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Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?


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7 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I'm not saying that that "if you like wall cheese then you noob" that's not what my reply was about. But, the misunderstanding is my fault so I apologise. I was talking about how saying that wall cheese should stay in the game because beginners struggle with the boss is even worse of an argument than mines. 

Yes, saying that wall defenders are noobs was going to be  misunderstood for sure

I would say that you are right if wasnt because the boss is really difficult. I dont see the problem of having the walls working like they are working right know so people can practise kiting her since it already took a lot of time to master

Without the wall method i couldnt learn to beat her without the wall

Is like playing wolf, wendy, wigf or wx to learn the game. But having these characters doesnt mean that people will only play them, some people play maxwell, wormwood or even wes. The same can be applied to this kind of methods, they exist but doesnt mean that people wont enjoy the "fair" version of the fight

I mean, we arent talking about AG. You are using tools from the game to beat her lavar AI, atleast she isnt cheesing herself like AG and you have to actually fight her not like AG that can be defeated with an axe, 0 armor and without even wasting rocks to place walls. Both are exploits but i think is pretty clear one isnt problematic (outside of people that get pissed because others play in a different way, for those... just fix your life you will see how you will stop caring about it) meanwhile the other is result of a very bad design

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44 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

The only way to end neverending tradition of fighting with a wall is to fix the cheese.

Yea it sucks... I wish there was a way to play without that. Maybe a way to play a world with our rules or so...

44 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

This happens every time no matter what server I join people always act like I'm a madman for even suggesting not making a wall.

So you get kicked for trying to go on servers trying to force others to play your way... Ironic. 

Why don't you try Mike's "Diary Free" server, or Zombiedupe's "Willpower Resistance" ? They seem to not like walls either. You might need to turn PvP on to kill ZD if he can't resist it tho...

Anyway, on a serious note, i give up on this argument. All your concerns are easily fixed by creating your own servers instead of trying to tell people how to play. You ignore that, so no point in saying the same things over and over if you just keep pretending that option does not exist. 

You win. :wilson_goodjob:

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47 minutes ago, xhyom said:

"The Forge is an Event exclusive to Don't Starve Together, the first of a planned series of such events. The event includes a 6-player co-op challenge in an arena, featuring exclusive enemy Mobs and Bosses, combat perks for all Characters, new Weapons and Armor, a Gladiator Skin set, and a new skin trading system involving Spools."

On Topic.

And then someone starts building a Wall in the middle of madness, anticipating DF wave :chargrined:

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Does literally no one understand my view point? I mean all I see here is complaints when there shouldn’t be any.. here’s what I KNOW as Facts: Anytime Klei releases a new update, sometime later down the road they also go back and add toggle options FOR the features of that new update to your lovely little menu of World Gen settings-

RockJaw Sharks Tons, Saladmander Tons etc etc..

So: If Klei decides Hey we want to actually add a KNG+ which can be activated by several different methods- It’s own game mode/server type, a triggerable in-game event, etc- There will also be new OPTIONS added to this menu of things you can toggle on & off.

I get it, I get it.. people are like “build the wall or be urber elite at solo’ing it in the face-

MEANWHILE: I’m over here thinking of If it were made easier to kill, and less tedious to the point people ARE Building those walls- Less and less people would even bother using the walls, obviously.. right?

And when the fight because more “Fun” beyond just building the wall, or fighting it like some elite pro, then EVERYONE can enjoy this piece of content that is in the game right?

Rather I like to admit to it or NOT Klei has been making A LOT of this game new player friendly: And as just an example- The Hook, Line and Inker opening cinematic shows Wilson catching a hostile Skittersquid on his fishing line, but we ALL Know Skittersquid are completely passive to the player unless attacked first, and they don’t even have a % chance to be fished up like that.

If Klei for whatever reason won’t even add something officially into the game that’s seen in their own art (who knows maybe they felt it would make people NOT want to go Seafishing?) Then it’s pretty safe to assume that they wouldn’t JUST change this fight so walls are less effective- The more likely outcome will be: They will Nerf how many hits it takes to kill Dragonfly, her Larvae and how many of them she can spawn at once.

I actually WANT to randomly fish hostile Skittersquid, because as the game plays NOW the only way to get the things to even fight me is wait for one to come ashore then hit it with a Spear.

Klei choose the “Safe” route and I’m getting really sick of the safe route… with a menu full of things that can be toggled on and off, more and less.. Why can’t I have more OPTIONS?

I realize that has mostly nothing at all to do with this topic- But it is the most clear cut example of “we don’t want to make the game too hard that it scares away players.”

So you can pretty much bet every dollar you own- They wouldn’t just change dragonfly’s fight so people can no longer build walls- They will change it so it’s easy enough less people feel they need to Be urber elite pro’s to take it on without them.

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3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So: If Klei decides Hey we want to actually add a KNG+ which can be activated by several different methods- It’s own game mode/server type, a triggerable in-game event, etc- There will also be new OPTIONS added to this menu of things you can toggle on & off.

Yes. And that will be pointless, since the same servers where people build walls now will have those options off, wich would lead to the same exact problem you seem to have currently: joining servers and walls being there.

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I get it, I get it.. people are like “build the wall or be urber elite at solo’ing it in the face-

No, you don't get it. People are more like "let us decide how we want to tackle the fight instead of trying to limit our choices based on your own preference"

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Rather I like to admit to it or NOT Klei has been making A LOT of this game new player friendly:

Yea. Celestial Champion and the whole new lunar content is really new player friendly. And not even the Great Wall of China can cheese that one.

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei choose the “Safe” route and I’m getting really sick of the safe route… with a menu full of things that can be toggled on and off, more and less.. Why can’t I have more OPTIONS?

Well, because it would take a huge amount of scrolling power to go through all the bs ideas. Today is walls, tomorrow is catapults, then boats, etc etc etc. The list is endless.

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3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei choose the “Safe” route and I’m getting really sick of the safe route… with a menu full of things that can be toggled on and off, more and less.. Why can’t I have more OPTIONS?

i think you dont understand that the game is a bussiness not a dream become true machine

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23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i think you dont understand that the game is a bussiness not a dream become true machine

Maybe it’s not- but as long as Klei continues to update the game: Understand that they are changing a product I already bought and enjoyed for what it was, not what it’s being turned into.. And while change is often a good thing (Regular Gardens<RWYS Gardens) not everyone wants to embrace change… so we circle back around to the part of having OPTIONS- let’s just say for arguments sake: Klei finally gave you ALL what you wanted and that broken portal become activated: Only for you to discover that stepping into it has terraformed the entire constant into a “Lunar” Variant where most creatures you already know and are familiar with are now infused with Moon Glass and have new abilities (Welcome to KNG+)

KNG+ will add a ton of brand new features and changes, because well DUH it’s a New Game + Mode- You’ve all played a NG+ mode before right?

Anyway… those features will no doubt bring new world gen settings that can be toggled on/off/more/less.

Now IF the player just wants to disable most of the features of KNG+ and continue to play the game the regular way but with some of the KNG+ changes they LIKE and NONE of the changes they don’t like…

Then that’s ON YOU THE PLAYER, Not Klei or how much work they put into it.

For Arguements sake: let’s pretend under KNG+ Dragonfly has been infused with Moon Glass, not only does she now have AoE shard attacks like Shattered spiders, but she can also harden her shell to regenerate health, oh and building walls to avoid larvae? Forget it.. LoLz funny moon powers drastically altered this fight.

So- The OPTION I’m now giving you: Do you continue to fight normal Dragonfly, or do you fight KNG+ Dragonfly?

People who pick normal are in that group of people I spoke of at the top of this post: Who can not, do not, and will not, accept changes to the game.

Those people are in a group all by themselves, where other players actually WANT to see the Moonstorm event modify how bosses behavior is: No amount of changes Klei makes will impact those who never asked for or wanted the fight changed.

It expands far far FAR beyond just building a wall or fighting without them: And these view points have to be taken into consideration when discussing the future of the game.

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17 minutes ago, amogus said:

Mike, I don't think Klei is just going to conjure up a near-complete overhaul of the game out of nowhere..

You'd  be better off just downloading Uncompromising Mode or something.

oh wait

Meh: Well despite anything anyone has said throughout this entire thread… in the end, it’s still Klei’s vision, it’s their product, their world, their characters- and much like writing a book: It needs to live up to THEIR Vision of what they want it to be, we can suggest ideas & beg for changes/no changes all day long… but in the end it will live up to KLEI’S Vision- not yours or mine.. if that means never changing things then so be it, if that means MASSIVE Overhauls to things like Fishing & Farming- So be it.

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On 9/29/2021 at 3:37 PM, ALCRD said:

Ah yes another one of those "I want to force everyone to play how i want them to" threads.

:wilsondisagreeable:

 

Pretty much this. 

 

The whole point of DS is to play how you wanna play. 

 

What's considered a "cheese" might not be due to resource factors and effort. Aka stone needed for and defensive gear.

Then remove  winona/ houndius since she/it  can cheese the whole game /s

42 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Maybe it’s not- but as long as Klei continues to update the game: Understand that they are changing a product I already bought and enjoyed for what it was, not what it’s being turned into.. 

Bro thats when you put the game down and do something else with your time 

 

Or play a different game 

55 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

this is gettin more and more stupid like the originaltalk here is not even here anymore its just some other threads at this point

Welcome to the internet , where if we don't agree, I'll bring up a useless tangent so u can't prove me wrong!

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On 10/6/2021 at 8:59 AM, Mike23Ua said:

I’m just going to ask at this point.

IF Klei releases a new game mode (KNG+) and offered up a Re-imagined completely overhauled version of this fight that made walls less effective would you use it &/or play in this new mode or with this Dragonfly 2.0 toggled to On@ZombieDupe?

I play default and always default, because that is the default experience. However, I would play other presets to challenge myself, like me and many have done with Oxygen Not Included. Oxygen Not Included actually has a good in-depth and unique challenges in presets and I have played those a lot. In contrast, there are almost no good presets in DS or DST that fundamentally change the experience well enough to enjoy any significant challenge. Turning something to lots is a cheap setting compared to twisting what biomes are present, what biome you start in and how to progress from there, seasonal and day changes alone don't do it typically, world generation changes is where it's at. How many people realistically play Lights Out and how often vs how many people and how often like to play Rime in ONI?

But even if there were good presets, the terrible issues of the combat gap and other terrible design decisions would make it not work well enough for multiplayer. I would end up only playing these on my own or with other dedicated professional players every now and then since a new player would not be able to handle anything default, let alone tuned up to the extreme.

On 10/6/2021 at 8:59 AM, Mike23Ua said:

Because I’m just going to be brutally honest here- No amount of content or re-worked content is going to matter if your just going to continue to opt out of it and continue to use what you know works best.

Im asking very specifically: IF Klei offered up a alternate version of this fight (possibly even effected by Moonstorm) would anyone even bother to play it??? Or would you continue to just build the wall and fight the normal (and now extremely highly outdated..) version of this fight?

Your lack of understanding to the limitations of options as a balancing tool is showing yet again. There is no reason to play an alternative method if you get nothing different more or equally as desirable from the 'standard' method.

There is however one boss that has 2 modes with different drops and the mode you play depends on how ready you are and that is Toadstool. It's primarily a difficulty thing with better loot however and not a loot variation with a different combat tactic, unless you specifically want the Mushlight blueprint over the Glowcap one. And surprise, I do fight primarily against the harder version, the Mysery Toadstool specifically because of the increased amount of and more valuable drops. Only time I wouldn't is if I really wanted the easier version's loot earlier and could not prepare for the harder version, but that is more common mid game. Toadstool is a pretty terrible boss overall, but it passes for an ok example here.

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2 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I play default and always default, because that is the default experience. However, I would play other presets to challenge myself

Okay so do it.  Go fight dfly, without a wall.  Why?  Because you want to challenge yourself.  You don't need to change any of your worldgen settings, Klei has already patched your game to allow you to do this.  Just when you get to the dfly, and you see there is not a wall there yet, just *don't* build one.

You can do it.

I just did.  Inspired by sharing Guille's video earlier, I started working on it.  It looked fun, and he didn't even use Wolfgang which really interested me.  I was able to get the fight done, Wanda, elder form, no wall, but I haven't quite got her rage pattern down.  Once I get the patterns down for her rage form, I'll do it without pan flute too - but Wanda's low health puts you closer to death than you'd think even with 95% damage reduction from shadow armor, especially when fire is involved...  It was fun, but I'd never risk a real world on it lol.

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8 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

I would end up only playing these on my own or with other dedicated professional players every now and then

wow good now u can compromise on being gitgud dairy free world 

 

 

8 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

since a new player would not be able to handle anything default, let alone tuned up to the extreme.

thats just how people progress they learn . try the easiest . then try learn other method . its not like that player only see how to cheese dragonfly from youtube there tons of video showing "how to kill df solo no wall no damage no armor and no pressure if u only want watch this video and do wall instead"
if they choose to fight with wall its their choice . if they wanna try it without wall also their choice 

not all people have those urge to play things perfectly . or doing that worth of praise of "fast finger swapping inventory" guy .

believe me those people who love farm . build base . creating creative cheese have more hours spend in the server . than other guy who only want to speed run all bosses (only want fight have no interest in beauty of  digging turf) .. when done they will not be seen at day 200+ (this was based on me hosting for a really big group of player) 

 

8 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

the 'standard' method.

since when there is standard method ? i think klei never released "hey guys this is how u clear the game" 
every strategy is acceptable . there no differentiate between player who choose ice staff strategy or wall strategy , all for same purpose . killing DF 

 

 

8 hours ago, ZombieDupe said:

There is however one boss that has 2 modes with different drops and the mode you play depends on how ready you are and that is Toadstool

ummm yeah same boss same kiting pattern . different hp . have different loot . both boss chesseable with same method .
u can kill it with same strategy with different form only if u willing to smack it a bit longer .. oh yeah that 

 

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