[Game Update] - 478900

[ScottHansen]

We will be making some changes to the new stun-lock mechanics to help with most of the creatures that have been called out.
As for the Ancient Guardian, we are aware that its fight is not in a good state. 

Thank you for your patience and being so passionate about the game.

[Yuuko]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’ve never actually USED this back step watch for anything other than novelty and novelty ONLY (because things like properly using Wortox’s soul hops, Wanda’s watches or Wheelers Dodges on an Xbox Controller during actual Combat situations is more trouble than they’re worth and it’s probably easier just to hit a few times, move out the way hit a few more times move out the way etc) and if you must ask WHY.. it’s because these abilities have a pre-determined locked in place location/distance your going to travel to: You can’t shorten or lengthen the distance in which Wortox hops- I haven’t bothered trying to do much of anything with Wanda’s watch because it appears to only function in reverse of Wortox’s soul hop (it records a short distance shes walked away and then when the watch is actually used- it warps her back to the previous save point) probably easier to use than Wortox/Wheeler BUT… I’ve only Ever used it to do something like chase shadow hands away from my campfire and blink myself back, or to pass a cave entrance during summer, start overheating and use it to warp back to the caves entrance. As far as using it in actual COMBAT your going to get hit trying and it’s actually better to just get armor and football helmet and stand in front of whatever your fighting hitting it/dodging till it’s dead.

The backstep watch would work exactly on console as it does on pc.  Its ports you back to where you were a certain number of steps ago.  Its quite useful in dodging, and Wanda probably has the easiest 0 damage Dragon Fly kill in the game because of it.  The backstep watch distance is shortened when you're older, so that in elder form you're only porting back about a tile.  Which is great if you have the range of a whip lol  Which is why they work so well together.

imo - if you haven't used it a lot then give it a chance..  idk if you usually do a lot of technical fighting in DST or not, I just know you love gunpowder lol but Wanda really comes alive when you put the backstep watch to work.  Its what enables you to play her elder form and utilize the damage increases that come along with it.

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

But my original point still stands: If the reason all these changes were made was because of Wanda’s exclusive weapon, Removing her exclusive weapon and just letting her continue to use Darkswords or something.. would solve way more problem and probably significantly faster- then having to manually go back through and re-code No Eyed Deer/ MacTusk etc to be able to be stun locked in place, their natural running away from you A.I. makes Stun-Locking them the only method (besides ranged combat or continuously chasing them) that works. 

The thing is - hitstun was there without her watch.  Her watch highlighted the problems with stun locking mobs, but the problems were there.  You could craft a cat o 3 tails, or even just position and time your attacks right and stun lock many enemies.  Since Klei removed it, its better they leave it off and give us a more purposefully built crowd control system to deal with mobs.

[HowlVoid]

13 minutes ago, ScottHansen said:

.

Thank you for being patient with us!

We get a little feisty but we mean well. 

Lol

[Mike23Ua]

I just don’t want the things that always run away to run away if I sneak up on them.

For comparison- Rabbits and Gobblers always run away from you but bait them with something and they’ll come to you.

MacTusks & No-Eyed Deer & Grass Gecko as well to the best of my knowledge only run Away from you, you can’t bait them in.

Though an update where I can make like a hay bale and lure the deer to me would be pretty darn cool.

Not sure about MacTusks- I hate those guys!

[sinisterrkid]

40 minutes ago, ScottHansen said:

We will be making some changes to the new stun-lock mechanics to help with most of the creatures that have been called out.
As for the Ancient Guardian, we are aware that its fight is not in a good state. 

Thank you for your patience and being so passionate about the game.

Looking forward to it! The thing is, seeing these overarching mechanics of the game being tweaked and changed is really exciting, whether I like the initial change or not. (Gonna hunt some MacTusks right now and see for myself ) 

[Terra B Welch]

50 minutes ago, ScottHansen said:

We will be making some changes to the new stun-lock mechanics to help with most of the creatures that have been called out.
As for the Ancient Guardian, we are aware that its fight is not in a good state. 

Thank you for your patience and being so passionate about the game.

Maybe for now there could be a pause between AG's charges? Long enough to allow more then just one hit between charges.

[Pig Princess]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Unfortunately for the simple creature that is AG - the fight is what it is.  It always has been a glorified rook fight

Totally agree there, but even though AG was like that since vanilla, that doesn't mean it should stay that way. I'm relieved to see developers acknowledge that problem, since I myself really like his theme, importance to lore and sad story that one can guess based on what one sees now (in DS AG is the last obstacle before sacred biome - heart of the city of the ancients): last guardian faithful to his duty, even after all this time, even after there is nobody to protect anymore, even though he is likely don't understand what's going on and what has already happened. He is also the only survivior aside from monkeys (clockworks are not living things). I would like to be able to battle him in completely fair fight for sentimental reasons.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

If you're positioned right the AG doesn't go straight into a charge, but rather just stands there an extra moment staring blankly at you

 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

This could be exploited to last the entire fight having the same result of using a pillar - just hold F until he dies

I can't agree with this for 2 reasons:

1. Skill actually does matter and it's not the same to kill him with 4-5 hits technique and hold F with axe behind pillar the entire time;

2. Sence of reward for 2 mentioned strategies is not the same for a lot of people. e.i. there are a lot of ones me included who feel rewarded for the 4-5 hits strategy, but don't feel that way for just holding F behind pillar. If you feel it's the same - good for you, but that's only your perspective, and there are a lot of people who feel differently. People are different, and sometimes it's just impossible to agree in terms of tastes, which is ok.

I just hope we never get to the point when one of us or more would think: "there are only 2 kinds of tastes: mine and incorrect/irrelevant". Also it's Klei's game after all, so the final decisions are up to them.

Edit: about difference in reward feeling. If one doesn't like the fight, but still want to engage with content and have fun, there are several options: write a mod (solution is not available for console players), complain endlessly and don't have fun, find a way to have fun. This 4-5-hit strategy was the way people changed long and repetitive fight into something requiring attention, practice and less time-consuming. I think it's clever solution, especially for those who can't write/use mods.

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Will they revert the AG to add its buggy ai back in?  Doubtful.

 

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Will Klei add something back in to compensate?  I believe so

I also feel like what is done is done, and I'd prefer game to develop and move forward with consideration of feedback. I'm looking forward to AG rework, solution for mac tusk, deers and the like.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Pig Princess

[JazzyGames]

Seriously though, How amazing would it be if this little hotfix actually inspired a complete AG rework?

[Yuuko]

54 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

1. Skill actually does matter and it's not the same to kill him with 4-5 hits technique and hold F with axe behind pillar the entire time;

I mean the exploit that caused the AG to let you get 2-3 more hits could also enable you to hold F and just kill him in that state without a pillar.  It would not just enable 4-5 hits, but infinite hits.  Buggy ai is buggy, who figured ? lol

(The video is Wanda, anyone could do this with a cat o 3 tails.  The magic starts at 57 seconds)

 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Shosuko

[lakhnish]

@Shosuko Damn, talk about a broken record; let it go already.

What is your end goal? To just be toxic? Cause you've somehow manged to reach the toxicity levels of the ppl you are complaining about.

People can learn to accept and appreciate how other people like to play the game, but instead of trying to get to that point, you just keep going in the opposite direction and dividing people cause you're angry.

Klei listens to the community, they make changes where they see fit and work in the long-term of the game; every update they do is proof of that. When the time comes, let Klei do what they do best cause they have been on a roll for a long while now.

[Pig Princess]

@Shosuko, yes, with Wanda it's just holding F, but I was refering to 4-5 hits in AG fight with regular weapon (not a whip-type, simple melee weapon), and with recent bugfix not only alarming clock-involving strategy (bug, exploit) was fixed, but this fight:

was made impossible to reproduce. And yes, I see why it was possible to land extra hits: because AG didn't charge right away. But my points still stand. I also think thing with alarming clock had to be removed.

@lakhnish, it doesn't look toxic to me, more like @Shosuko makes sure we are takling about the same thing and there is no misunderstanding.

[Yuuko]

8 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

@Shosuko, yes, with Wanda it's just holding F, but I was refering to 4-5 hits in AG fight with regular weapon (not a whip-type, simple melee weapon), and with recent bugfix not only alarming clock-involving strategy (bug, exploit) was fixed, but this fight:

was made impossible to reproduce. And yes, I see why it was possible to land extra hits: because AG didn't charge right away. But my points still stand. I also think thing with alarming clock had to be removed.

@lakhnish, it doesn't look toxic to me, more like @Shosuko makes sure we are takling about the same thing and there is no misunderstanding.

Its the same bug though.  Its a bug where AG would stop attacking and just stand there.  With melee weapon he would aggro again, probably because the bug is effected by your distance.  I haven't played with it extensively (and can't now lol.)  I think its just the extra range of the whip that keeps him in that state - but its the same bug with whip and just hold F.  Which is my point here - I like cheese, exploiting ai, bugs and glitches, etc.  But I know they get patched, and you always gotta be ready for that.  Some exploits take a LOT of skill to execute, but that doesn't make them any more "valid" if the underlying bug gets patched :\ 

Klei isn't likely to revert a bug back into the game.  The better focus is to just press for an AG rework.  If the fight sucks, and only bugs / glitches make it fun, then the fight sucks and we should focus on that.  Fortunately Klei says its on their radar.  I doubt the priority is high, but what we got is what we got.  If you don't have the patience for the full fight you'll have to decide how much cheese you're willing to employ.  If you want no cheese then pick Wolfgang or Wanda, use a Warly dish and have at it.  These speed up the fight a lot more than getting a few extra hits in, although combining them is obviously the most effective.  Otherwise I believe you can still stun lock him with the right attack speed because his charge will still be halted by damage - that wasn't a bug, that was intended.  For that reason you can still use Walter in the fight.

18 minutes ago, lakhnish said:

@Shosuko Damn, talk about a broken record; let it go already.

What is your end goal? To just be toxic? Cause you've somehow manged to reach the toxicity levels of the ppl you are complaining about.

People can learn to accept and appreciate how other people like to play the game, but instead of trying to get to that point, you just keep going in the opposite direction and dividing people cause you're angry.

Klei listens to the community, they make changes where they see fit and work in the long-term of the game; every update they do is proof of that. When the time comes, let Klei do what they do best cause they have been on a roll for a long while now.

Eh - I'll give you this, after my first post or two I definitely got a bit dickish.  This was mostly projection because the "SuPeR sKiLl" crowd likes to drop their own dickish "git gud" any time a cheese strat is nerfed, yet here we are - with a bug fix - and that crowd doesn't wanna "git gud," they want their exploit put back in the game lol  But that only lasted a few posts.

This was a bug exploit.  If you think this took anything away from your fight, then you were exploiting a bug.  Maybe you defend this exploit because its more difficult to pull off, but that doesn't magically make it "legit."  As in the Wanda video I linked - the hole goes deeper than just 2 extra hits each charge...  Maybe people don't know, or maybe they aren't being honest about that...  But dickishness aside that is what I'm talking about.

Bug fixes are good - they make the game experience more consistent, and ensure the devs have control over what we can expect from any given scenario.  It sucks to lose a tech to a bug fix, just like it sucks when a rework changes up something you liked about a character.  We can only trust Klei is trying to make DST the best game they can, and I don't argue against that.  This conversation is entirely with the community who thinks this buggy ai was a bad change because they liked exploiting it during this fight, while denying they were exploiting a bug, or hide behind "mah skilz" as if that's a reason to leave the game in a broken state...

[HowlVoid]

Whatever the case I hope that Klei reworks AG.

The AG fight is miserable for everyone that has to fight it and whether or not the past strat is an exploit or not is moot (and subjective). The problem I have with it is that not everyone can pull it off. 

As much as I liked to, I can't spawn it in and practice the fight and I only encounter him every dozen hours or so. I agree that the strategy everyone is mentioning makes the fight actually enjoyable, but can we make it enjoyable for everyone? I want an enjoyable fight too, so I'd really appreciate more than just an ai change.

[minespatch]

6 hours ago, ScottHansen said:

As for the Ancient Guardian, we are aware that its fight is not in a good state.

Love how the devs are being transparent. They're understanding people.

 

[Cassielu]

Uh, I want talk about the changes to Celestial Champion P3 in this update. Without the easy Stun-lock, CC combat becomes much more difficult, as its "escape" works more effectively, and you can no longer keep it by your side and defeat it as a Deerclops with slower attack, attempts to distance from you and keep you away ability (trap/gestalt).

I'm not complaining about harder fight. I'm saying it's a positive change. Its greater ability to "escape" makes its other abilities more meaningful. The whole theme of the battle becomes more prominent. CC's seemingly unrelated actions are now a complete one-two punch.

(Also, I always feel CC is a bit weak compared to AF, a bit of buff is definitely appropriate.)

I sincerely hope that this change to CC, or a similar adjustment, can be retained. This definitely makes CC's fight better.

 

 

[Spino43]

The AG itself is a problem. Like others have pointed out it's a giant flesh Rook. Rooks themselves are annoying enemies to fight 1 on 1. They are very handy in chopping trees, smashing clockwork piles, and well, killing everything around them. But when fighting alone you have two options:

Kiting, you can only hit two/three times before needing to dodge, which is annoying considering you have to chase after it, AG doesn't run as far as them but it runs way faster.

Tanking, it deals 45 damage, and with 900hp it's a viable way to tank them, and a lot of times you can stunlock them too.

But AG? It deals a whopping 100 damage per charge, not to mention an uppercut that is extremely fast and sometimes hard to predict, so tanking isn't viable, and kiting like others have said is very long and boring thanks to the 10000hp pool. With the recent AI change it just makes it worse.

It needs a rework, because as of it now AG is basically Crab King of the Ruins, boring to fight, and most people only fight it to get the RNG loot and the key to fight Ancient Fuelweaver.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Spino43

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

RNG loot

That need a look too. The lasts AGs loots i got were things like gears, red gems, fragments, fire staffs...

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

That need a look too. The lasts AGs loots i got were things like gears, red gems, fragments, fire staffs...

It must be really grinding your gears.

[Captain_Rage]

3 hours ago, Spino43 said:

Kiting, you can only hit two/three times before needing to dodge, which is annoying considering you have to chase after it, AG doesn't run as far as them but it runs way faster.

Except that you don't have to chase after it by any means. You can dodge and wait for it to come back. If you position yourself slightly farther than its charging distance it will stop in front of you.

Chasing after bosses is not in the player's favor, generally. Let them engage, dodge according to their attack pattern and rely on riposting.

[Flit]

This build and other recent builds don't appear in https://s3.amazonaws.com/dstbuilds/builds.json.

Is that still being updated or is there another method to get the current build?

[Fifftysixkl]

Is it a bug? Why the spider den that is placed on a boat can't be upgraded?https://youtu.be/KXBk2liPTEg

[Just-guy]

6 hours ago, Fifftysixkl said:

Is it a bug? Why the spider den that is placed on a boat can't be upgraded?https://youtu.be/KXBk2liPTEg

They changed it a while ago to prevent mass farming silk without having to deal with spiders.

[FreyaMaluk]

On 9/18/2021 at 12:40 AM, JazzyGames said:

Seriously though, How amazing would it be if this little hotfix actually inspired a complete AG rework?

we need this now!!
I mean we have been asking for this for a while now.. AG needs some urgent love!

[Mike23Ua]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:36 AM, Just-guy said:

They changed it a while ago to prevent mass farming silk without having to deal with spiders.

But people can still place Meatbulb on boat and not have to deal with eye plants?? Hmm.. okay.