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So, what is left for cooling?


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4 minutes ago, axxionx12 said:

Normally I would agree with you on the single player argument, but this fixed output was far too strong when the purpose of the sieve is to convert PW to water. Not delete immense amounts of heat.

A while back, I built a compact heat deleting system a while back that trivialized heat management more than I can imagine is intended. I didn't end up rebuilding it in my next playthrough.

But what you are not considering is the average player who does not want to sink 500 hours into the game to get competent enough to see good progress. And like @Gurgel said, it removes options for builds which decreases the fun of experimenting.

It's rather obvious that this would be a contentious issue. How hard would it have been to code it as a game option that was player selectable?

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1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

The true problem is not the minimum but it no longer resetting hot water to 40. We got enough tools to handle 40, especially when we got colder polluted water. The challenge begins when we get hot pwater. It is possible to handle it.

 

1 hour ago, nivodeus said:

So the way to cool thngs now are,

  • Ice maker (good and cheap early game but not that efficient i think, but it'll do) ,
  • AETN (which is far away unless you got ice biome near your starting base, meaning this wont be viable till late mid game)
  • Ice Fan?
  • Aquatuner (I personally detest this machine. For some reason it heats up really fast,and it consume 1,2 KW of power, an absolute power user, and to minimine the heat, we would normally pair it with steam turbine, for the sake of efficiency and heat deletion.

As much as I can understand that we shldnt have anything in the game that can magically remove heat, except AETN and WW, even then those two require a resource and even more now for WW. 

Or I'll just let my colony stay at hot 40 degree till i find a cold biome to mitigate it with ice. :D

Interesting discussion. When I first arrived at this thread, I was opposed to the Water Sieve changes like many people here. But I think these two posts helped me change my mind. It's a shame the Water Sieve solution isn't what it used to be. But this does seem to force us to use a wider range of tools in the early to mid-game.

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4 hours ago, Gurgel said:

I see the nerved WWs, the nerved Ice Maker and the ATENs. Anything else requires you to heat something up and dispose of it somewhere. That assumes you have something you can heat up ans somewhere you can dispose of it.

Seems to me they are massively overdoing this. 

You do have the option to start with a cold world, that way your fighting to stay warm vs stay cool. It has so many + and a few -, like no wild plants grow (except in warm spots) but slimlung and food poisoning dont last very long in cold :D

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I've never used fixed output cooling and I'm happy with steam turbines. To me they are the only method worth using at all now. But my personal opinion is it would be nicer for variety in the early game if both wild wheezewort and the ice maker deletion were buffed by a factor of about four. I find them rather paltry even for small applications.

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21 minutes ago, Theoretician said:

But this does seem to force us to use a wider range of tools in the early to mid-game.

I liked the changes but... I mean, there are no tools left. The question remains: what is left for cooling?

The change isn't bad. But the recent change plus all the nerf to the ealy-mid game tools look pretty bad to me

I only see frozen core, steam turbine and space as options. They are fun but less appealing to me than the usual early exploration of the map for the valuable and limited worts. Was it easy? Yes. Was it fun? YES! Building steam turbine set-up for cooling is easy? Not in the first attempts. Is it fun? Sometimes... maybe... for some.

I am ok with crazy heat, but give more tools and deal.


 

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Cool slush geysers are a reasonable form of cooling. Attached is an example of a cooling loop for water and oxygen off of a cool slush geyser. Being able to control the input temperatures of water and oxygen into the main base allows me to keep my whole place at a consistent temperature. The screenshot is from the current beta at cycle 296, Arboria map. 

cool_slush.jpg

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The change also affects the whole game progress. Steam turbine setup is basically power and steel, so the game becomes scripted as a whole - get some oxygen and food, get power, now all of your issues can be solved with throwing power on it. Earlier on you could at least try to build something different, now you are fixed on turbines, so fixed to power and steel. Not to mention that the lack of gold contributes to the strength with which it's imposed now.

Also it does feel like designers are pushing gamers from building contraptions to using proper buildings. It is more friendly for newcomers, but does it make the game more fun?

And of course, for consistency Klei should not forget to remove petroleum generators cooling or we might get the new meta that would need fixing if the principle above is indeed in effect.

And I do not see how this makes the game harder if anything. I have not played most of the maps, so I might be completely wrong for some of them, but I do not see how rushing for turbine and aquatuner is harder or takes more cycles than working around decent cooling with a sieve.

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I'm also completely in favor of the change. There are still a bunch of cooling options (although I think wws should use less phosphorite) and dumping heat in other biomes or insulating parts of your base remain 100% viable.

Sorry klei removed your cycle 5 cooling loop, but there has to be some difficulty to the game. Or you could also play in no sweat.

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I like all the changes, heat was way to easy to deal with. Steam turbine + aquatuner still is overpowered. You can heat hydrogen / petroleum and burn it in generators. You can build your power / oxygen production in cold biomes and block off hot parts of the map.

You can heat a gas and vent it into space. Heat CO2, feed it to slicksters. Dump heat into a liquid, fill an insulated box and deal with it later. The printing pods prints cold stuff. 

Some critters can be used to delete heat. Lots of stuff still has fixed output temps you can use. Morbs, critters hatching, gulp fish output etc.. 

 

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@Mullematsch

Steam turbine is the only remaining infinitely expandable and renewable power deletion tool.

Using cold biomes is very temporary. It's not really destroying the heat, just moving it, same as dealing with it later, aka not dealing with it. 

Insulation isn't the problem. All of us are already insulating our base from outside heat. It's the generated heat that needs to be removed.

I can only destroy so much material just to delete heat before I run out of material. Gas carries approximately 0 heat/tile. You'd need a thermium aquatuner to heat it enough to be worth it. Petroleum generators on the other hand may work because it returns more water than you used for the oil well and it still resets the heat (until they nerf it). However since I bet few of us has much experience with it on a large scale I would like to know how viable this really is on that scale. Lets say if you didn't use steam engines could this really cool your base considering the number of oil wells is limited?

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9 hours ago, axxionx12 said:

Normally I would agree with you on the single player argument, but this fixed output was far too strong when the purpose of the sieve is to convert PW to water. Not delete immense amounts of heat.

A while back, I built a compact heat deleting system a while back that trivialized heat management more than I can imagine is intended. I didn't end up rebuilding it in my next playthrough.

Can You explain this to me?

We have 95° polluted water, it passes sieve and became 40° water. You consider this -55° too strong, and You think purpose of sieve is water cleaning, not deletion of heat. Am I right?

We have -15° polluted water, it passes sieve and became 40° water.

You consider this +55° perfectly OK, and You think purpose of sieve is adding heat, not just water cleaning, and call objecting people just "vocal minority".

Is it correct description of situation, from Your point of view, or do I miss something?

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31 minutes ago, Hedning said:

@Mullematsch

Steam turbine is the only remaining infinitely expandable and renewable power deletion tool.

Using cold biomes is very temporary. It's not really destroying the heat, just moving it, same as dealing with it later, aka not dealing with it. 

Insulation isn't the problem. All of us are already insulating our base from outside heat. It's the generated heat that needs to be removed.

I can only destroy so much material just to delete heat before I run out of material. Gas carries approximately 0 heat/tile. You'd need a thermium aquatuner to heat it enough to be worth it. Petroleum generators on the other hand may work because it returns more water than you used for the oil well and it still resets the heat (until they nerf it). However since I bet few of us has much experience with it on a large scale I would like to know how viable this really is on that scale. Lets say if you didn't use steam engines could this really cool your base considering the number of oil wells is limited?

If you build your power away from the base and use an AETN to cool down the Oxygen,  you will be set for a long time. I personally don't insulate my base at all and build electrolyzers in the middle of it. Max temperatures are ~50C till by cycle 400-500 I deal with it.

I haven't been using the sieve for heat deletion in a while, neither do I use AETN at all. Never In my life have I build a thermium aquatuner either.

You could for sure cool down your base using an oil well, generator loop but I just feel like a lot of people are too scared of heat. Dups can deal with reasonably high temperatures. I normally don't stress about heat at all and in mid game, there are lots of ways to deal it. 

Even without a turbine, just put an aquatuner in oil and boil it to petroleum. Pump it into a big insulted box and use that hot petroleum eventually for a sour gas boiler.

Maybe for new players, heat will be hard but I think that is okay. I have been recently learning RimWorld (great game) and got my ass kicked for 50h straight till I learned the basics - nothing wrong with that! :) 

 

 

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There is another way to "cool" your base: limit your heat generation. 

Is it worthwile to produce tons of refined metals when other materials might suffice too? 

Do you need that many batteries and transformers? The heat from those adds up. 

Is it wortwhile to stockpile tons of water needing condensing while your colony is still small?

Im not saying all can be prevented but being thoughtfull can stretch the time you have to get some permanent solution going.

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19 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

There is another way to "cool" your base: limit your heat generation. 

Is it worthwile to produce tons of refined metals when other materials might suffice too? 

The biggest sources of heat, by orders of magnitude, come from machines that normally don't produce much heat. The water sieve, electrolyzer and CO2 skimmer (ethanol distiller?) all produce output at a fixed minimum temperature. If a cold material enters, the temperature gets pumped up and the resulting heat production is off the charts. Most other heat sources are pennies and don't really matter. It's the big things that cook a colony.

 

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11 minutes ago, bobucles said:

The biggest sources of heat, by orders of magnitude, come from machines that normally don't produce much heat. The water sieve, electrolyzer and CO2 skimmer (ethanol distiller?) all produce output at a fixed minimum temperature. If a cold material enters, the temperature gets pumped up and the resulting heat production is off the charts. Most other heat sources are pennies and don't really matter. It's the big things that cook a colony.

 

Well two of the sources you just mentioned can be mitigated quite simply: heat from sieves and heat from skimmers. Just use insulated pipes in your loop and keep the distance between your toilets and sieve short. That gets most of your sieve usage covered. Just how often do you mass-sieve polluted water that is that cold? And then you can ask yourself the question: can i use the cold somewhere else first? 

I think a lot of people underestimate how much time they have before heat becomes an issue if you plan ahead.

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7 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

Well two of the sources you just mentioned can be mitigated quite simply: heat from sieves and heat from skimmers. Just use insulated pipes in your loop and keep the distance between your toilets and sieve short. That gets most of your sieve usage covered. Just how often do you mass-sieve polluted water that is that cold? And then you can ask yourself the question: can i use the cold somewhere else first? 

I think a lot of people underestimate how much time they have before heat becomes an issue if you plan ahead.

You are right. If we plan ahead, heat not became issue. Any player with couple years of experience can calculate 'beeline' way to just enough research, to start spawning aquatuner/turbine combo. But what about new players? And why make research tree with multiple branches, and after that punish players for not following One and Only Great Research Sequence?

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5 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

You are right. If we plan ahead, heat not became issue. Any player with couple years of experience can calculate 'beeline' way to just enough research, to start spawning aquatuner/turbine combo. But what about new players? And why make research tree with multiple branches, and after that punish players for not following One and Only Great Research Sequence?

The new guy argument does not hold water. The sieve was never described in game as a cooling solution. Nobody intuitively stumbles upon the cooling constructions based on it. I only found out about it through this forum and i dont think I'm far off if this is true for many of us.

It is intuitive though to separate your base into areas where heat matters and insulating critical areas from heat coming in. It is intuitive to use the buildings and plants described as coolers for that purpose.

Also my whole argument is that you have plenty of time to come up with a solution. You do not have to beeline for turbines. It just takes a bit of arranging and planning. Something you pick up through trial and error like everything else in this game.

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3 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

The new guy argument does not hold water. The sieve was never described in game as a cooling solution. Nobody intuitively stumbles upon the cooling constructions based on it. I only found out about it through this forum and i dont think I'm far off if this is true for many of us.

It is intuitive though to separate your base into areas where heat matters and insulating critical areas from heat coming in. It is intuitive to use the buildings and plants described as coolers for that purpose.

Also my whole argument is that you have plenty of time to come up with a solution. You do not have to beeline for turbines. It just takes a bit of arranging and planning. Something you pick up through trial and error like everything else in this game.

But warts and ice machine described in game as cooling devices. And they heavily nerfed too, isn't it?

And most important, sieve doesn't described in game as heating device, instantly heating just meld polluted ice to 40°.

Not heat from machines kills bases - fixed heat from sieve, skimmer and hydrolizer do it. 

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4 hours ago, Hedning said:

Steam turbine is the only remaining infinitely expandable and renewable power deletion tool.

Ummm... 

Wheezeworts still exist. And even in Farmed form, are both infinitely expandable and renewable. 

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27 minutes ago, nvzboy said:

The new guy argument does not hold water. The sieve was never described in game as a cooling solution. Nobody intuitively stumbles upon the cooling constructions based on it.

You grossly underestimate at least some of your fellow men. Sure, there are those that read the description and then stop thinking. But there are also people that verify the description and discover the other things a device can do. And, quite frankly, if you think something should do only what is obvious from its description, then you are playing the wrong game.

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15 hours ago, nivodeus said:

So the way to cool thngs now are,

  • Ice maker (good and cheap early game but not that efficient i think, but it'll do) ,
  • AETN (which is far away unless you got ice biome near your starting base, meaning this wont be viable till late mid game)
  • Ice Fan?
  • Aquatuner (I personally detest this machine. For some reason it heats up really fast,and it consume 1,2 KW of power, an absolute power user, and to minimine the heat, we would normally pair it with steam turbine, for the sake of efficiency and heat deletion.
  • Thermo regulators.  They're less efficient than aquatuners, but they consume less power and can be used to directly cool gasses before piping them into your base or via radiators.
  • Wheezeworts still work, even if they're not as OP as they used to be.  You can't rely on just them anymore, but they're fine as a stopgap or supplement to other cooling solutions.
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17 minutes ago, des06des said:

Construct with 80C debree a 40C walll....

Gurgel, I don’t mind if you don’t play anymore, WS was broken, too easy, this  is a good change for all, new and veteran players, the game can not evolve arround your preferences to play it.

That utterly arrogant comment does not even deserve a response. 

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Personally I've always felt that heat deletion in sieves was ridiculous. Some people view the mechanisms in game as abstract devices that convert inputs into outputs, with no real relation to their function or real-world equivalent. So what if a sieve outputs chocolate icecream and critter eggs alongside purifying liquids, right? It's just a game! The problem is that it is completely counter-intuitive, especially if you have some background in thermodynamics or at least know what a sieve is. Having a sieve be the most effective cooling solution is just utterly ludicrous.

At the same time however, with the wheezewort nerf we are now stuck with very few options for small-scale heat control in the early and mid game. What I would like to see is an un-nerfing of the wheezeworts to some extent, perhaps by significantly reducing their phosphorus intake so that a modest amount can be supported by a standard-sized drecko farm, and a buff to the cooling capability of wild wheezeworts, say from -75% to -50%, such that passive cooling can be achieved with only 2x the number of worts than before providing you put in some effort to farm wort seeds.

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