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Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?


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You know you could do the fight in more ways than one, right?

You can do a single wall line with the sign if you don't want to deal with the larvae OR you could walk past the wall and deal with the larvae if you really wanted to.

I like using the Ice Staves for the first fight cause the fight goes by a bit faster since Dfly's AI sometimes keeps spitting out larvae to no end, but late game, walls are great!

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I'm in favor of cheese strategies continuing to exist, and I'm glad Klei doesn't see them as things to patch out as soon as they're discovered. I see them as good game design. Certainly better than artificial settings like HP scaling or dynamic difficulty.

DST supports solo players (it's based off of a single player game, after all), but raid bosses are not designed to be beaten by solo players. They can be, but tackling dragonfly or bee queen is a daunting task for someone like me who can't walk past a bunnymen hutch without spontaneously dying.

So, Klei allows us to remove specific elements of the fight by preparing the arena and bringing along pieces of equipment. Don't like larvae? Walls. Don't like enraged mode? Pan flute. Players get to customize the fight they want to have, and nobody feels shamed for playing on easy mode or not having friends.

Of course, optimally the fight would still present some challenge, even at maximum cheese levels. Nobody likes an anti-climax. But I still hold to what I said: cheese strats are good (albeit often accidental) game design.

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12 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

Certainly better than artificial settings like HP scaling or dynamic difficulty.

I spend 99% of my playtime solo and honestly I would rather have scaling health for raid bosses than not. High HP pools don't add difficulty, it just adds tedium when you have less than 6 people all whacking misery toadstool with dark swords. If I can make fights less of a grindy slog I absolutely will, whether that be "cheese" or health scaling mods.

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15 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

I spend 99% of my playtime solo and honestly I would rather have scaling health for raid bosses than not. High HP pools don't add difficulty, it just adds tedium when you have less than 6 people all whacking misery toadstool with dark swords. If I can make fights less of a grindy slog I absolutely will, whether that be "cheese" or health scaling mods.

I think that is where people fail to understand: These Boss fights are content that’s in the game that Klei designed and some of these fights have unique gameplay to them that can’t be found anywhere else in the game.. but the problem? These fights are designed with the intention you will bring a few friends along to Hambat/dark sword it to death with relatively great ease.

When playing Without those friends though- it just becomes this unnecessarily grindy process for the SAME results you would’ve gotten had you just gathered pals to smash attack till it’s dead.

Its not fun, not even in the slightest bit is it fun… and there’s no difference between fighting D-Fly Solo or with a party of 12..

Its health and damage and more importantly ABILITIES and What it can do: Do not scale based on how many players are engaged in the battle…

And that’s something it SHOULD do, both in getting Easier with less players AND Harder when you bring a whole crew to fight.

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42 minutes ago, Monkey Cups said:

I spend 99% of my playtime solo and honestly I would rather have scaling health for raid bosses than not. High HP pools don't add difficulty, it just adds tedium when you have less than 6 people all whacking misery toadstool with dark swords. If I can make fights less of a grindy slog I absolutely will, whether that be "cheese" or health scaling mods.

This, this, this and more of this.

 

1 hour ago, QuQuasar said:

I'm in favor of cheese strategies continuing to exist, and I'm glad Klei doesn't see them as things to patch out as soon as they're discovered. I see them as good game design. Certainly better than artificial settings like HP scaling or dynamic difficulty.

DST supports solo players (it's based off of a single player game, after all), but raid bosses are not designed to be beaten by solo players. They can be, but tackling dragonfly or bee queen is a daunting task for someone like me who can't walk past a bunnymen hutch without spontaneously dying.

So, Klei allows us to remove specific elements of the fight by preparing the arena and bringing along pieces of equipment. Don't like larvae? Walls. Don't like enraged mode? Pan flute. Players get to customize the fight they want to have, and nobody feels shamed for playing on easy mode or not having friends.

Of course, optimally the fight would still present some challenge, even at maximum cheese levels. Nobody likes an anti-climax. But I still hold to what I said: cheese strats are good (albeit often accidental) game design.

DST From the start was never supported for the solo experience. It was a really bad period for klei and don't starve....

In any case, aside defining if walls are really a cheese or exploit method ( it's not ), asking for a better boss fight experience for both solo and together experience, considering all playstyle, methods and tools is not bad. We should never considered it. Better and more cool boss fights are always welcome! :wilson_vforvictory:

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1 hour ago, Monkey Cups said:

I spend 99% of my playtime solo and honestly I would rather have scaling health for raid bosses than not. High HP pools don't add difficulty, it just adds tedium when you have less than 6 people all whacking misery toadstool with dark swords. If I can make fights less of a grindy slog I absolutely will, whether that be "cheese" or health scaling mods.

idk - I find the cheese is fun.  For instance - you can pen a pack of Depths Worms near Toadstool, push him out with ice / fossil / lureplants, and just chop trees while the Depths Worms dps him down.  That's fun because you've got to pen the Depths Worms, which is an adventure of its own.  Then get Toad pushed out, which isn't too difficult but is not super easy either.  Then aggro the Depths Worms onto toad instead of you.  Once its going you nervously walk around the worms while chopping sporecaps until he dies => THEN  you get to wrangle the Depths Worms back into their pen for next time XD

Just like doing bees for Crab King.  You've got the adventure of capturing all of the bees first, and then the clean up after as angry bees become the primary occupants of the seas XD

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6 hours ago, QuartzBeam said:

If fighting the Dragonfly and the Lavae head on was as fun as you think it is, people wouldn't be walling the Lavae away.

Not only that but most raid bosses are massive resource sinks when solo'ing them, which makes fighting them even more tedious when you combine that with the abilities they have that's meant to deal with multiple players at once.

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

you can pen a pack of Depths Worms near Toadstool, push him out with ice / fossil / lureplants, and just chop trees while the Depths Worms dps him down.  That's fun because you've got to pen the Depths Worms, which is an adventure of its own.  Then get Toad pushed out, which isn't too difficult but is not super easy either.  Then aggro the Depths Worms onto toad instead of you.  Once its going you nervously walk around the worms while chopping sporecaps until he dies => THEN  you get to wrangle the Depths Worms back into their pen for next time XD

My puny mind cannot pull together the imagination necessary to think what that might look like. Do you have a link to a video by chance?

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38 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

My puny mind cannot pull together the imagination necessary to think what that might look like. Do you have a link to a video by chance?

What he said made me remember this. Only for the depth worms pen part. And replace slurtles with Toadstool.

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It was one thing when you could get bee queen on a boat and sink it, killing her instantly. It's another to strategically plan ahead for a fight with Dfly and put obstacles in the way of the larvae to make the fight less challenging. I honestly wouldn't consider it cheesing the fight. Microwaving bee queen by abusing fire properties is a cheese. Hiding behind a pillar and abusing AG's pathfinding and collisions is a cheese. Playing Wanda and hiding behind the Loot Stash abusing pathfinding and range is a cheese. Using walls for their intended purpose to separate you and larvae is not a cheese because you are still participating in a fight with Dfly. Even with the walls the fight can still go pear-shaped if you don't prepare.

I see using walls in the same vein as using cobblestone roads + walking cane in the later stages of the Bee Queen fight. You use the speed to lead the grumble bees away from the queen, taking them out of the fight for a bit so you can lay into BQ. It's only temporary but I think the same ideas are applied.

Maybe I am confusing "cheesing" and exploiting, but if so that's the case then I see no problems with cheesing.

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Making it so that walls can't block lavae off would require fixing the issue where NPCs erroneously believe they can path through things like signs, and that would break a lot of farm designs. Think it would be a bad idea just for that alone.

16 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

Maybe I am confusing "cheesing" and exploiting, but if so that's the case then I see no problems with cheesing.

Walling off the lavae is an exploit if you do so using the magma ponds and/or signs. You're exploiting the AI bug where they don't understand that they can't walk through those objects.

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4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Making it so that walls can't block lavae off would require fixing the issue where NPCs erroneously believe they can path through things like signs, and that would break a lot of farm designs. Think it would be a bad idea just for that alone.

Walling off the lavae is an exploit if you do so using the magma ponds and/or signs. You're exploiting the AI bug where they don't understand that they can't walk through those objects.

The things are literally made of lava… why don’t they just splash into the wall and seep through its cracks re-Emerging on the other side?

In fact: this still lets the “Wall them off” strategy slow them down significantly… and allows you to visually see them seeping through the walls like a wall of lava reassembling themselves on the other side of it, but it would no longer be a tactic players can use that completely take them out the fight altogether- which is what people are doing with the Wall Method.

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52 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Walling off the lavae is an exploit if you do so using the magma ponds and/or signs. You're exploiting the AI bug where they don't understand that they can't walk through those objects.

I agree. I should have prefaced that I'm referring to surrounding the pools with walls. I should also mention that I don't mind the exploits, I just don't think that the walls qualify for so much scrutiny, as that's literally the purpose of the walls (once again, referring to the not-AI abusing method)

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Is it an exploit though? I vaguely remember there being an update where they could destroy walls and then it was patched out? Even if Im wrong I think that if they considered this a bad thing they would of made it that way at some point. 

I think this is klei giving solo players some slack. 

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8 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Ah yes another one of those "I want to force everyone to play how i want them to" threads.

The problem is: currently people are forcing everyone to play how they want by building those walls. I was never on a server where someone didn't build those walls, I have never fought against the Dragonfly without those walls. They could just remove lavae as they don't have any purpose.

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4 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

I was never on a server where someone didn't build those walls

 

38 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

To me this sounds more of a break down in communication. However if people don't want to do your method even if you ask them just find a group that will. You're game experience can improve greatly if you find like minded individuals.

 

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1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Is it an exploit though? I vaguely remember there being an update where they could destroy walls and then it was patched out? Even if Im wrong I think that if they considered this a bad thing they would of made it that way at some point. 

I think this is klei giving solo players some slack. 

Technically abusing pathfinding could be considered exploiting, but at the end of of day, who cares? I think Klei even embraced this idea by making sculptures indestructible and not something mobs will pathfind around.

I guess my point I was trying to make was that walls are not some bug that make the fight trivial, and they aren't doing anything game breaking.

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2 minutes ago, kiwikenobi said:
41 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

To me this sounds more of a break down in communication. However if people don't want to do your method even if you ask them just find a group that will. You're game experience can improve greatly if you find like minded individuals.

So people want to force me to find a group that is playing exactly how I want? Sorry, but I love the team randomness on dedicated servers. I just think this wall tactic is bad (or the lavae are, cause people are taking them out of the game). I mean, it's really silly (or sad) that people feel forced to put that much work in gathering stone and building this wall against something, that should be part of the fun.

 

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18 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

The problem is: currently people are forcing everyone to play how they want by building those walls. I was never on a server where someone didn't build those walls, I have never fought against the Dragonfly without those walls. They could just remove lavae as they don't have any purpose.

I feel this a lot.

Most of the strategies, exploits, whatever you wanna call them make the Lavae have no real influence on the fight, and would have very little impact if they were removed entirely. This is partially due to the walls sure, but also due to the Lavae being... I don't want to say poorly thought out, but they are quite literally tacked on.

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3 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

 

 

I'm not forcing you to do anything.

Also, this isn't the only boss where you can over prepare to make a boss easier. Its not even a specific thing that can only be done in this game. 

Saying that its "sad" is a bit condescending. Not sure how others' approach to a specific encounter affects you?

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41 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

The problem is: currently people are forcing everyone to play how they want by building those walls. I was never on a server where someone didn't build those walls, I have never fought against the Dragonfly without those walls. They could just remove lavae as they don't have any purpose.

It's a public server you can make you own if you don't agree how people play. Or break the walls and fight it like normal. No one is forcing you anything. It's just aftermath of someone doing Dfly with wall method.

HOWEVER: Making every single player even those who play solo only be able to do one specific tactic that you happen to agree with and not the one they prefered is FORCING everyone to play how you want them to.

On side note: Frankly i see Catapults around Bee Queen's nest more often than Walls around Dragonfly ponds on pubs.

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21 minutes ago, Queron81 said:

The problem is: currently people are forcing everyone to play how they want by building those walls. I was never on a server where someone didn't build those walls, I have never fought against the Dragonfly without those walls. They could just remove lavae as they don't have any purpose.

Yeah which goes back to my point I said several hours ago, if I’m the host of the world.. why do I NOT have the option to have the floor that Dragonfly’s fight takes place on be like it is now where players can place structures upon it, OR be like the Jungle Biome in the Hamlet DLC that prevents the player from placing structures anywhere in the area?

(a redesigned Firefly biome where the ground is scorching molted pools of hardened lava where anything placed in the area goes up in immediate flames would be Cool but just porting over Hamlet Jungle turf world work if a cool Firefly 2022 redesign can’t make the cut.)

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