[Game Update] - 478900

[Mike23Ua]

18 minutes ago, KeshS said:

Truth be told, if the cheese method (pillars) was patched instead of skilled method and people started compaining, there would be a flood of comments to "git gud". Any change to AG will result in a backlash.

You guys do know I killed this thing with as little as a couple stacks of Gunpowder/Slurtle Slime ignited from a safe distance with a fire staff and then finished him off with no shame whatsoever while wearing a Shelmet and Snurtle Shell Armor and just standing in front of it pressing attack/hide until it was dead right???

This Boss has no unique gameplay, it has nothing at all going for it whatsoever- it’s just a Rook/Hipopotamoose there’s nothing special about him at all.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Mike23Ua

[JazzyGames]

Lol Helicalpuma's 5-hit AG strategy is not a cheese method. I don't understand how that is even controversial.

[-Evelyn-]

Exploits are not always cheese

The devs specifically used the term "fixed" which means it was very clearly a bug not a feature

An exploit taking skill to execute does not magically turn it into a feature, it is still an exploit

Edited September 17, 2021 by -Evelyn-

[Yuuko]

39 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said:

I just don't understand who you're trying to benefit in this argument. One one side it's people saying it was nice and more stimulating the other way, and on the other it just sounds like a lot of uncalled-for "get gud-ing" on the basis that whatever the devs resolve is the correct way. If you actually enjoy the new way I'll be honeslty glad and interested in hearing you talk about your experience! (And I haven't tried the game myself since the patch), but otherwise, that line of thinking is just gonna tie a knot on itself if the devs go back on their decision, since it's in their best interest that the game is, indeed, nice and more stimulating.

My point is that all of this "skilled play" was really just exploiting a buggy ai.  Finding out you can deal extra hits to a boss due to buggy ai is the same as finding out you can get it stuck on the geometry.  Sure one is more difficult than the other, but an exploit that is difficult to pull off is still an exploit - just because the reward is only a few extra hits doesn't make it any less cheese.

They can try to claim they're all legit players and hate cheese all they want, but here it is - a bug gets fixed and they all want it put back in b/c they like to exploit it.

All week since Wanda people have been on about hitstun being OP and now that its largely removed those same ppl are listing off the monsters they have to fight differently because they can't stun-lock them anymore lol

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[JazzyGames]

25 minutes ago, -Evelyn- said:

An exploit taking skill to execute does not magically turn it into a feature, it is still an exploit

That's fair, but a strategy that utilizes these mechanics does not automatically become easy if the mechanics are unintended. It is such a non-equivalency putting this strategy in the same category of challenge as standing behind a pillar and holding F.

It should also be noted that the ability to get in a few extra hits with AG is not the same problem as being able to literally swing at AG until he dies, which was what the alarming clock was able to do before this update.

Edited September 17, 2021 by JazzyGames

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

That's fair, but a strategy that utilizes these mechanics does not automatically become easy if the mechanics are unintended. It is such a non-equivalency putting this strategy in the same category of challenge as standing behind a pillar and holding F.

Except they are in the same category.  An exploit that takes skill can be a way to show off your skill, but its still an exploit.  People are literally asking for a bug fix to be reverted because they enjoyed exploiting it.  If pillar collision were removed, I think the conversation would be a lot more harsh against anyone who asked for it to be reverted.

ps - Walter can still slingshot stun the AG.  It will still stop its charge if it takes damage.  This fix was a buggy ai that made the AG just sit there for an extra moment before going into the next charge.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[JazzyGames]

33 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Except they are in the same category.  An exploit that takes skill can be a way to show off your skill, but its still an exploit.  People are literally asking for a bug fix to be reverted because they enjoyed exploiting it.

If you are going to insist that utilizing a mechanic to get a few extra hits in per charge is just as easy as standing behind a pillar and holding F, then I can comfortably agree to disagree.

But honestly if that's your criteria here then I believe you still don't understand Guille's issue. And frankly, I think it's unfair to accuse him of hypocrisy because he doesn't like seeing the disappearance of a strategy that actually makes the fight more dynamic, more challenging, and less monotonous.

Edited September 17, 2021 by JazzyGames

[Terra B Welch]

I'd also like to see walrus being stunlocked being brought back, walrus not being stunlockable I feel only just adds tedium to killing walrus.

[Mr.Tarunio]

I think everyone needs to chill and wait for the devs decision.

 

[sinisterrkid]

Let's not get lost in discussing semantics.

[DaZoul]

3 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

I'd also like to see walrus being stunlocked being brought back, walrus not being stunlockable I feel only just adds tedium to killing walrus.

excuse me? That's gone? You can't stunlock Tusk anymore? Seriously?

[Terra B Welch]

Just now, DaZoul said:

excuse me? That's gone? You can't stunlock Tusk anymore? Seriously?

apparently not. No eyed deers are the same

Edited September 17, 2021 by Terra B Welch

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

If you are going to insist that standing behind a pillar and holding F is just as easy as utilizing a mechanic to get a few extra hits in per charge, then I can comfortably agree to disagree.

But honestly if that's your criteria here then I believe you still don't understand Guille's issue. And frankly, I think it's unfair to accuse him of hypocrisy because he doesn't like seeing the disappearance of a strategy that actually makes the fight more dynamic, more challenging, and less monotonous.

No matter how difficult it was to exploit, that's what it was.  An exploit.  Ppl keep telling Klei to fix exploits and then whine when their exploit gets fixed lol  The denial is extreme here, its great.  All week people were complaining about stunlock because of Wanda, and now they're listing mobs they want stunlock put back on b/c they have been exploiting it this entire time lol

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[Mike23Ua]

4 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

apparently not. No eyed deers are the same

Yup tell me about it, my food scrambled away into the Darkness forever and I never saw her again.. I died shortly afterwards- dumb deer.. I hope it fell in the ocean & drown or something.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Mike23Ua

[Guille6785]

13 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

It wasn't that long ago they changed fire spreading and Guille was all about "get good" and how Klei was just fixing their game lol

I never said this, in fact I said the complete opposite (I heavily disliked that they patched it), please stop putting words in my mouth

Edited September 17, 2021 by Guille6785

[Terra B Welch]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

No matter how difficult it was to exploit, that's what it was.  An exploit.  Ppl keep telling Klei to fix exploits and then whine when their exploit gets fixed lol  The denial is extreme here, its great.  All week people were complaining about stunlock because of Wanda, and now they're listing mobs they want stunlock put back on b/c they have been exploiting it this entire time lol

Will you just give up and accept that even klei makes mistakes already?

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Yup tell me about it, my food scrambled away into the Darkness forever and I never saw her again.. I died shortly afterwards- dumb deer.. I hope it feel in the ocean & drown or something.

If you want a bit of a list of mobs affected, this bug report mentions a few.

 

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I never said this, in fact I said the complete opposite (I heavily disliked that they pacthed it), please stop putting words in my mouth

You're right - that wasn't you.  Sorry on that one.  You were against that change.

4 minutes ago, Terra B Welch said:

Will you just give up and accept that even klei makes mistakes already?

Klei can do what they want.  If they want to remove pillars, rework AG, or even reverse this patch to put the AG ai bug and stunlock back into the game I'm okay with that.  This is a conversation for the community who continually dumps shade on cheese strats now asking for their cheese to be put back in lol

ppl literally defending one cheese while decrying the other in here lol

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[Mike23Ua]

I honestly think with all the stuff it broke… it would probably just be better to remove Wanda’s weapon altogether & revert the changes back. Her kit was already pretty Great with just teleportation, healing clocks and being able to revive people at their dead skeletons. But that’s just my opinion.. obviously not everyone’s going to feel the same way..

I just feel like some mobs were designed with Stun-locking them as a core part of their design, and these recent changes clearly broke that. Stupid deer… x_X

[Yuuko]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I honestly think with all the stuff it broke… it would probably just be better to remove Wanda’s weapon altogether & revert the changes back. Her kit was already pretty Great with just teleportation, healing clocks and being able to revive people at their dead skeletons. But that’s just my opinion.. obviously not everyone’s going to feel the same way..

I just feel like some mobs were designed with Stun-locking them as a core part of their design, and these recent changes clearly broke that. Stupid deer… x_X

The range on Wanda's weapon smooths out the awkwardness of her backstep watch.  And without the damage reward with her weapon the entire health / age thing and risk / reward game play goes out the window.  Taking away her weapon kinda mucks up her kit - unless you don't use her combat perks in which case, why pick Wanda?  Teleporting is great, but why teleport *you* there if you're just Wilson?

The hit stun was too prevalent with her whip, but removing Wanda or her whip doesn't solve the problem.  It was always possible with a cat o 3 tails, and even with melee weapons - hence everyone asking for reverts here.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[FreyaMaluk]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I honestly think with all the stuff it broke… it would probably just be better to remove Wanda’s weapon altogether & revert the changes back. Her kit was already pretty Great with just teleportation, healing clocks and being able to revive people at their dead skeletons. But that’s just my opinion.. obviously not everyone’s going to feel the same way..

I just feel like some mobs were designed with Stun-locking them as a core part of their design, and these recent changes clearly broke that. Stupid deer… x_X

Remove Wanda's weapon? 

I can't... Omg.. 

[sinisterrkid]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Klei can do what they want.  If they want to remove pillars, rework AG, or even reverse this patch to put the AG ai bug and stunlock back into the game I'm okay with that.  This is a conversation for the community who continually dumps shade on cheese strats now asking for their cheese to be put back in lol

That's okay, but with this campaign I have seen you bother people who I know to be super chill and expressly okay with people playing how they want.

[HowlVoid]

30 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Mike, please

Don't- let's no bring Wanda into this.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

An exploit that takes skill can be a way to show off your skill, but its still an exploit

That is true, but that

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

People are literally asking for a bug fix to be reverted because they enjoyed exploiting it

I'm not so sure about. People enjoyed feeling of reward for their skill, and usually that feeling is a thing people play (video)games for. This fix lowered not only rewards (now one needs more time, as well as resources gained-resources put ratio being now lower), but skill ceiling for the fights (AG fight was influenced the most), and at this point I would like to ask: does the fact, that these strategies weren't intented, matter more, than enjoyment they brought? In other words, should we consider this kind of exploit something that needs to be removed, while this exploit achieves what games usually are meant to achieve better, than intended behaviour?

Not to mention random nature of AG loot: for all your efforts (now fight is even longer and thus more tedious than before) you can get a lot of thulecite, star caller/lazy explorer, green gems; but also you can get... thulecite suit, 1 yellow and 1 purple gem. And now it's not only about random nature of disappointing loot, but enjoyment of fight itself that is gone for a lot of people.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Pig Princess

[Mike23Ua]

47 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The range on Wanda's weapon smooths out the awkwardness of her backstep watch.  And without the damage reward with her weapon the entire health / age thing and risk / reward game play goes out the window.  Taking away her weapon kinda mucks up her kit - unless you don't use her combat perks in which case, why pick Wanda?  Teleporting is great, but why teleport *you* there if you're just Wilson?

The hit stun was too prevalent with her whip, but removing Wanda or her whip doesn't solve the problem.  It was always possible with a cat o 3 tails, and even with melee weapons - hence everyone asking for reverts here.

I’ve never actually USED this back step watch for anything other than novelty and novelty ONLY (because things like properly using Wortox’s soul hops, Wanda’s watches or Wheelers Dodges on an Xbox Controller during actual Combat situations is more trouble than they’re worth and it’s probably easier just to hit a few times, move out the way hit a few more times move out the way etc) and if you must ask WHY.. it’s because these abilities have a pre-determined locked in place location/distance your going to travel to: You can’t shorten or lengthen the distance in which Wortox hops- I haven’t bothered trying to do much of anything with Wanda’s watch because it appears to only function in reverse of Wortox’s soul hop (it records a short distance shes walked away and then when the watch is actually used- it warps her back to the previous save point) probably easier to use than Wortox/Wheeler BUT… I’ve only Ever used it to do something like chase shadow hands away from my campfire and blink myself back, or to pass a cave entrance during summer, start overheating and use it to warp back to the caves entrance. As far as using it in actual COMBAT your going to get hit trying and it’s actually better to just get armor and football helmet and stand in front of whatever your fighting hitting it/dodging till it’s dead.

But my original point still stands: If the reason all these changes were made was because of Wanda’s exclusive weapon, Removing her exclusive weapon and just letting her continue to use Darkswords or something.. would solve way more problem and probably significantly faster- then having to manually go back through and re-code No Eyed Deer/ MacTusk etc to be able to be stun locked in place, their natural running away from you A.I. makes Stun-Locking them the only method (besides ranged combat or continuously chasing them) that works. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Mike23Ua

[Yuuko]

5 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

That is true, but that

I'm not so sure about. People enjoyed feeling of reward for their skill, and usually that feeling is a thing people play (video)games for. This fix lowered not only rewards (now one needs more time and resources to fight particular mob), but skill ceiling for the fights (AG fight was influenced the most), and at this point I would like to ask: does the fact, that these strategies weren't intented, matter more, than enjoyment they brought? In other words, should we consider this kind of exploit something that needs to be removed while this exploit achieves what games usually are meant to achieve better, than intended behaviour?

Not to mention random nature of AG loot: for all your efforts (now fight is even longer and thus more tedious than before) you can get a lot of thulecite, star caller/lazy explorer, green gems; but also you can get... thulecite suit, 1 yellow and 1 purple gem. And now it's not only about random nature of disappointing loot, but enjoyment of fight itself that is gone for a lot of people.

Unfortunately for the simple creature that is AG - the fight is what it is.  It always has been a glorified rook fight.  Anyone who thinks its something more is deluding themselves lol.  There are several ways to cheese the fight all together, but this is still just a cheese strat to get more damage output.  All cheese strats give the player a reward for being familiar with the game, even getting the rook blocked off with the pillar gives a player that sense of reward for playing a certain way.

This was a bug though.  You can see it in the video shared detailing the technique.  If you're positioned right the AG doesn't go straight into a charge, but rather just stands there an extra moment staring blankly at you.  This could be exploited to last the entire fight having the same result of using a pillar - just hold F until he dies.

The bug got fixed.  It killed off a technique that players enjoyed using, but was bug exploitation no matter how much they want to deny it.  As a person who freely uses cheese I don't enjoy seeing these things removed from the game, but I also know its not going to be added back lol.  They didn't add mossling egg bug back, but they did add great tree trunks which I believe was their response to the feedback from that bug fix.  Will they revert the AG to add its buggy ai back in?  Doubtful.  It was a bug.  Similarly the hit stun was way too easy to exploit on many mobs so I think that is done and gone too.  Will Klei add something back in to compensate?  I believe so.  Klei has done a pretty good job with the game so far, so I trust them.

The feedback is good and I'm with people on their ideas to rework AG etc - my drama is just that this is cheese, this is bug exploitation.  ppl denying that are just lying to themselves.  Klei didn't make a mistake when they removed it, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't revisit why people liked it the way it was.