[Game Update] - 478900

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

"It was great to fight the boss without cheesing"
while talking about cheese lol

This is the gray scale I talk about when ever cheesing comes up.  ppl like to draw their own arbitrary line on what is "legit" and what isn't, but the reality is the game is what it is.  AFW bone prisons used to be escaped by standing next to the cliff and most ppl considered this "legit strats," but it was simply bug exploitation and when the bug was fixed all the "skill" ppl whine about it lol.

Better to accept you draw the line where you want for yourself, and quit judging other ppl.  If Klei wants to fix pillars for the AG they can.  Just like they can fix ai exploits if they want.  Quit hating on ppl just b/c they play different then you.  If Klei reverts the change to the AG ai I'm all for it.  But don't forget its ai exploitation, no matter how much skill it takes to pull off...

<not directed at the OP, just I been in a lot of talks on these forums about cheese and what's "legit" and the reality is you're always exploiting the game>

not every cheese is an exploit and not every exploit is cheese

cheese at its most basic definition means making the fight easier, regardless of whether puma's method was an exploit or not (exploit is a very vaguely defined thing), the fact that it actually makes the fight harder means it's not cheese

on the other hand certain cheese methods have been explicitly stated by klei devs to be intended, so they're not "exploits" because they're not an unintended mechanic if that's the definition you use

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

moving a little to prevent AG to do the uppercut at the same time that you get 2 extra hits meanwhile he charges is cheesing? lmao

exploiting a bug is exploiting a bug.  Whether its a complex, frame perfect execution to glitch to the end boss room from the spawn point, or whether its a simple, consistent 2 input wall clip its still exploiting.  No matter how much "skill" you needed to exploit this element of the AG fight, its exploitation.  Hence this was considered a "bug fix" by Klei, not an ai tweak or upgrade.  Its *now* working as intended, meaning things that don't work *now* weren't intended.

You can lock up AG on the pillar, or between graves.  You can have the right attack speed to stun lock it.  You can use walter to slingshot stun it with cursed rounds.  Or you can go through the motions of the "real fight" and steal a few extra hits from buggy ai...  None of it is "legit" except for where you draw that line for yourself.

5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

not every cheese is an exploit and not every exploit is cheese

cheese at its most basic definition means making the fight easier, regardless of whether puma's method was an exploit or not (exploit is a very vaguely defined thing), the fact that it actually makes the fight harder means it's not cheese

on the other hand certain cheese methods have been explicitly stated by klei devs to be intended, so they're not "exploits" because they're not an unintended mechanic if that's the definition you use

In this case its about making the fight quicker than "should be allowed."  According to Klei, since they considered this a "fix."

Some glitches take a lot of skill to pull off, such a simple definition as "what makes the game easier" doesn't cut it at all.  Cheesing can be bypassing any element in the game, including getting extra attacks in during a window that wasn't designed to allow those extra attacks so you can finish a fight quicker regardless of the difficulty it takes to pull off.

I'm all for them reverting it, but its exploiting a bug all the same.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[SonicDen220]

4 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

• Spiders will now have the correct wetness applied to them when spawned from a Spider Den.

 

While everyone else is arguing about ancient guardian, I'm thankful to @lakhnish for making Webber rework not ruin the game anymore.

[Zeklo]

Yeah I'd just like an Ancient Guardian complete rework in the future. Don't think anyone would complain about that fight getting a fresh not-Rook-body set of paint to make it thematically, and gameplay-atically engaging.

[Duck986]

18 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

While everyone else is arguing about ancient guardian

I don't think anything will change it all like it was with other AI tweaks

Edited September 17, 2021 by Duck986
derp

[Terra B Welch]

5 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

Sorry about the AG ai fix. It was done because Wanda and Walter could stand at a short distance any from him and he would stop attacking them. I will discuss this with the team.

Maybe some delay between AG's charges might allow the old kiting strat to work without completely reverting AG's AI? On a 10000HP boss being able to land 3 hits on average made doing the kite strat alot more tolerable.

[FreyaMaluk]

11 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

It cost a ton of ammo and required precise timing to succeed. I'm actually sad to see this go because it was one boss fight that actually gave Walter a unique strategy, and I showcased it on a recent boss run.

I understand this and I saw you do this on stream which takes no doubt skill and precision but I still feel it makes no sense that a pebble can stop a big boss like that... Charging at you with incredible speed 

and in general de Ancient Guardian is in dire need of more interesting mechanics!! would love that the pillars cheese would not work either... 

7 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Yeah I'd just like an Ancient Guardian complete rework in the future. Don't think anyone would complain about that fight getting a fresh not-Rook-body set of paint to make it thematically, and gameplay-atically engaging.

would def like that-.... that fight is buggy most of the time... the AG still after the update got stunlocked in position when 3 people where attacking from different angles. and tbh I wish he did a ground pound or something...  a kickback ....

Edited September 17, 2021 by FreyaMaluk

[Milordo]

9 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

I thought you were acting like it was a sort of cheese

I just added that even leaving ancient guardian as it was before, the "boss fight" still sucks. I want more a complete rework to him and some adjustments to the labyrinth.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 hours ago, Shosuko said:

exploiting a bug is exploiting a bug.  Whether its a complex, frame perfect execution to glitch to the end boss room from the spawn point, or whether its a simple, consistent 2 input wall clip its still exploiting.  No matter how much "skill" you needed to exploit this element of the AG fight, its exploitation.  Hence this was considered a "bug fix" by Klei, not an ai tweak or upgrade.  Its *now* working as intended, meaning things that don't work *now* weren't intended.

You can lock up AG on the pillar, or between graves.  You can have the right attack speed to stun lock it.  You can use walter to slingshot stun it with cursed rounds.  Or you can go through the motions of the "real fight" and steal a few extra hits from buggy ai...  None of it is "legit" except for where you draw that line for yourself.

In this case its about making the fight quicker than "should be allowed."  According to Klei, since they considered this a "fix."

Some glitches take a lot of skill to pull off, such a simple definition as "what makes the game easier" doesn't cut it at all.  Cheesing can be bypassing any element in the game, including getting extra attacks in during a window that wasn't designed to allow those extra attacks so you can finish a fight quicker regardless of the difficulty it takes to pull off.

I'm all for them reverting it, but its exploiting a bug all the same.

The thing is that you arent exploiting anything with the 5 hits method, just timing when you can atack like how you time when atack klaus

As lakhnish said, the method can be used but only for 1 hit. Whatever they changed im his behavoid nust made him charge or react faster

And ofc i wont compare being behind a grave with no armor and an axe killing a boss that drops ruins loot with hitting him perfectly in time to kite all his atacks

I wish they remove the pillar cheese method just to stop reading certain things

[Keller Max]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

The thing is that you arent exploiting anything with the 5 hits method, just timing when you can atack like how you time when atack klaus

As lakhnish said, the method can be used but only for 1 hit. Whatever they changed im his behavoid nust made him charge or react faster

And ofc i wont compare being behind a grave with no armor and an axe killing a boss that drops ruins loot with hitting him perfectly in time to kite all his atacks

I wish they remove the pillar cheese method just to stop reading certain things

They should change Rook's attack patterns first. I hate to fight this charging idiot.

[Starlogy]

How did this bugfix patch end up being such a controversial update lol

[Well-met]

6 minutes ago, Starlogy said:

How did this bugfix patch end up being such a controversial update lol

it's pretty easy to understand why and was very predictable.

to answer your question, try reading the thread.

[Electroely]

18 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

Fixed a bug where most creatures and giants could get stun-locked by long range attacks when they should not have been. This was a very invasive change, please submit bugs if any creature’s behaviors have changed too drastically.

Could this change be reverted for MacTusk? Freezing him to kill him is a lot more inconvenient now, and I find it less cheesy than chasing him until his AI decides to ignore damage and walk back towards his home.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Electroely said:

chasing him until his AI decides to ignore damage and walk back towards his home.

that would be a good very waited fix

[Guille6785]

other changes I've felt to be very invasive:

-pigs can't be stunlocked with the right attack speed anymore, and I won't complain about pigs specifically, but it turns guardian pigs into an absolute waste of time to kill because of how often you have to dodge their attacks now

-the change to pigs also extends to mactusk which makes him a lot more annoying to hunt down now because you can only get 2 hits before he starts running away, this makes the ice staff very ineffective to catch up to him and essentially forces you to chase him until he decides to ignore you

-getting 3 hits on tallbirds is a lot harder now because they have some sort of hitstun immunity which makes them walk right into you as you attack

-the dragonfly now gets hitstunned every other attack which is really distracting and jarring

 

there may be more but these are the ones I've noticed that should definitely be reverted

Edited September 17, 2021 by Guille6785

[Dr. Safety]

17 minutes ago, Electroely said:

Could this change be reverted for MacTusk? Freezing him to kill him is a lot more inconvenient now, and I find it less cheesy than chasing him until his AI decides to ignore damage and walk back towards his home.

I agree. With a mob that runs away from you and shoots you from a distance, it isn't fun that when you do manage to run up to him and hit him, he just slips out of it after one hit and keeps running

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Starlogy said:

How did this bugfix patch end up being such a controversial update lol

b/c:

52 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

when I said to fix cheese I didn't mean MY cheese

lol

Everyone complained about Wanda hit stun and didn't even realize how much they were already exploiting hit stun without a ranged weapon.  Lotta "pro players" like to tell ppl to "get good" but don't wanna hear it themselves right now...

8 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

The thing is that you arent exploiting anything with the 5 hits method, just timing when you can atack like how you time when atack klaus

As lakhnish said, the method can be used but only for 1 hit. Whatever they changed im his behavoid nust made him charge or react faster

And ofc i wont compare being behind a grave with no armor and an axe killing a boss that drops ruins loot with hitting him perfectly in time to kite all his atacks

I wish they remove the pillar cheese method just to stop reading certain things

It was an exploit - a bug - and you can tell because Klei put it as a bug fix, not a behavior change.  If you watch the video you'll see that sometimes the AG goes into a charge, sometimes he sits there with a blank stare for a moment before charging.  This is what gives you the extra hits.

btw this is the reason Wanda could stunlock AG so............ either quit whining about Wanda or give up the cheese.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[Guille6785]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Everyone complained about Wanda hit stun and didn't even realize how much they were already exploiting hit stun without a ranged weapon.  Lotta "pro players" like to tell ppl to "get good" but don't wanna hear it themselves right now...

not only have I never asked any cheese to be patched, I already told you puma's method isn't a cheese because it makes the fight harder and not easier

why do you put words in my mouth

[FreyaMaluk]

51 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

other changes I've felt to be very invasive:

-pigs can't be stunlocked with the right attack speed anymore, and I won't complain about pigs specifically, but it turns guardian pigs into an absolute waste of time to kill because of how often you have to dodge their attacks now

-the change to pigs also extends to mactusk which makes him a lot more annoying to hunt down now because you can only get 2 hits before he starts running away, this makes the ice staff very ineffective to catch up to him and essentially forces you to chase him until he decides to ignore you

-getting 3 hits on tallbirds is a lot harder now because they have some sort of hitstun immunity which makes them walk right into you as you attack

-the dragonfly now gets hitstunned every other attack which is really distracting and jarring

 

there may be more but these are the ones I've noticed that should definitely be reverted

I have my own opinion on Walter...
but all these other changes aren't for sure intentional.... I expect they will hit the backstep watch soon :P

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

not only have I never asked any cheese to be patched, I already told you puma's method isn't a cheese because it makes the fight harder and not easier

why do you put words in my mouth

Making something easier is a pretty broad statement.  Making a fight quicker IS making it easier, by not spending as much time there.  Many many cheese / glitch / exploit take a lot of skill to pull off.  It doesn't mean they aren't exploiting the game.

Just accept it - there was a cheese method you used, and it got patched.  b/c ppl complain about Wanda cheese we're losing a lot of hit-stun tech.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

I have my own opinion on Walter...
but all these other changes aren't for sure intentional.... I expect they will hit the backstep watch soon :P

It’s possible, I’ve come to expect in pretty much any game I play when a new character is released to expect at least 2-3 weeks for feedback to pour in and they get inevitably nerf’d before I start playing them.

[chaosmonkey]

The stunlock changes in this patch feel like they are removing the higher skill options for killing certain mobs and forcing cheese methods in some cases. MacTusk is a great example of this: prior, if you play well you can catch MacTusk in a stunlock and kill him. The behavior as of this patch forces the player to leash him, or pan flute / ice staff after each single hit. MacTusk is a big example, but it has broken a lot of other mobs as well. Was it really a problem that no eyed deer could be stunlocked to death? They have no notable loot and are not a good resource for food; this just makes it more tedious to clean them up after a Klaus fight.

Similarly, AG changes have eliminated higher skill ways of playing the fight and incentivizing players to use the braindead pillar / gravestone blocking strategies. If AG timing tactics that take more skill are removed, the extremely cheese blocking strategies ought to be removed as well. Or just revert the AG AI changes.

I'd personally like Klei to take a more in depth review of each mob's stunlock mechanics rather than these sweeping changes which have arguably changed a lot of fighting mechanics for the worse.

 

Edit: And just to be clear, i have nothing against players using pillars to cheese AG -- my problem is that the higher skill ways of stunlocking or getting more hits in have been removed, and the most braindead cheese remains. Keep them both or fix them both but don't punish players who were trying to play the fight at a higher level.

Edited September 17, 2021 by chaosmonkey

[Yuuko]

Just now, chaosmonkey said:

The stunlock changes in this patch feel like they are removing the higher skill options for killing certain mobs and forcing cheese methods in some cases. MacTusk is a great example of this: prior, if you play well you can catch MacTusk in a stunlock and kill him. The behavior as of this patch forces the player to leash him, or pan flute / ice staff after each single hit. MacTusk is a big example, but it has broken a lot of other mobs as well. Was it really a problem that no eyed deer could be stunlocked to death? They have no notable loot and are not a good resource for food; this just makes it more tedious to clean them up after a Klaus fight.

Similarly, AG changes have eliminated higher skill ways of playing the fight and incentivizing players to use the braindead pillar / gravestone blocking strategies. If AG timing tactics that take more skill are removed, the extremely cheese blocking strategies ought to be removed as well. Or just revert the AG AI changes.

I'd personally like Klei to take a more in depth review of each mob's stunlock mechanics rather than these sweeping changes which have arguably changed a lot of fighting mechanics for the worse.

Its probably because to eliminate Wanda's stunlock they had to make changes throughout the system to remove stun lock.  They probably didn't pick and choose which creatures were effected because the change was in the core system.  They probably can't go back and put it in on a case by case basis without sinking an incredible amount of work, and the results may be very different and not behave as the players would expect.  Probably better to just take the change and move on.

[KeshS]

12 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

And just to be clear, i have nothing against players using pillars to cheese AG -- my problem is that the higher skill ways of stunlocking or getting more hits in have been removed, and the most braindead cheese remains. Keep them both or fix them both but don't punish players who were trying to play the fight at a higher level.

Truth be told, if the cheese method (pillars) was patched instead of skilled method and people started compaining, there would be a flood of comments to "git gud". Any change to AG will result in a backlash.

Edited September 17, 2021 by KeshS

[sinisterrkid]

23 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

[snip]

I just don't understand who you're trying to benefit in this argument. One one side it's people saying it was nice and more stimulating the other way, and on the other it just sounds like a lot of uncalled-for "get gud-ing" on the basis that whatever the devs resolve is the correct way. If you actually enjoy the new way I'll be honeslty glad and interested in hearing you talk about your experience! (And I haven't tried the game myself since the patch), but otherwise, that line of thinking is just gonna tie a knot on itself if the devs go back on their decision, since it's in their best interest that the game is, indeed, nice and more stimulating.

Edited September 17, 2021 by sinisterrkid