Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[marioespinho]

I may be missing something here but, if the problem is that every world he joins has Dfly walled off, what difference would it make to have options to disable wall placing, or make larvae vault over them? If they have walls there i highly doubt they would play any different even if the options were available.

That being said, i'll cheese Dfly, i'll cheese Bee Queen, Pigs, Bunnies and even freaking butterflies if i can. And all you 1337 solo 1hp Dfly murderers can look down at me from your high horse while i stroll away with my pockets full of gems without a care in the face.

[ZombieDupe]

On 9/30/2021 at 6:12 PM, Dr. Safety said:

Slippery slope fallacy. You know that just because Klei lets walls be used to wall things off, they aren't going to make all fights to become trivial.

That wasn't my point. My point was that it appears that there are way too many vocal people who really really like being able to cheese the fight with walls that trivialise it completely. So if that fight is ok to be trivialised, why not all else? Where are all the complaints about how a fight needs to be easier to cheese for ones that at the very least require late game stuff to cheese? You have to stay consistent.

Doesn't throw aside the possibility of Klei making all future fights just exploit ridden and nothing else, but that was not the core of my argument.

On 9/30/2021 at 6:52 PM, Maxil20 said:

The way you said this indicates you do not know how difficult this glitch was to pull off in practice.

Yes, if you were the top 0.01% of skilled players and you kept in mind the cooldown of the cage while doing the entire fight, you could certainty use the edge to make the cage attack fully negated. The thing is though, this was almost never the case. You were bound to make a mistake that left you off the edge and get fully ensnared, especially if you were trying to take out the unseen hands to drop the shield.

Also, even if you negate the cage, you negate one of the five-six things that makes the fuelweaver fight incredibly difficult. You do not negate it's shield, or it's mind control, or it's minions it can use to fully heal, or it's massive -400 sanity per minute aura because you are skillful enough to dodge the cage by using the edge of the world every time it popped up. 

I don't think it's all that difficult when you are good enough at kiting, I have been able to consistently pull it off no problem when it still worked. Regardless, it's an extremely game-changing part of the fight. You are now almost required to have a lazy explorer, making the item more useful and you can have more fun during the fight telepoofing out of the cage. There is no point having a mechanic in place if that mechanic is going to be avoided anyway. If you look back at some footage of players fighting it prior to post the change, there is a significant change in the approach as a result of not using the exploit.

In fact, before the exploit was patched, I would not be able to find any footage where someone wouldn't use the exploit. You might even have the exploit happen to you on accident if you were hoping not to take advantage of it because of the small space you're confined to in the arena. But now, it's something you have to battle with, and it isn't until a few fights in that you are able to almost entirely negate it as thuribles stop nearby players from getting caged. The triumph is still there, and the subsequent fights are only weakened if there are thuribles around to use, which allows you to get more of the same loot for more players.

[Capybara007]

13 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

That wasn't my point. My point was that it appears that there are way too many vocal people who really really like being able to cheese the fight with walls that trivialise it completely. So if that fight is ok to be trivialised, why not all else? Where are all the complaints about how a fight needs to be easier to cheese for ones that at the very least require late game stuff to cheese? You have to stay consistent.

Doesn't throw aside the possibility of Klei making all future fights just exploit ridden and nothing else, but that was not the core of my argument.

All of the fights are ok to trivialize, no one should tell you how to play the game, and you still havent answered the question of

If you dont use it why do you care

Players use in a pub and you want to do it legit? Just fight dfly later, or play solo

[ZombieDupe]

51 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

All of the fights are ok to trivialize, no one should tell you how to play the game, and you still havent answered the question of

If you dont use it why do you care

Players use in a pub and you want to do it legit? Just fight dfly later, or play solo

I do use it, and it's precisely because there is no reason for me to put more effort in than walling off the area that makes it so sad and frustrating, when the fight could be so much more engaging when I am forced to use a more sophisticated and engaging tactic. I would have no choice but to make the game fun for myself. When you know an exploit exists and you can very easily use it to gain advantage even to cheat yourself, you will be compelled to do it. There is a difference between that and just starting out on easy mode however, players tend to set a challenge and then overcome that challenge by any means necessary. Arbitrary restrictions that are still mechanically possible are largely reserved only for niche speedruns. Have you never even thought of the possibility of players optimizing the fun out of games for themselves?

 

[Snugrugbug]

42 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I do use it, and it's precisely because there is no reason for me to put more effort in than walling off the area that makes it so sad and frustrating, when the fight could be so much more engaging when I am forced to use a more sophisticated and engaging tactic. I would have no choice but to make the game fun for myself. When you know an exploit exists and you can very easily use it to gain advantage even to cheat yourself, you will be compelled to do it. There is a difference between that and just starting out on easy mode however, players tend to set a challenge and then overcome that challenge by any means necessary. Arbitrary restrictions that are still mechanically possible are largely reserved only for niche speedruns. Have you never even thought of the possibility of players optimizing the fun out of games for themselves?

 

If you want to fight dragonfly without walls you can do so,

nobody is forcing you to

and if you can't resist the urge to use walls then that's your problem

[ZombieDupe]

3 minutes ago, Snugrugbug said:

If you want to fight dragonfly without walls you can do so,

nobody is forcing you to

and if you can't resist the urge to use walls then that's your problem

No, it's the game's problem for allowing and encouraging this one specific and very trivialising tactic. You are basically peer pressured to use this tactic because you can, a lot of players can, will and do use it because of this reason, not because they find any fun in it. The game should encourage you to try something more engaging so that there is point to using them.

I want to be encouraged, maybe even forced to use a more engaging tactic. Not having as simply an option that doesn't make sense to use because it's not an optimal strategy. Watch the video I linked, it is pointed out even that players will optimise the fun out of games given the opportunity. And the wall cheese strategy for dragonfly fight is a prime example of this.

[Snugrugbug]

1 minute ago, ZombieDupe said:

No, it's the game's problem for allowing and encouraging this one specific and very trivialising tactic. You are basically peer pressured to use this tactic because you can, a lot of players can. The game should encourage you to try something more engaging so that there is point to using them.

Not everyone enjoys fighting dragonfly without walls

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

No, it's the game's problem for allowing and encouraging this one specific and very trivialising tactic.

most people cheese AG with a literally free method, a lot of people use fire farms, a lot of people use portal, a lot of people use different game serve type, etc

but that doesnt mean all the players play the same way or are forced to play in that way

klei balance arround how they want the game to be played but if something emerges they dont usually care unless it hits hard their intentions. Players that dont want to use these not expected methods dont use them

[ZombieDupe]

2 minutes ago, Snugrugbug said:

Not everyone enjoys fighting dragonfly without walls

Try an alternative method. Instead of using walls to block off larva, use ice staves to freeze the larva and see whether it's more engaging or not. Then reflect on the fight and give me reasons for why you did or did not enjoy this alternative method.

[Dr. Safety]

57 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

That wasn't my point. My point was that it appears that there are way too many vocal people who really really like being able to cheese the fight with walls that trivialise it completely. So if that fight is ok to be trivialised, why not all else? Where are all the complaints about how a fight needs to be easier to cheese for ones that at the very least require late game stuff to cheese? You have to stay consistent.

Doesn't throw aside the possibility of Klei making all future fights just exploit ridden and nothing else, but that was not the core of my argument.

Because that is practically a textbook definition of slippery slope. Besides, as others have stated, walls do not "trivialize" the fight. Dfly isn't a cake walk without her larvae, and fighting her that way still takes a lot of practice. If you get that down to the point that you find Dfly easy, then by all means, don't build walls.

I am not really understanding your whole "People need to be complaining about how some fights you can't cheese. Needs consistency" argument. I guess I kind of answered it above, since your claim was built upon the idea that the fight was trivialized, when that is not really the case.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Try an alternative method. Instead of using walls to block off larva, use ice staves to freeze the larva and see whether it's more engaging or not. Then reflect on the fight and give me reasons for why you did or did not enjoy this alternative method.

kiting BQ is the most engaging method for me but that doesnt mean it will be the method used for others becuase the pros and cons each method have and the player preference

edit: what i mean is that engaging!=recommended or worth in the long run. for that the pros and cons part

my example: is fun and you dont waste materials but you waste tons of time that could be cut by tanking which in the long term will be more fun than "i need to stop doing what im doing to waste 3 in game days kiting a boss"

[1bubbainpa]

A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that gives the player a great degree of creativity to complete tasks towards a goal within the game, if such a goal exists. -Wikipedia

In other words, Klei gives you the tools, and you figure out the solution. Players are free to find methods to overcome obstacles.

Of course, some methods are better than others, such as using walls and stun strategy. People will obviously drift toward the strongest strategy to defeat dragonfly because it is a recurring raid boss that has worthwhile drops. Setting up a system to fight it repeatedly with the least amount of resistance and risk is a valid strategy and you are free to do it because Don’t Starve is a Sandbox Survival game.

The system works because Klei allows it. I don’t see them ever doing it, but if Klei removes or adjust creatures and wall so, people will naturally drift to the next easiest and risk-free way to fight dragonfly, and that will become the meta way to fight them.

Just let people play their own way. Unless the thought of people building walls around dragonfly arena playing keeps you up at night, I don’t see what the problem is.

[ZombieDupe]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

most people cheese AG with a literally free method, a lot of people use fire farms, a lot of people use portal, a lot of people use different game serve type, etc

but that doesnt mean all the players play the same way or are forced to play in that way

klei balance arround how they want the game to be played but if something emerges they dont usually care unless it hits hard their intentions. Players that dont want to use these not expected methods dont use them

The prevalence of the wall strategy boils down the fight to that strategy. Because it exists, I have no reason to fight any different way. I want to fight it in a more fun way, but I have no reason to because the wall method exists and is a quick and cheap way for me to trivialise the fight along with anyone who may be fighting the boss with me, and especially if I'm not the only one fighting it. Anyone who has only fought the boss through the wall method may not even know there are other more interesting ways to fight the boss.

Just now, Dr. Safety said:

Because that is practically a textbook definition of slippery slope. Besides, as others have stated, walls do not "trivialize" the fight. Dfly isn't a cake walk without her larvae, and fighting her that way still takes a lot of practice. If you get that down to the point that you find Dfly easy, then by all means, don't build walls.

I am not really understanding your whole "People need to be complaining about how some fights you can't cheese. Needs consistency" argument. I guess I kind of answered it above, since your claim was built upon the idea that the fight was trivialized, when that is not really the case.

I don't care much for supposed fallacies, only the reasoning of myself and of other people making points. Arguing whether what I've said is a "slippery slope" or something along the lines when even that in and of itself could be disputed is pointless.

The idea was that if people are so adamant as to demand this specific method to be allowed to continue in the game and the reason for this being that it allows the fight to be made easier, then why not complain about other fights not giving you such trivialised options? Where are threads asking for more easier methods to cheese bosses if that's how you want your dragonfly fight to be?

And I disagree. I do think that walls trivialise the fight. You don't have to deal with larva because of this period, and it's something you can do with just a few walls that you get early on. Through other methods (which you won't employ because that's extra unnecessary effort, even if the fight ends up more engaging as a result) they are something you have to account for in other more engaging ways.

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

kiting BQ is the most engaging method for me but that doesnt mean it will be the method used for others becuase the pros and cons each method have and the player preference

edit: what i mean is that engaging!=recommended or worth in the long run. for that the pros and cons part

my example: is fun and you dont waste materials but you waste tons of time that could be cut by tanking which in the long term will be more fun than "i need to stop doing what im doing to waste 3 in game days kiting a boss"

You can't trivialise the bee queen to the extent that you can dragonfly. A couple dozen walls won't stop grumblebees because they will either quickly path-find around them or just straight up fly over them. Larva will just stay behind walls until they die. That's why more legitimate tactics are employed and any exploit tactics require much more preparation for other bosses.

8 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

A sandbox game is a video game with a gameplay element that gives the player a great degree of creativity to complete tasks towards a goal within the game, if such a goal exists. -Wikipedia

In other words, Klei gives you the tools, and you figure out the solution. Players are free to find methods to overcome obstacles.

Of course, some methods are better than others, such as using walls and stun strategy. People will obviously drift toward the strongest strategy to defeat dragonfly because it is a recurring raid boss that has worthwhile drops. Setting up a system to fight it repeatedly with the least amount of resistance and risk is a valid strategy and you are free to do it because Don’t Starve is a Sandbox Survival game.

The system works because Klei allows it. I don’t see them ever doing it, but if Klei removes or adjust creatures and wall so, people will naturally drift to the next easiest and risk-free way to fight dragonfly, and that will become the meta way to fight them.

Just let people play their own way. Unless the thought of people building walls around dragonfly arena playing keeps you up at night, I don’t see what the problem is.

* The "this is a sandbox game" argument is terrible in my eyes because it throws out of the window any progression method, which this game clearly has and makes the player engage more with multiple items of varying utility rather than just having everything that's the best given to you right from the start. Otherwise, why not just give everything the best to the player right from the start?

* Making adjustments to make the wall method not work would breed way to more engaging and diverse methods of combat, look at bee queen, a single strategy is rarely employed, it entirely depends on what you have, not the case with walls and dragonfly.

* Yeah, then how about not give much reason for a player to repeat the fight? fight it once or twice to get the drops you want, and you're done.

I really do not want to get more in depth than this about this topic.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

You can't trivialise the bee queen to the extent that you can dragonfly.

ice flingo matics, boats, actually walls in a specific placements and other kind of wall methods less effectives

 

i have already share my opinion, i dont think i have anything else to add

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Because it exists, I have no reason to fight any different way

1) Absolute BS

Every single boss in the game has massive cheese potential, far more than dfly.  For instance

Quote

You can't trivialise the bee queen to the extent that you can dragonfly.

Yes you can.  You can actually make the bqueen fight a near zero damage fight with just some walls...  Less than you need for dfly...  So...  gl with that.
(also you can set up an oven, although it requires more than walls it makes it a literal 0 damage fight, you don't even need a weapon.)

Quote

* The "this is a sandbox game" argument is terrible in my eyes because it throws out of the window any progression method, which this game clearly has and makes the player engage more with multiple items of varying utility rather than just having everything that's the best given to you right from the start. Otherwise, why not just give everything the best to the player right from the start?

Sure, you don't like the argument - but that's what sandbox games are.  Just because you have a different opinion of what you want in a game doesn't change what the game is for everyone else.  You can however change how you play.  See point 1) Absolute BS.

[ZombieDupe]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

You can actually make the bqueen fight a near zero damage fight with some walls...  So...  gl with that.

How?

And the fact that the method exists and is easy to setup and use does actually make me not want to use any other method, even though I know it would be more fun.

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Sure, you don't like the argument - but that's what sandbox games are.  Just because you have a different opinion of what you want in a game doesn't change what the game is for everyone else.  You can however change how you play.  See point 1) Absolute BS.

In this case, I can, but I have no reason to and I think the game would be better if it did force me to use a more challenging way to approach the fight. That is not always the case however. Not every strategy works. But if it's a sandbox game, why shouldn't any strategy work? Balance doesn't matter if it's just a sandbox game, right? Shouldn't the entire game be completely trivialised then?

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

ice flingo matics, boats, actually walls in a specific placements and other kind of wall methods less effectives

 

i have already share my opinion, i dont think i have anything else to add

I said to the extent which means that a fight can't be accomplished to that trivial degree. Boats would be in about the same ballpark, but from my experience it's only useful as confinement of the fight when playing as Wendy. You can still achieve the same result in longer time without a boat, Abigail targets the grumblebees regardless. And ice flingomatics are specifically much tougher to set up, because of all the resources you need and at times can't get. It is still an exploit, but it's not as easy to set up as walls for dragonfly that trivialise the fight to the degree it does. Shosuko mentions that you can do it somehow with bee queen as well however, and I'm curious as to how that's done if it is possible.

[1bubbainpa]

2 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

In this case, I can, but I have no reason to and I think the game would be better if it did force me to use a more challenging way to approach the fight. That is not always the case however. Not every strategy works. But if it's a sandbox game, why shouldn't any strategy work? Balance doesn't matter if it's just a sandbox game, right? Shouldn't the entire game be completely trivialised then?

It is a sandbox because you can choose to either do it with the path of least resistance OR you can create your own method. If the end result causes you to defeat bee queen, then Klei doesn’t have a problem with it.

[Yuuko]

Just now, ZombieDupe said:

I think the game would be better if it did force me to use a more challenging way to approach the fight.

Then what you need to work on is will power.  If you think the game would be better doing something differently, then do it differently.  That's a *you* problem, not a game problem.

Here - take the blue pill and believe you know what you're talking about, or take the red pill and learn what DST is really about...

Spoiler

 

Nothing in the game will change.  Only what you know about it.

[ZombieDupe]

12 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

It is a sandbox because you can choose to either do it with the path of least resistance OR you can create your own method. If the end result causes you to defeat bee queen, then Klei doesn’t have a problem with it.

My problem is that I feel no need to use any alternative method when this method is as easy to set up and use. There is no practical reason to use any other method, so most times you won't use any other and to me that is a problem.

8 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Then what you need to work on is will power.  If you think the game would be better doing something differently, then do it differently.  That's a *you* problem, not a game problem.

Here - take the blue pill and believe you know what you're talking about, or take the red pill and learn what DST is really about...

  Hide contents

 

Nothing in the game will change.  Only what you know about it.

Both of these methods are a first for me. The first one comes close, but not exactly. You expend more healing and more/better armor is required, this is in part to the impossible nature to kite bee queen with this strategy, kiting bee queen is more difficult regardless of the strategy employed because of the honey slowdown. The difference is though that grumble bees still can get you and do so until their AI butts heads. I've seen bees do this, but never grumble bees, to me it's a pathfinding bug that if fixed would probably make this tactic impossible. The second one uses an ice flingomatic and whatever else rare so that still requires setup of rarer items and is not on the same level of ease of use.

There is no "working on willpower". How a game is designed is how players will often respond to the environment around them (not always, not every player, but you can get a general trend going). I could think of ways to want to fight a boss that are impossible because of the current mechanics, willpower in relation to existing game mechanics isn't going to solve that either. How you design the game is reflective of how a player will typically respond and I see the walling off the dragonfly arena more than I see these other exploits being used on any other raid boss at that level. Give me a reason to use a more engaging method and I will use it, and right now the wall exploit is what's standing in the way of that.

[Mike23Ua]

I would appreciate it if people would stop calling anything Cheese or an Exploit, because Until Klei patches that out: It’s pretty safe to say they INTENDED that fight to play that way.

Which is NOT the same as what I’ve been saying the past 15 pages (exaggeration obviously..) of this thread: If Harder or a different Versions of this fight were made available: People can Have it where walls work, and then also (for those who want it or will use it..) Have it where Walls won’t work at all.

And YES even in your dumb PUBS (that Xbox Doesn’t Have) Some Servers can have it the old way where walls can be used, other servers can have it the NEW way where walls aren’t as useful anymore.

But if your just going to default towards doing it one way because that works & you can’t help yourself: Then you will be one of those people who never go to one of the servers available where it no longer works and any and all extra effort Klei put into changing it- Will have been a complete waste for anyone who doesn’t actually care to try the new version.

[Captain_Rage]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:30 AM, Dr. Safety said:

It was one thing when you could get bee queen on a boat and sink it, killing her instantly. It's another to strategically plan ahead for a fight with Dfly and put obstacles in the way of the larvae to make the fight less challenging. I honestly wouldn't consider it cheesing the fight. Microwaving bee queen by abusing fire properties is a cheese. Hiding behind a pillar and abusing AG's pathfinding and collisions is a cheese. Playing Wanda and hiding behind the Loot Stash abusing pathfinding and range is a cheese. Using walls for their intended purpose to separate you and larvae is not a cheese because you are still participating in a fight with Dfly. Even with the walls the fight can still go pear-shaped if you don't prepare.

I see using walls in the same vein as using cobblestone roads + walking cane in the later stages of the Bee Queen fight. You use the speed to lead the grumble bees away from the queen, taking them out of the fight for a bit so you can lay into BQ. It's only temporary but I think the same ideas are applied.

Maybe I am confusing "cheesing" and exploiting, but if so that's the case then I see no problems with cheesing.

"Cheese" = a strategy devoid of creativity or originality (the player using it has surely copied it from elsewhere) revolving around no technical skill that is still viable*. Compare it to a "4 pool rush" in Starcraft back in the days for example, which could probably net you a +90% win rate against new players even if you weren't a good player yourself.

 

* at least that is my definition.

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

My problem is that I feel no need to use any alternative method when this method is as easy to set up and use. There is no practical reason to use any other method, so most times you won't use any other and to me that is a problem.

Both of these methods are a first for me. The first one comes close, but not exactly. You expend more healing and more/better armor is required, this is in part to the impossible nature to kite bee queen with this strategy, kiting bee queen is more difficult regardless of the strategy employed because of the honey slowdown. The difference is though that grumble bees still can get you and do so until their AI butts heads. I've seen bees do this, but never grumble bees, to me it's a pathfinding bug that if fixed would probably make this tactic impossible. The second one uses an ice flingomatic and whatever else rare so that still requires setup of rarer items and is not on the same level of ease of use.

There is no "working on willpower". How a game is designed is how players will often respond to the environment around them (not always, not every player, but you can get a general trend going). I could think of ways to want to fight a boss that are impossible because of the current mechanics, willpower in relation to existing game mechanics isn't going to solve that either. How you design the game is reflective of how a player will typically respond and I see the walling off the dragonfly arena more than I see these other exploits being used on any other raid boss at that level. Give me a reason to use a more engaging method and I will use it, and right now the wall exploit is what's standing in the way of that.

so pick wanda lol  If you're such a hardcore "do whatever everyone tells you do" player you're probably hard stuck on Wolfgang anyway lol

Spoiler

 

There is always working on willpower.  Thank god I'm not your employer, sounds like you'd be a horrible investment.

If you only want to do things the easiest way, then there will always be cheese.  This is the nature of the game, and none of your changes you've suggested even come CLOSE to removing it.  You don't understand nearly enough about how sandbox games, and DST are developed to even start on that mission...

If you *want* to fight it differently, do it differently.  You can, if you don't want to that is a *you* problem 100%.

[Zeklo]

2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

 

Wow, this video actually covers a lot of my feelings on recent DST.
I talk about Health Walls being one of my huge dislikes about the raid bosses, but this made me realize something else.

There's basically no risk, because there's no benefit to risk.

Permadeath as a whole dissuades risk, but optional content even more so. You choose when (or if) you want to fight Raid Bosses [for example]. As a result, there is no reason to not go in with the utmost preparation. Sure you can gimp yourself to make it harder, but that's arbitrary difficulty. It's not like Deerclops where you're on a timer, and are forced to go in with whatever you've scrounged (for that first year). In this case, there's no benefit to actually fighting the lavae. Killing them doesn't pull the fight in your favor or grant some extra drop or anything. It's a level of risk that can be avoided entirely by these methods. So unless you're trying to be a 'purist' or do a challenge run or something then there's no reason.

I think that's why my interest in DST has dropped so much. It's lost it's thrill. Everything is so clockwork.

[Snugrugbug]

2 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Wow, this video actually covers a lot of my feelings on recent DST.
I talk about Health Walls being one of my huge dislikes about the raid bosses, but this made me realize something else.

There's basically no risk, because there's no benefit to risk.

Permadeath as a whole dissuades risk, but optional content even more so. You choose when (or if) you want to fight Raid Bosses [for example]. As a result, there is no reason to not go in with the utmost preparation. Sure you can gimp yourself to make it harder, but that's arbitrary difficulty. It's not like Deerclops where you're on a timer, and are forced to go in with whatever you've scrounged (for that first year). In this case, there's no benefit to actually fighting the lavae. Killing them doesn't pull the fight in your favor or grant some extra drop or anything. It's a level of risk that can be avoided entirely by these methods. So unless you're trying to be a 'purist' or do a challenge run or something then there's no reason.

I think that's why my interest in DST has dropped so much. It's lost it's thrill. Everything is so clockwork.

You can just run away from deerclops

[ZombieDupe]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

I would appreciate it if people would stop calling anything Cheese or an Exploit, because Until Klei patches that out: It’s pretty safe to say they INTENDED that fight to play that way.

Just now, Captain_Rage said:

"Cheese" = a strategy devoid of creativity or originality (the player using it has surely copied it from elsewhere) revolving around no technical skill that is still viable*. Compare it to a "4 pool rush" in Starcraft back in the days for example, which could probably net you a +90% win rate against new players even if you weren't a good player yourself.

 

* at least that is my definition.

I inherently disagree with these definitions. Just because a developer is aware of them, maybe even how they work and may let the slide for an undefined amount of time, intentional or not doesn't make them not exploitative. Klei patches some things, others they don't so I don't take their word or supposed intentions for my definitions, because as a developer a game can be whatever you want. I think it's more about the potential dynamic of a mechanic and the vision you have had if there was any for something to work that really draws the line for me, and anything that destroys that dynamic can be deemed as an exploit or "cheese". Alternatives are good so long as they don't completely break something through triviality.