Walls just take the chaos out of the equation and it's not all that hard to set them up for fighting Dragonfly. I don't see anyone fighting dragonfly any other way unless it's for a specific speedrun and it's also sad because you can get rocks freezing the larva, doesn't help that the blue gems just keep piling up. I can't fight the dragonfly without an exploit if everyone else in the party is aiming to use it because they can and it's easy.

While we're on the topic of staves, why not increase their durability, and ice staff especially? Making something freeze on one hit regardless of what creature it is (unless it's marked as immune) sounds fair when you consider that unfreezing something requires one hit as well.

It could take a little effort but making the Dragonfly's larva able to jump over walls would make them less useful, at least for short walls. Otherwise, they could attack them, if that overrides some of the pathfinding algorithm under certain conditions. I think this is a larger discussion about mob AI really which should be revisited though because walls are never used for real defence unless you limit yourself and surround everything in a circle with nothing but walls and maybe a fence or two around you. What fun is it when the walls mean nothing because all creatures path-find around them with a single opening they would logically have no way of knowing about? The AI is too good that it ends up bad is what I'm saying 

just find people who want to kill df without walls, don't come here and force everyone to do it your way, it's disgusting, not everyone is as hardcore as you are

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Summ4r said:

just find people who want to kill df without walls, don't come here and force everyone to do it your way, it's disgusting, not everyone is as hardcore as you are

I feel as if your all missing my point:

“Doing things differently”

Could mean the boss is actually EASIER to kill and therefore doesn’t require the player to be quote “Hardcore” 

Just because I say scary things like walls now explode, lava ponds are now no longer statically placed and she now instead vomits those out and sucks them back up randomly (like Pangolden do ponds in Hamlet DLC) or that Magma Golems can now spawn from the ponds- it doesn’t mean that the fight was made HARDER….

She could become easier to kill, the Larvae and Golems minor nuisances at best.. Just because it SOUNDS Scary- Doesn’t mean it actually will be.

I personally would like her high health sponge of a tedious fight to be brought down in tedium… but re-design the fight like the above examples to be more exciting.

[Summ4r]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I feel as if your all missing my point:

“Doing things differently”

Could mean the boss is actually EASIER to kill and therefore doesn’t require the player to be quote “Hardcore” 

Just because I say scary things like walls now explode, lava ponds are now no longer statically placed and she now instead vomits those out and sucks them back up randomly (like Pangolden do ponds in Hamlet DLC) or that Magma Golems can now spawn from the ponds- it doesn’t mean that the fight was made HARDER….

She could become easier to kill, the Larvae and Golems minor nuisances at best.. Just because it SOUNDS Scary- Doesn’t mean it actually will be.

I personally would like her high health sponge of a tedious fight to be brought down in tedium… but re-design the fight like the above examples to be more exciting.

therefore i saw a misunderstanding here. what you said now i totally agree. but what you guys been said before makes me feel you just hate the fact that most people use walls and you want that to be changed, because it makes the fight much easier, too easy for your taste, so you suggest klei to ban the wall completely. i think Everyone who use walls will hate you guys if klei actually took your advice like that. my first impression when i saw comments like these is 'a bunch of assholes who wants to force other players to be as hardcore as they are' . since you made it clear that you just want the fight to be more interesting, not just making the fight harder to your taste, i totally accept it. but i think bee queen, in some way, already resembles what you want df to be, since if you want to use walls to make little bees can't reach you, its actually way more complicated than merely walled them off to the other side. and i personally don't like using it, because it seems a bug to me, maybe that's the way you see with people using walls with larvae. so i kind of wonder how do you like bq?

[JoeW]

Hey everybody. It's ok to have different opinions. 

You're all part of a community that cares about Don't Starve Together. It's ok to have different opinions about it. 

But be cool to each other, please. 

[marioespinho]

7 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

You can't trivialise the bee queen to the extent that you can dragonfly.

Actually you can trivialize it even more. Just build a ton of bunny houses and run in circles until she's dead...

6 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

My problem is that I feel no need to use any alternative method when this method is as easy to set up and use. There is no practical reason to use any other method, so most times you won't use any other and to me that is a problem.

Then YOU have a problem, not the game. The fights can be as hard as you want them to be, so if you can't resist making them easier don't try to put that on game development.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Which is NOT the same as what I’ve been saying the past 15 pages (exaggeration obviously..) of this thread: If Harder or a different Versions of this fight were made available: People can Have it where walls work, and then also (for those who want it or will use it..) Have it where Walls won’t work at all.

Same as above. You can make this fight as hard on you as you want. And people who make it easier wouldn't have it any other way unless KLEI forced them to, so giving more options wouldn't change anything at all.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

So bassicaly the topic is about a guy that cant resist cheese knowing that he will have more fun without cheese

Imagine forcing everybody to play in the way he cant force himself to play hahahahahah

[prettynuggets]

ummm .. the more i read more i convinced that these people who want cheese terminated just want friend that have same vision of "no cheesing boss" gameplay ... 
they want it on option so they can find friend easier that share same opinion ??
cus most public server they join found bunch of kids with walled df ? 


or u just feel the superiority when u back to their base with boss loot that u can kill without placing any walls ?

[Mike23Ua]

21 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

Same as above. You can make this fight as hard on you as you want. And people who make it easier wouldn't have it any other way unless KLEI forced them to, so giving more options wouldn't change anything at all.

Yeah see the thing is, I was there during the developmental stages for State of Decay 2 to give ideas & Suggestions on their forums, as I am doing here now on Klei’s Forums for as long as Klei is doing updates to the game and have no plans of stopping development projects on it anytime soon. 

Warning I’m going to go into a long a probably highly off topic detailed explanation in the spoiler below:

Click at your own Risk.

Spoiler

When the developers at Undead Labs started asking the community questions of how do we make State of Decay 2 different from SoD 1? Alot of people gave many ideas & when people were throwing out a lot of crazy suggestions for a lot of changes MANY Players weren’t agreeing with luckily I happened to be playing Dont Starve & it’s DLC Shipwrecked at that time.

So I brought up ideas for content I experienced in DS & Shipwrecked that was befitting of what SOD Was.. for example- I fell in love with Klei’s poison damage over time bleed out effect, and so I went to the Dev team behind SoD & I suggested zombies that when they do enough damage to the player- Inflicts them with this same bleed out mechanic- Essentially giving the player a limited time to find ingredients to find a cure and heal themselves. So technically: You can thank DS Shipwrecked for SoD 2 having Blood Plagued infected at all.

But that’s not where Dont Starves mechanics ends for SoD 2, when difficulty “Modes” were brought up- each mode had different changes: Such as Easy having less Blood Plagued infected, vehicles always appearing in excellent condition and full of gas, flip the switch to Nightmare and Blood Plague is Everywhere, every vehicle is destroyed needing a repair kit and is low or empty on gas..

These changes are there because I had been playing with Dont Starves Customization Menus.. when hounds killed me and I could never get past them I would turn them off.. when I felt getting a certain resource was too easy I set it to spawn less or not at all..

I actually have thank you letters & free swag for helping the developers find inspiration on where they wanted to focus State of Decay 2’s game direction- it wasn’t just DS I was throwing ideas out for: I also happened to be able to take part in the Divisions Beta Phase and I absolutely LOVED how weapons realistically hung off your characters backpack or in gun straps attached to their legs..instead of just appearing magically out of nowhere.

The TL:DR of my point- I helped shape SoD  into what it is today.. and I did that using ideas and features Dont Starve already HAD that went heavily under utilized.

NOW SoD 2 not only has alternate difficulty settings- but it also has a slider system so you can pick and choose what changes from the different difficulties you want applied to your world, and what ones you absolutely want no part of your game.

Im saying it works because SOD 2 PROVES IT WORKS. And it only works in SoD 2 because of how I saw that it COULD work in Dont Starve.

When I give these ideas on these forums, I don’t expect the developers to implement every single idea I give out.. (good god that that would be terrible) a lot of the ideas I suggested for SoD 2 were met with a hard no we aren’t going to do that, but a good many of them were used, and a few are still being saved for SoD 3- Hence the thank you letters & free swag for helping shape the future of their game.

And NOW it’s time to see if those very same settings from Klei’s Games that helped shape SoD2 continues to go highly under utilized by Klei, or if they will use this as a way to cater to each individual play preference in the future.

I just don’t want something that worked for SoD to go under-ultilized in the game the inspiration was taken from.

[prettynuggets]

i hope i have that motivation to write my essay assignment  

[nikk]

Maybe Klei should allow better mods of bosses and other mobs so that everyone is happy with their mod?

[1bubbainpa]

10 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

My problem is that I feel no need to use any alternative method when this method is as easy to set up and use. There is no practical reason to use any other method, so most times you won't use any other and to me that is a problem.

It seems that it literally is a you only problem. Let other people play how they want to play.

[marioespinho]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah see the thing is, I was there during the developmental stages for State of Decay 2 to give ideas & Suggestions on their forums, as I am doing here now on Klei’s Forums for as long as Klei is doing updates to the game and have no plans of stopping development projects on it anytime soon. 

Warning I’m going to go into a long a probably highly off topic detailed explanation in the spoiler below:

Click at your own Risk.

  Reveal hidden contents

When the developers at Undead Labs started asking the community questions of how do we make State of Decay 2 different from SoD 1? Alot of people gave many ideas & when people were throwing out a lot of crazy suggestions for a lot of changes MANY Players weren’t agreeing with luckily I happened to be playing Dont Starve & it’s DLC Shipwrecked at that time.

So I brought up ideas for content I experienced in DS & Shipwrecked that was befitting of what SOD Was.. for example- I fell in love with Klei’s poison damage over time bleed out effect, and so I went to the Dev team behind SoD & I suggested zombies that when they do enough damage to the player- Inflicts them with this same bleed out mechanic- Essentially giving the player a limited time to find ingredients to find a cure and heal themselves. So technically: You can thank DS Shipwrecked for SoD 2 having Blood Plagued infected at all.

But that’s not where Dont Starves mechanics ends for SoD 2, when difficulty “Modes” were brought up- each mode had different changes: Such as Easy having less Blood Plagued infected, vehicles always appearing in excellent condition and full of gas, flip the switch to Nightmare and Blood Plague is Everywhere, every vehicle is destroyed needing a repair kit and is low or empty on gas..

These changes are there because I had been playing with Dont Starves Customization Menus.. when hounds killed me and I could never get past them I would turn them off.. when I felt getting a certain resource was too easy I set it to spawn less or not at all..

I actually have thank you letters & free swag for helping the developers find inspiration on where they wanted to focus State of Decay 2’s game direction- it wasn’t just DS I was throwing ideas out for: I also happened to be able to take part in the Divisions Beta Phase and I absolutely LOVED how weapons realistically hung off your characters backpack or in gun straps attached to their legs..instead of just appearing magically out of nowhere.

The TL:DR of my point- I helped shape SoD  into what it is today.. and I did that using ideas and features Dont Starve already HAD that went heavily under utilized.

NOW SoD 2 not only has alternate difficulty settings- but it also has a slider system so you can pick and choose what changes from the different difficulties you want applied to your world, and what ones you absolutely want no part of your game.

Im saying it works because SOD 2 PROVES IT WORKS. And it only works in SoD 2 because of how I saw that it COULD work in Dont Starve.

When I give these ideas on these forums, I don’t expect the developers to implement every single idea I give out.. (good god that that would be terrible) a lot of the ideas I suggested for SoD 2 were met with a hard no we aren’t going to do that, but a good many of them were used, and a few are still being saved for SoD 3- Hence the thank you letters & free swag for helping shape the future of their game.

And NOW it’s time to see if those very same settings from Klei’s Games that helped shape SoD2 continues to go highly under utilized by Klei, or if they will use this as a way to cater to each individual play preference in the future.

I just don’t want something that worked for SoD to go under-ultilized in the game the inspiration was taken from.

But you aren't really suggesting anything that can have any impact where you see a problem, unless it was enforced on players. 

Unless I understood wrong, the problem you see is joining a server and trying to fight Dfly the "correct" way and being unable to because people use walls there. So you request an option to either make larvae jump over the walls or a biome where they can't even be placed. 

Even if Klei added such options, why would the people that built the walls in the first place choose options tht counter said walls? So unless it is enforced on players, it makes no sense since it wouldn't change anything at all...

I would understand if you had any issues with the boss itself or how the fight plays out, but you only have an issue with a (valid imo) way that other players choose to approach the fight, that can easily be counteracted by getting like-minded people to play with you or host your own world...

[Mike23Ua]

No my problem (unrelated to Zombiedupes problem of personal willpower not to do it) is that I want to be the HOST of my world and to apply different settings to my world that forces anyone who joins my world (or forces anyone who joins a Klei official server with the same settings toggled) to play by that worlds particular set of rules.

See over on Xbox we don’t have mods, so the just create your own mod answer doesn’t work for everyone- And what I want the toggles to do, goes beyond most mod capabilities-

Im pretty sure KLEI eventually plans to incorporate harder content: Rather Thats in the form of a new game mode, a new set of biomes, a New game + that requires building a portal and going to the Moon whatever it is they plan on doing…. Things are about to get harder, they changed Fishing Mechanics to be more in depth, they changed Farming Mechanics to be more in depth…

But when they start updating OLD Biomes with NEW Content (something you see a lot of players continuously asking for..) that’s when things get tricky- because how do you still let people enjoy the game the way it plays NOW without those newer updates making it Too hard on players who still struggle with the old versions of the fights and Biomes?

What I am suggesting- goes far far beyond just rather or not you can place a wall, I’m talking full fledge reworked A.I. Of the boss, new features and Mechanics- The best example I can provide:

Imagine if Dragonfly’s magma ponds were completely removed from the fight, and instead of having completely stationary ponds that you can build walls around: Firefly now Instead flies around vomiting out magma ponds in her biome randomly, and then sucking them back up (much like the Pangolden do with ponds in Hamlet)

You wouldn’t be able to just BUILD a Wall anymore because she would fly on the other side of your wall and randomly spit out a pond to have larvae flank you.

Its not just about rather or not you can build a wall- it’s about updating old biomes with new content and mechanics, But…

How do you DO THAT without also making this fight highly unenjoyable for the people who enjoy it the way it plays now?

Everything I’ve fought for, the past few pages of this thread, of my thread, or of any thread that discuss adding features that make the game any easier or harder: I’ve tried (and maybe I’ve failed miserably) at trying to come up with ways to satisfy players who WANT things to change, while at the same time, not ruining the game for the ones who never asked for the change.

In Conclusion: Since I play around with world Gen settings ALOT on a daily basis- There are OPTIONS to host your world as “Classic” or “Together” 

But what the heck does that even actually mean?! I will tell you what it SHOULD Mean: It should mean anyone who wants to play a Biome Pre-Rework can play that way, while everyone wanting to see those biomes get a 2022 overhaul can enjoy changes.

We are all playing the same game, some people want to see massive changes, where as others… don’t want change.

Everything I’ve ever posted: rather it was off-topic or not, has been to try and come up with ways for everyone’s playing preferences to Co-Exist without clashing.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

forces

what an ungly word...

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

ummm .. the more i read more i convinced that these people who want cheese terminated just want friend that have same vision of "no cheesing boss" gameplay ... 
they want it on option so they can find friend easier that share same opinion ??
cus most public server they join found bunch of kids with walled df ? 


or u just feel the superiority when u back to their base with boss loot that u can kill without placing any walls ?

Sometimes its this, sometimes its just because other people get there first.

The Uncompromising Mod ppl were like you say - they would defeat a boss and people wouldn't care.  The bosses get defeated all the time, and no one cares if you use a wall for dfly or not, but they wanted praise as if they came in to save the server from their own noobness.  So they made a mod to remove every way to fight a boss they didn't like, but playing on their own modded server wasn't enough - they had to always bring it up in the forums.  Every post was like "well I play on Uncompromising mode so such cheese tactics are fixed and I have to really fight the boss" blah blah.

There was a thread some time ago where a player complained endlessly about how the ruins needed to be guarded against early rushes.  After some pages it came out the real problem was that they didn't rush ruins, and were disappointed when they went to the ruins in the first summer and found stuff was already killed and looted, and the AG was dead.  This was on pub worlds, and they were upset that they weren't given the chance to leisurely head to the ruins 7 hours or so after the server opened...

But what is different here is that ZombieDupe says they *want* to fight dfly without a wall, but can't, because everyone else uses a wall, so they must build a wall.  This is more akin to the person who asks for rollbacks to be removed because they can't help use it themselves, and feeling bad after using them b/c they want to be the cool person who doesn't use rollbacks.  But its entirely on them to rollback or not...  Its entirely on ZombieDupe to not build the wall if they want to fight it that way.  We don't even know if ZD *can* defeat dfly without a wall, b/c according to them they always use a wall regardless of this being their suggestion.

As far as Mike is concerned - I think he largely believes he's just giving a middle ground answer, and that nothing is wrong with adding optional features since everyone can just turn them off.  But the first question shouldn't be "what can we do to fix this," it should be "does this even need to be fixed."  In this case it doesn't because both options are already available on all servers.  Any player can simply not build a wall to fight dfly if they choose, or build one if they choose.  All crazy "lavae bursting through walls 100000 degrees" aside, the toggle already exists in the players hands.  Nothing needs to be changed.

[marioespinho]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

No my problem (unrelated to Zombiedupes problem of personal willpower not to do it) is that I want to be the HOST of my world and to apply different settings to my world that forces anyone who joins my world (or forces anyone who joins a Klei official server with the same settings toggled) to play by that worlds particular set of rules.

See over on Xbox we don’t have mods, so the just create your own mod answer doesn’t work for everyone- And what I want the toggles to do, goes beyond most mod capabilities-

Im pretty sure KLEI eventually plans to incorporate harder content: Rather Thats in the form of a new game mode, a new set of biomes, a New game + that requires building a portal and going to the Moon whatever it is they plan on doing…. Things are about to get harder, they changed Fishing Mechanics to be more in depth, they changed Farming Mechanics to be more in depth…

But when they start updating OLD Biomes with NEW Content (something you see a lot of players continuously asking for..) that’s when things get tricky- because how do you still let people enjoy the game the way it plays NOW without those newer updates making it Too hard on players who still struggle with the old versions of the fights and Biomes?

What I am suggesting- goes far far beyond just rather or not you can place a wall, I’m talking full fledge reworked A.I. Of the boss, new features and Mechanics- The best example I can provide:

Imagine if Dragonfly’s magma ponds were completely removed from the fight, and instead of having completely stationary ponds that you can build walls around: Firefly now Instead flies around vomiting out magma ponds in her biome randomly, and then sucking them back up (much like the Pangolden do with ponds in Hamlet)

You wouldn’t be able to just BUILD a Wall anymore because she would fly on the other side of your wall and randomly spit out a pond to have larvae flank you.

Its not just about rather or not you can build a wall- it’s about updating old biomes with new content and mechanics, But…

How do you DO THAT without also making this fight highly unenjoyable for the people who enjoy it the way it plays now?

Everything I’ve fought for, the past few pages of this thread, of my thread, or of any thread that discuss adding features that make the game any easier or harder: I’ve tried (and maybe I’ve failed miserably) at trying to come up with ways to satisfy players who WANT things to change, while at the same time, not ruining the game for the ones who never asked for the change.

In Conclusion: Since I play around with world Gen settings ALOT on a daily basis- There are OPTIONS to host your world as “Classic” or “Together” 

But what the heck does that even actually mean?! I will tell you what it SHOULD Mean: It should mean anyone who wants to play a Biome Pre-Rework can play that way, while everyone wanting to see those biomes get a 2022 overhaul can enjoy changes.

We are all playing the same game, some people want to see massive changes, where as others… don’t want change.

Everything I’ve ever posted: rather it was off-topic or not, has been to try and come up with ways for everyone’s playing preferences to Co-Exist without clashing.

I understand, and it makes some sense. But let's be honest. Even if you patched up some strats or even change the fight entirely, people would just come up with some other strat and we are back to square one. 

You don't have mods but you can make your world, name it "Mike's lactose free world", ask people not to cheese and kick/ban them if they do.

[prettynuggets]

55 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

You don't have mods but you can make your world, name it "Mike's lactose free world", ask people not to cheese and kick/ban them if they do.

this name should be a trend for people who hate cheese to their core 

[xhyom]

Lactose free world will haunt me for the rest of the week