Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[GetNerfedOn]

cheesing is in my opinion part and parcel of emergent gameplay, which is a core part of a game's engagement with its audience. players finding new strategies to deal with bosses is a hallmark of good game design.

The closest parallels i can find are Dark Souls compared to Sekiro. Dark souls and its very vast array of weapons, armor and tools allow for a myriad of strategies (and cheese), allowing even new players chances for experimentation as to what build, playstyle and tactics they may use; in contrast, Sekiro limiting you to a specific kit literally forces you to git gud for every boss.

How does this translate over to Don't Starve Together's dragonfly wall cheese? In my point of view, the latter is a very intelligent use of both your resources and knowledge of the game AI to significantly ease up one of the game's tougher challenges, as with other cheese that i find. Sure, others may cry foul about this but it must be held in mind that methods lik these are a choice and denying other players this choice makes things unfun for a significantly large grp of ppl 

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Even if you want to fight it without walls involved, too bad someone’s going to come along and say Let there be Wall!

If you want to fight the dfly without a wall, and there is already a wall there, just break a few pieces and you're back online.  That's why we DON'T need any changes, or extra settings.  Both options are already available.  The only reason people want this changed is to force others to play as they want them to.

Why waste any development time trying to find a "solution" to what is actually not a problem.

Quote

Everyone is happy, all players end up satisfied.

Actually not correct - there is no bottom to the rabbit hole of "cheese."  Largely because the game is a sandbox world encouraging emergent gameplay.  There are so many options in the game to work around a problem rather than bash your head through it.  Which means there will always be another thing that pisses some l33t_core player off that another player does that makes the fight easier.

No fix is needed for this, which is why no one likes your "extra worldgen settings" feature - you know the people complaining about this aren't the ones picking the worldgen settings anyway XD  Otherwise they would probably just ban ppl for placing walls lol  They're probably joining pubs, looking to show off their no-wall dfly, and finding others got there first, probably even killed it already, and dang that l33t1uz3r has nothing to show off now /sob

Its like that person a while ago who wanted to force people to wait until summer to tackle ruins because every pub world they joined had someone already rush it before they were ready lol  The game can't have a setting that only player x can do y activity.  That just isn't how multiplayer games work XD

[Frosty_Mentos]

There's no point even in buffing this boss's lavae AI when the boss doesn't provide all that much loot. It's good powerful loot but it takes effort to get to it enough already.
I'd rather spend several stacks of rocks to get over with this at the moment to get necessary things I need and get on with my game doing more important things.
The only other use for DF is to shave off the scales by slowly farming them, otherwise there's nothing more to this boss tbh.

If you wanna do the boss without the walls - you can just go around it and do it any way you want.
If you're not enjoying that people are using this as a valid tactic for who knows long (3-4 years now I think?) and Klei haven't changed anything since - clearly it's not worth for them or others to fix it and it might be just a personal problem. Solution? - fat balloon of copium lmao or idk just mod it to be more interesting.

There's only been small group of people that don't like these 'cheese' things, while bigger group doesn't even care and lives on killing dragonfly for what it's worth and the majority who haven't passed through first day of winter.

This trend just feels silly to me personally, I don't think almost anyone even talks about Dfly on how irrelevant the boss feels besides being a scale farm for base protections. I don't think anything needs to change and there's no point to it unless Klei themselves decides to rework the boss. For now - Dfly is at a convenient spot for where it is. Challenging and basic enough, provides valuable flameproof material with an ugly flooring texture.

For the love of god Klei, make a skin for scaled flooring cause I feel repulsed on even wanting to use it due to the wild and messy texture it has lmao. Something nicer and fancier would be better than what we got now xd.

[Mike23Ua]

The PROBLEM with “just hammering down the Walls” or ignoring what everyone says and rushing out to bravely fight it beyond those walls is that: By doing that YOU are considered the Grieving player, even if they’re trying to force you into doing something You don’t want to do- Majority vote out votes you.

Maybe that’s not a problem on PC or PlayStation consoles because I don’t know how those platforms handle players reported for grieving, but I know over on XBOX it can lead to being temporarily (or in extreme cases..) Permanently banned from playing online, this isn’t just a Klei Ban preventing you from playing DST when you join a server as Wurt and take a hammer to every pig house because you really don’t feel like being murdered today & just being kicked/banned out the server.

Bans on Xbox will ban you from the Entirety of Xbox Live: this includes playing games online, talking to and communication with friends, an Xbox ban has never been pretty: and you can get them as easily as having a group of kids wrongfully report you for something you DID NOT DO. But in this case of hammering down dragonfly walls or going away from the other players to get the bosses aggro on You, that is something you DID DO and it can be considered as spoiling their fun Aka-Grieving even if by them doing the fight that way: It’s spoiling YOUR fun.

So no: I’m sorry but hammering down the wall or running onto the other side of it is NOT a valid answer.

[Frosty_Mentos]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

---

Make own world or play with the few who would do as you wanna play with? Kill the boss before anyone in that way you wanna kill it? Ask for friends to turn up raid boss spawning to lots so everyone could do the fights in any way they want and often? Not like the whole arena gets walled up around, usually it being only one side. You're just ranting about your own problem here right now while not considering the group. At least you could just ask the group to try things your way instead cause you wanna do it.

You just sound kinda selfish right now by trying to rant about a group of people frustrating cause they do the cheese and they didn't do things the way you wanted instead. What's up with you lately? It's like pent up aggression all the time is what I see. :/

[prettynuggets]

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The PROBLEM with “just hammering down the Walls” or ignoring what everyone says and rushing out to bravely fight it beyond those walls is that: By doing that YOU are considered the Grieving player, even if they’re trying to force you into doing something You don’t want to do- Majority vote out votes you.

or maybe u can say " hey guys .. df is back alive .. i want try to kill it solo ..but is it alright if i tear down some walls to let the larvae out ? i want fight legitly like pro .. when i done i will put the wall back .. pls dont think that im grieving thanks  " 

[Summ4r]

On 9/30/2021 at 1:16 PM, Mike23Ua said:

Yeah which goes back to my point I said several hours ago, if I’m the host of the world.. why do I NOT have the option to have the floor that Dragonfly’s fight takes place on be like it is now where players can place structures upon it, OR be like the Jungle Biome in the Hamlet DLC that prevents the player from placing structures anywhere in the area?

(a redesigned Firefly biome where the ground is scorching molted pools of hardened lava where anything placed in the area goes up in immediate flames would be Cool but just porting over Hamlet Jungle turf world work if a cool Firefly 2022 redesign can’t make the cut.)

yes, you are the host of the world, but you don't get to choose what kind of people come into your server, and if you want to force them to play the way you want them to but klei didn't give you that option. you have three options. one, go find like-minded players, or just play by yourself, right? two, learn to code. three, just wait and complain klei won't add it to the official version just because it's what you want. seems to me you are doing the third one, the most stupid and selfish one. you know if you learn to code, you can do a lot of things.

[Yuuko]

9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

The PROBLEM with “just hammering down the Walls” or ignoring what everyone says and rushing out to bravely fight it beyond those walls is that: By doing that YOU are considered the Grieving player, even if they’re trying to force you into doing something You don’t want to do- Majority vote out votes you.

As you've stated *many* times, there are no pub servers on console.  This means you're logging into another player's game.  Yes if you mess anything up they can ban you.  Guess what, if YOU make the server and YOU fight dfly and someone else builds a wall, you can ban them...  So yes, it is a valid answer.

Funny you're so stuck on this point considering you yourself aren't fighting dfly either way, with or without wall so...  Why don't you just let this one go.  Its really frustrating when you say things you clearly don't know about because its not something you have experience with...

[Mike23Ua]

14 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

As you've stated *many* times, there are no pub servers on console.  This means you're logging into another player's game.  Yes if you mess anything up they can ban you.  Guess what, if YOU make the server and YOU fight dfly and someone else builds a wall, you can ban them...  So yes, it is a valid answer.

Funny you're so stuck on this point considering you yourself aren't fighting dfly either way, with or without wall so...  Why don't you just let this one go.  Its really frustrating when you say things you clearly don't know about because its not something you have experience with...

It’s bold of you to assume what I do and don’t do in this game isn’t it? I’ve actually joined peoples worlds just to HELP them kill Dragonfly.

Doesnt mean I enjoy the fight any more or less.

I suggest the things I suggest because unlike most suggestions I see where people only want something for themselves, I kinda just stand around watching how other players play the game: Helping them only when it looks like they may be in need of assistance with something.. I watch people who are still trying to learn valid tactics to fight Bee Queen flee away in terror when it changes phases and they weren’t expecting that.

For ME: Dragonfly in particular is a tedious fight- And most Tedious fights can be won by simply crafting 14 or so marble armors and then standing in front of it hitting it till it’s dead, no need to ever actually dodge anything except maybe pan-flute it before it rages everywhere.

But I also watch how other people PLAY, and when I suggest ANYTHING for this game not only do I consider my personal wants of wanting Shipwrecked & Hamlet style features in DST- but I also consider my completely under experienced friends who are still dying at night because darkness came and they forgot to build a light source, Anything I can possibly suggest FOR MYSELF will make the game a Million times harder on THEM.

And when you play this game with people of varying skill levels & preferences: You start to look at things from their perspective- There’s currently a thread wanting changes to how SANITY works…

Can you imagine the literal “Nightmare” that would be on people who already die to the current sanity stuff?

I guess it’s a good thing Sanity can be turned off altogether then right? But:

If a Sanity rework happens and the Only way for those people who still struggled with it to continue to enjoy their game is by now completely Disabling them altogether- You have quite literally stripped them of a gameplay feature they were trying to enjoy.

And Why? Because YOU thought it was too easy so Klei changed it without providing any other options besides turning them off completely.

 

Hopefully some of you FINALLY see my view point now.

[Frosty_Mentos]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

---

I don't get it, are you still against the wall strat with Dfly or are you now defending it like defending current sanity mechanics to not get reworked?... Why are you talking about sanity all of a sudden? Cuz this is unrelated to the topic and now I've lost track of what you're talking about anymore.

What is your point in all this in TL;DR?

[Mike23Ua]

11 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

I don't get it, What is your point in all this in TL;DR?

My point is: this thread is a prime example of people having varying skill levels & opinions, and Klei has a Menu of Settings that can satisfy those varying opinions.

For example: lets just pretend Klei announced an actual Hardcore Mode for DST- This mode would change many features & add or modify content, such as just an example- Frog Rain is now Poison Dart Frog Rain.

Now “IF” such a game mode were introduced to the game: There will parts of this mode YOU will like, and parts of it that you will absolutely hate..

But- As I keep desperately trying to point out: With a menu of things you can toggle on/off/more/less over- you can quite literally turn OFF the features you DON’T like, while still keeping the ones from that new Hardcore Mode that you DO like.

And more importantly on a HARDCORE MODE- I fully expect Dragonfly’s Larvae to jump over or explode through walls.

Dont like it? Don’t use it.. problem solved for everyone.

[Frosty_Mentos]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

---

So, basically, you just want an on and off switch for Dragonfly lavae to just jump over walls or not. Or rather wanting hardcore mode with that being an option to toggled. Ok. So... 
This only repeats the thought of what other guy and you were saying at the start of this topic and it doesn't really add any new info besides repeating same thing over and over again.
I get your point but half of it is ranting about players not playing the way you wanna try playing. Repeating same point doesn't make it any more compelling.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

30 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Dragonfly in particular is a tedious fight- And most Tedious fights can be won by simply crafting 14 or so marble armors and then standing in front of it hitting it till it’s dead, no need to ever actually dodge anything except maybe pan-flute it before it rages everywhere

Mike....

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

So, basically, you just want an on and off switch for Dragonfly lavae to just jump over walls or not. Or rather wanting hardcore mode with that being an option to toggled. 

In short? Yes! Instead of having to hammer down walls someone has built or kick them out my game when they don’t play the way I would like them to the option is there that forces them to play the way I’m asking & if they don’t like it, they can leave and join another server.

While THIS is just one thread and one tiny little thing about a very specific fight, I have provided you with examples of how this “one tiny specific thing” ties into a larger Hardcore Mode update.

And having TOGGLES to pick & choose what parts of that new mode you want ON and what parts you want OFF will let you set the game to be as difficult as you want it without it becoming too difficult for you to still enjoy.

YES,YES, 100% YES..

And do keep in mind that since Klei’s last QoL update (not this months but the one prior) you can quite literally exit the world at any time now and change these settings before relaunching it.

So- Once again YES

This isn’t just one tiny “niche thing only I Want..” its one tiny thing that ties itself into a much bigger update, and a game mode that Klei devs have reacted to with like & thanks reactions: So that should tell you it’s at least SOMETHING that’s on their minds.. right?

 

[Frosty_Mentos]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

---

This is stupid, this same rinse and repeat is stupid. I'm not dealing with you anymore. 

[1bubbainpa]

Mike, I think the point is that there are too many specific scenarios that one would warrant for customization that require heaps of coding from Klei that would be better spent elsewhere, an example being “no wall building in this specific biome.”

...Which is why many people are adverting you to play PC where you can mod the game as you wish.

[MilesUpshore]

Ow my eyes...mucho texto, also picking hair strands over the very thin line between "cheesing" and "rEaL cOmBaT" strategies

If you don't want dragonfly wall cheese to happen, might as well suggest a combat overhaul update (which is going to be tedious due to multiple balance changes) or just don't use it, DST is still a sandbox survival game after all so there's many methods to fight the same boss.

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s bold of you to assume what I do and don’t do in this game isn’t it?

On 9/29/2021 at 5:22 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve killed Dragonfly 3x in my entirety of playing DST

On 9/30/2021 at 12:07 PM, Mike23Ua said:

When are people going to just start being honest?

ok

[Frosty_Mentos]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

ok

 Same

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

ok

Sorry?? Should I have specified “Alone”? 
Any boss is relatively easy when you bring a group and smash attack. 
 

Especially now that WANDA is in the game: you can literally just have someone stand idly by with an inventory full of second chance clocks while the other players die repeatedly being revived by her until whatever your fighting is Dead.

[Frosty_Mentos]

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Sorry?? Should I have specified “Alone”? 
Any boss is relatively easy when you bring a group and smash attack. 
 

Especially now that WANDA is in the game: you can literally just have someone stand idly by with an inventory full of second chance clocks while the other players die repeatedly being revived by her until whatever your fighting is Dead.

so, 3 dragonflies solo... I don't mean to demean you but you're a still a newbie then and our arguments between you and us were nothing but sanity wasters .-. lol. Welp. Tell us when ya successfully solo the boss with those ice staves and doing it without walls and we'll take ya a lil more seriously. Some of us solo these things and have likely killed dfly in over a hundred of times more and haven't had issues with either walls or no walls technique and picked the best variant for longterm farming. Ya can't do it and still call the boss fight boring? Well, sorry but - skill issue! Git gud, Wendy main, or w/e.

Leaving this on that note unless we do dm's or something cause this is gonna get very heated soon and I already smell JoeW's pipe scorching after this post. 

[Echsrick]

this is gettin more and more stupid its like 2 threads are now 1 you know what the maybe know what the other one is but this is realy gettin nowhere

[Mike23Ua]

Please don’t DM me, because if your looking for someone to spend hours arguing back & forth with you will find out, just as all others who have DM’d me have found out.. I’m actually kinda boring and will probably just tell you that I’m sorry that I have upset you by the posts I make.

-sigh- one last time.. Klei obviously at least has had “thoughts” for introducing a Harder game mode/difficulty setting, I wouldn’t even call it “Uncompromising Mode” at this point because people just get that mixed up with the completely unrelated Mod made by players. Anyway with this new difficulty Mode: Would come a ton of new Options to toggle things On/Off/More/Less or possibly even change the way core mechanics you know that works the way they work NOW to work differently under this alternate “New Game +” style of game setting.

Using this thread as an example: On a harder game mode I would fully and 100% expect Larvae to jump over, leak through, or even explode into walls blowing a large portion of them away like a Minecraft creeper.

Now here is the part I’ve been trying to point out all this time: If (and that’s a big “IF”) such a Game Mode was to ever be added to the game in official capacity & to avoid confusion with the player created Mod- let’s just call it “Klei’s New Game +” (KNG+ for short)

Theres going to obviously be a lot of things about KNG+ That you will like & throughly enjoy where there will be other parts you absolutely hate & could potentially ruin the experience of the game altogether for you.

Which is why: there would be options to leave the things you want turned on on, while also being able to turn off the features or changes from KNG+ that you dislike.

Quite literally being able to pick the parts of the new mode you LIKE while completely disabling the parts you DONT LIKE all without ever installing a single Mod.

Now Is it a lot of extra unnecessary coding and programming on Klei’s behalf? Probably.. but that isn’t up to anyone outside of Klei’s employment schedule to decide or not, now is it?

 

[SonicDen220]

I don't think there is any point in discussing this further. Mike keeps repeating the same statements he made several times in both threads already, such as "klei is gonna make this new difficulty mode because they once reacted to a post about it", "there needs to be an option to prevent placing walls at Dfly" or "there will be options so you can disable things you don't like".

No one is going to gain anything by replying, no one is going to have any effect on his never-changing opinions. Hard to even call it a discussion if it's just the same statements repeated over and over.

[Frosty_Mentos]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Please don’t DM me, because if your looking for someone to spend hours arguing back & forth with you will find out, just as all others who have DM’d me have found out.. I’m actually kinda boring and will probably just tell you that I’m sorry that I have upset you by the posts I make.

It's fine but boring isn't equal to poorly conveying your thoughts and still fighting over them. Even when people don't believe in you ya likely gotta do a lil bit more research and practice by experimentation in different ways you'd play this to have some bold claims to be supported after. Gotta get some ideas from other people as well as own and put it into a better thread as to: Why would they need to do that? What will the spoils would be to be that worth to do this fight that many times? And how will that affect long term and the newer players?