Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[ZombieDupe]

There is a fun battle to be had with ice staves or even just regularly with other players when you don't use walls. Walls just take the chaos out of the equation and it's not all that hard to set them up for fighting Dragonfly. I don't see anyone fighting dragonfly any other way unless it's for a specific speedrun and it's also sad because you can get rocks freezing the larva, doesn't help that the blue gems just keep piling up. I can't fight the dragonfly without an exploit if everyone else in the party is aiming to use it because they can and it's easy.

While we're on the topic of staves, why not increase their durability, and ice staff especially? Making something freeze on one hit regardless of what creature it is (unless it's marked as immune) sounds fair when you consider that unfreezing something requires one hit as well.

It could take a little effort but making the Dragonfly's larva able to jump over walls would make them less useful, at least for short walls. Otherwise, they could attack them, if that overrides some of the pathfinding algorithm under certain conditions. I think this is a larger discussion about mob AI really which should be revisited though because walls are never used for real defence unless you limit yourself and surround everything in a circle with nothing but walls and maybe a fence or two around you. What fun is it when the walls mean nothing because all creatures path-find around them with a single opening they would logically have no way of knowing about? The AI is too good that it ends up bad is what I'm saying 

[Mike23Ua]

How to prevent wall cheese with Dragonfly? Easy, Klei updates the game so larvae jump at the walls and explode the wall.. or leap over the wall altogether.

I highly doubt they will do this though, because they like letting their bosses be easily exploited, until enough players complain about it and we have the

“To Be Determined” status of Ancient Guardians fight.

[zenburu]

Why you want to stop the cheese/easier methods when you can choose how to fight it? Dragonfly can be solo'd without walls, ice staves and even without a panflute. These methods allows people who can't spend time practicing a fight (or don't want to) to be able to enjoy killing a boss and its loot
 

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, zenburu said:

Why you want to stop the cheese/easier methods when you can choose how to fight it? Dragonfly can be solo'd without walls, ice staves and even without a panflute. These methods allows people who can't spend time practicing a fight (or don't want to) to be able to enjoy killing a boss and its loot
 

Probably for all the very same reasons that Klei plans to change the Ancient Guardian fight? You guys don’t seriously think they will update JUST the AG and not give every other boss a look-over do you? 

[zenburu]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Probably for all the very same reasons that Klei plans to change the Ancient Guardian fight? You guys don’t seriously think they will update JUST the AG and not give every other boss a look-over do you? 

With the AG and Crab King is different, because the alternative to a cheese method is a tedious fight, that's why a lot of people wants them to be reworked.

[Well-met]

its pretty simple. you just make the pools non-solid to lavaes

[ALCRD]

Ah yes another one of those "I want to force everyone to play how i want them to" threads.

 

[Grim the]

50 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

I can't fight the dragonfly without an exploit if everyone else in the party is aiming to use it because they can and it's easy.

In other words, your party won’t agree with you on how to do DF, so you want the game to be changed for every other player to fit your desires? You can choose how you want to fight it, and most choose to use walls. It’s up to them, and even if your teammates have built a wall  between two pools to cheese DF, you can go solo it on the other side of the wall.

There’s a lot of solutions, and changing the game for everyone isn’t the best one. It’s a sandbox game. Let people cheese if they want to.

[QuartzBeam]

If fighting the Dragonfly and the Lavae head on was as fun as you think it is, people wouldn't be walling the Lavae away.

[Terra B Welch]

Even with the wall the dfly fight still requires some level of skill to it, you still have to know the kiting timing on her swipes and without a pan flute can still end pretty chaotically.

Honestly I'm getting tired of all these complaints or demands to nerf fun boss fighting methods.

[BezKa]

I've fought DF without cheese with my two friends once, and it was pretty fun. But the moment we needed to farm her for scales I got Willow to set up walls. 

I just don't think that now that we're not afraid of her anymore and simply need materials from her we should risk getting offed by her little fire babies and drag out the fight. 

The chests aren't going to build themselves.

[Baark0]

zombie dupe returns with another controversial take

[prettynuggets]

i have fun too using cheese why bother removing it if its enjoyable to other people 

[Nettalie]

But cheese is the best part of any dish

[Mike23Ua]

Since Klei has made it pretty clear they are planning to rework ancient guardian it is safe to say that Dragonfly isn’t exempt from this same overhaul process.

people who actually want to learn the new methods after it’s reworked will learn them, and people who don’t will complain &/or quit the game.

Klei obviously can’t please everyone- But what Klei CAN do is give ME server options for when I am the host of a world and thus it is MY WORLD MINE ALL MINE, they can give me more options that FORCE other players to play the game in exactly the way I want them to.

I can provide a million and one off topic examples of this: such as making it so I can disable the crafting of birdcage, or making it so that I can “lock” certain character choices from being selectable- so there’s no more “Pick Wes = Ban Servers”  Or being able to disable Caves or the Surface completely so the entire game is played in a surface or Cave only shard.

Or In THIS case, making it so I can choose rather or not walls can be built in dragonfly’s boss biome.

Everyone plays by MY RULES in MY WORLD or they find a different server to go play in.

Its not that complicated really.

[Nettalie]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Since Klei has made it pretty clear they are planning to rework ancient guardian it is safe to say that Dragonfly isn’t exempt from this same overhaul process.

people who actually want to learn the new methods after it’s reworked will learn them, and people who don’t will complain &/or quit the game.

Klei obviously can’t please everyone- But what Klei CAN do is give ME server options for when I am the host of a world and thus it is MY WORLD MINE ALL MINE, they can give me more options that FORCE other players to play the game in exactly the way I want them to.

I can provide a million and one off topic examples of this: such as making it so I can disable the crafting of birdcage, or making it so that I can “lock” certain character choices from being selectable- so there’s no more “Pick Wes = Ban Servers”  Or being able to disable Caves or the Surface completely so the entire game is played in a surface or Cave only shard.

Or In THIS case, making it so I can choose rather or not walls can be built in dragonfly’s boss biome.

Everyone plays by MY RULES in MY WORLD or they find a different server to go play in.

Its not that complicated really.

See, this is absolutely fine.
If you wanna enable settings on your server that many would not like to play with well... that's kind of the point behind these settings right?

It's only really a problem if most of the playerbase wouldn't like a change at all, yet it's forced upon everyone by default.

[Maxposting]

17 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Since Klei has made it pretty clear they are planning to rework ancient guardian it is safe to say that Dragonfly isn’t exempt from this same overhaul process.

people who actually want to learn the new methods after it’s reworked will learn them, and people who don’t will complain &/or quit the game.

Klei obviously can’t please everyone- But what Klei CAN do is give ME server options for when I am the host of a world and thus it is MY WORLD MINE ALL MINE, they can give me more options that FORCE other players to play the game in exactly the way I want them to.

I can provide a million and one off topic examples of this: such as making it so I can disable the crafting of birdcage, or making it so that I can “lock” certain character choices from being selectable- so there’s no more “Pick Wes = Ban Servers”  Or being able to disable Caves or the Surface completely so the entire game is played in a surface or Cave only shard.

Or In THIS case, making it so I can choose rather or not walls can be built in dragonfly’s boss biome.

Everyone plays by MY RULES in MY WORLD or they find a different server to go play in.

Its not that complicated really.

[Erineyes7]

It's not even Cheese this time, It's using the game's mechanics against it. Which is, in fact, good game design.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

There is a fun battle to be had with ice staves or even just regularly with other players when you don't use walls. Walls just take the chaos out of the equation and it's not all that hard to set them up for fighting Dragonfly. I don't see anyone fighting dragonfly any other way unless it's for a specific speedrun and it's also sad because you can get rocks freezing the larva, doesn't help that the blue gems just keep piling up. I can't fight the dragonfly without an exploit if everyone else in the party is aiming to use it because they can and it's easy.

While we're on the topic of staves, why not increase their durability, and ice staff especially? Making something freeze on one hit regardless of what creature it is (unless it's marked as immune) sounds fair when you consider that unfreezing something requires one hit as well.

It could take a little effort but making the Dragonfly's larva able to jump over walls would make them less useful, at least for short walls. Otherwise, they could attack them, if that overrides some of the pathfinding algorithm under certain conditions. I think this is a larger discussion about mob AI really which should be revisited though because walls are never used for real defence unless you limit yourself and surround everything in a circle with nothing but walls and maybe a fence or two around you. What fun is it when the walls mean nothing because all creatures path-find around them with a single opening they would logically have no way of knowing about? The AI is too good that it ends up bad is what I'm saying 

Its funny you talk about how walls are both exploited, yet unused for defense in the same post.  Walls do what walls do.  For some mobs they are an obstruction and the mob paths around them.  Other will attack the walls.  Some ignore them either walking through, or flying over them.  These behaviors are all present in the AI - if any mob was intended to act differently, it would...  So perhaps Klei intends that lavae DON'T jump over or attack walls so that one of the strategies for Dfly IS to wall off the pools.  Perhaps the wall "exploit" is actually intended O_O  I mean, they did add walls to the game, and designed how mobs interacted with them...

Its great how Klei has given us choice in our game play.  If people want they can fight Dfly without a pan flute, walls, or ice staff.  Its pretty impressive to watch too!  You don't even have to pick Wolfgang, or use Warly buff foods.  You could pick Wes and fight Dfly if you wanted.  Its all about choice.  For many people the choice is about reducing tedium and risk via some walls and a pan flute.  Some people pick Wolfgang b/c 2x damage and good tanking stats helps make bosses easier in a different way.  You can even combine them.  You do you buddy.

Just don't be that troll that starts hammering down walls mid fight.  There was one person who talked about hammering fire pits when people faught deerclops so they couldn't tank through his freeze "b/c its cHeEz."  What a D move.  Just don't be like that.  You're playing in a group, talk about how you want to approach the fight.  If you want to do a certain strategy, especially if its more risky and less conventional, maybe find a group that is willing and set up a time to do it...  Don't try to force your ways on the group as if they're all "playing wrong" just b/c they do things differently than you.

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

its pretty simple. you just make the pools non-solid to lavaes

Then you just wall around every lava pool, or use fossils, statues, or signs to block their pathing...

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Since Klei has made it pretty clear they are planning to rework ancient guardian it is safe to say that Dragonfly isn’t exempt from this same overhaul process.

people who actually want to learn the new methods after it’s reworked will learn them, and people who don’t will complain &/or quit the game.

Reworking AG holds no promise that they will remove pillar cheese, or any other cheese.  The way Klei designs DST to always be more open ended almost guarantees there will be both l33tSkiLLz and cheese strats to every situation.  imo that's probably the best way to do it too.

[Mr.Tarunio]

you can flingo lavae with the lava ponds, when one cheese is down there are still more fuel to complain about how the game is designed. But you know... play the game you want to play ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Erineyes7 said:

It's not even Cheese this time, It's using the game's mechanics against it. Which is, in fact, good game design.

Okay maybe.. but if I am the host of a world.. and it is MY World why can’t I have something like a Geometric placement grid or the Forest Biome from hamlet littered with little plants that prevent you from placing any type of structure in the area?

Why can’t I choose between a plot of land that players CAN place structures on, and a plot of land (just like Hamlet) where players CANT?
 

People ignore my suggestions but facts are facts, Klei has used the mechanics in their dlcs and they are mechanics that work- rather people want those mechanics are not is a different subject altogether but if I am the host and I don’t want walls built, I should have some option that lets me prevent it.

and as an Xbox player without Mods, it has to be something KLEI adds to the game in an official capacity.

[Cheggf]

Ice staff is great. I use it all the time. It doesn't matter that they unfreeze in one hit because freezing enemies you're actually fighting isn't what it's for. You use it to freeze the bishop as you fight the rook. You use it to freeze the deerclops as you fight the shadows. You use it to freeze the crab king to interrupt his actions. You use it to freeze the Wilson as you /happy /joy /joy /happy. You use it to freeze the Mactusk as you fight his hounds.

Ice staff has a lot of different uses for it and is a very powerful item. It doesn't need to be any better than it already is. You can increase the durability if you play as Wes.

[Zeklo]

I'm all for making Lavae an inescapable aspect of the fight, but they gotta be made into an enjoyable aspect first. 

[Nettalie]

6 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I'm all for making Lavae an inescapable aspect of the fight, but they gotta be made into an enjoyable aspect first. 

Wait... you mean to tell me the reason players use the wall strat so often is because they think Lavae are... not enjoyable to fight against?

[kuroite]

25 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Wait... you mean to tell me the reason players use the wall strat so often is because they think Lavae are... not enjoyable to fight against?

Im pretty sure its more because the fight is more convenient that way.