So, what is left for cooling?

[Yunru]

7 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

At the same time however, with the wheezewort nerf we are now stuck with very few options for small-scale heat control in the early and mid game. What I would like to see is an un-nerfing of the wheezeworts to some extent, perhaps by significantly reducing their phosphorus intake so that a modest amount can be supported by a standard-sized drecko farm, and a buff to the cooling capability of wild wheezeworts, say from -75% to -50%, such that passive cooling can be achieved with only 2x the number of worts than before providing you put in some effort to farm wort seeds.

Bah! They need to redo farming in general.

It makes no sense that a wild plant can be growing next to an identical plant that isn't just because one's in a farm tile and the other's in dirt.

If it was, say, 1/4 effective planted wild, 1/2 effective farmed with basic conditions met, and fully effective farmed with all conditions met, then the wheezewort nerf would only be half as much an issue.

[Prince Mandor]

27 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

The problem is that it is completely counter-intuitive, especially if you have some background in thermodynamics or at least know what a sieve is. Having a sieve be the most effective cooling solution is just utterly ludicrous.

But this is exactly what we have now. Sieve magically heating icy-cold polluted water to 40°, making it most efficient heating solution. And yes, it is counterintuitive. You just sieve 20° polluted water from lavatories through some 20° sand - and voila, you have your base at 40°C and you crops is withering

Before this "fix" we have device magically adding heat and magically removing heat. It worked both ways. It was ugly, and there was many requests  to remove fixed temp. But now magic cooling removed, but magic heating left in place. This is a thing most annoying

[Nightinggale]

1 hour ago, Yunru said:

Bah! They need to redo farming in general.

It makes no sense that a wild plant can be growing next to an identical plant that isn't just because one's in a farm tile and the other's in dirt.

If it was, say, 1/4 effective planted wild, 1/2 effective farmed with basic conditions met, and fully effective farmed with all conditions met, then the wheezewort nerf would only be half as much an issue.

I would make wild and domesticated plants the same as in by default they are all wild even if planted in farm tiles. What makes the difference is farm tiles allow applying elements. This means if you run out of water, your domestic plant will not stop growing, it will revert to being wild. It doesn't make sense to stop growth completely now that we can plant wild plants. The farm tiles should then have an on/off button for generating fertilizer delivery chores.

With that in place, the next question would be balance between wild and domestic. Right now adding fertilizer and water makes the plant grow 4 times faster. I'm not sure that's the correct number and I'm not sure it should be the same number for all plants.

[Gurgel]

53 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

Personally I've always felt that heat deletion in sieves was ridiculous. Some people view the mechanisms in game as abstract devices that convert inputs into outputs, with no real relation to their function or real-world equivalent. So what if a sieve outputs chocolate icecream and critter eggs alongside purifying liquids, right? It's just a game! The problem is that it is completely counter-intuitive, especially if you have some background in thermodynamics or at least know what a sieve is. Having a sieve be the most effective cooling solution is just utterly ludicrous.

Actually, it is not a problem that this is counter-intuitive. It is not a problem because it is a small number of fixed, predefined components. You just "suspend your disbelief", get to know the components and experiment with them. Sure, if they were doing "unrealistic" and then require you to take a 1 year course to understand the alternate physics, that would be a problem. But it is not, because it _is_ a game and its complexity is rater extremely lower than Physics (as known) in this shared illusion we call "physical reality". And that is why this approach works. Incidentally, "utterly ridiculous" is a positive quality in a game like this. Or have you missed how dupes behave?

57 minutes ago, Giltirn said:

At the same time however, with the wheezewort nerf we are now stuck with very few options for small-scale heat control in the early and mid game. 

That is the main problem I have with the current state. I would prefer if they had something new though, instead of just rolling back some changes. Of course, you can still do with this, that is not the issue. The issue is that there is less variety and less options. Fewer things to try out. The old WWs, for example, were not simple to use. But they gave you a lot of freedom to try different things. And they did not require constant, tedious "maintenance", which looks very much like make-work to me. Some games do that, giving the player useless tasks to stretch the "content". Whenever I see that in a review, it is an automated "don't buy" for me.

[axxionx12]

8 hours ago, Prince Mandor said:

Can You explain this to me?

We have 95° polluted water, it passes sieve and became 40° water. You consider this -55° too strong, and You think purpose of sieve is water cleaning, not deletion of heat. Am I right?

We have -15° polluted water, it passes sieve and became 40° water.

You consider this +55° perfectly OK, and You think purpose of sieve is adding heat, not just water cleaning, and call objecting people just "vocal minority".

Is it correct description of situation, from Your point of view, or do I miss something?

My point was more about the heat deletion than about adding heat. I care less about the added heat since heat generation is not an issue, heat deletion is. 

[gotnoface]

I personally don't care they "fixed" water sieve, actually I fully expect to see "fixed" petroleum and natgas generators so they don't cool outputs based on their temperature.

What I blame though is that it has been almost half a year since Klei has stopped addressing old issues in any capacity, instead try to introduce new mechanics and so the old problems like too much heat are left rotting somewhere in teh corner, even limiting our ways to deal with heat and NOT giving us any new tools to deal with those problems.

My bases used to be soo varied, now they are all destined to look the same with exactly the same beelined progress.

[Nebbie]

My issue is twofold:

1. We're punished for using cold inputs, getting magic heat addition. Previously, this was counterbalanced by the same temperature settings allowing for magic heat deletion with careful setup. In my opinion, it was cheaty to rely on this, but you could expect that there would be some incidental heat deletion so that overall things would be in somewhat of a balance while you figure out which approach you were going to take to truly deal with heat. Now, the punishment is there without the counterbalance.
2. This comes on the heels of the ice maker and wheezewort being nerfed to a ridiculous degree, making it questionable whether they're even worth going for versus rushing an endgame solution; is a base that doesn't rush steam turbines or petrolem generator heat removal even viable without Drecko ranching to supply wheezewort? The ice maker appears to be completely pointless now because it does the same net cooling as a wild wheezewort, but takes power. I've also heard that the ice fan negates the cooling effect of using the ice maker, which considering it uses dupe labor, makes me absolutely not want to ever build one (so why is it in the game at all?).

And what is a new player going to do? They're not going to realize for a long time that water sieves and such are crazy heat demons; they're probably going to assume they need to get every wheezewort they can and put ice fans and ice makers all over the base to delete heat, wasting all their dupes' time as eventually their cooling system gets overrun from them trying to help things by putting the chilly water into the sieves or electrolyzers. Meanwhile, experienced players are rushing steam turbines and completely ignoring early-game cooling systems aside of the occasional wheezewort or lucky AETN. I don't see where the fun comes in.

[pacovf]

Maybe a new thread should be made about the ice maker / ice fan specifically

[situpc]

11 hours ago, nvzboy said:

There is another way to "cool" your base: limit your heat generation.

So don't build lavatories, sinks, or showers. Got it. 

On 7/4/2019 at 6:02 PM, Sasza22 said:

It`s funny ho the minimum temperature is suddenly a problem when there is no top cap. When it was a fixed temperature everybody was fine with it being 40^oC.

With 2,583 posts are you honestly trying to say your impression is that everyone was fine with fixed outputs? We straight up lying now to justify our viewpoint?

[Sasza22]

4 minutes ago, situpc said:

With 2,583 posts are you honestly trying to say your impression is that everyone was fine with fixed outputs? We straight up lying now to justify our viewpoint?

I think i`ll stop commenting on this topic until people calm down. Yes people hated the fixed outputs. I hated it. But we were fine with it working this way for so long (for longer than it took to write 2583 posts) and didn`t expect a change. I find it funny how the minimal output is a problem when we have dealt with it for so long.

Anyway i`m hiding in my bomb shelter until the `storm is over.

[Kerd]

6 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

I think i`ll stop commenting on this topic until people calm down. Yes people hated the fixed outputs. I hated it. But we were fine with it working this way for so long (for longer than it took to write 2583 posts) and didn`t expect a change. I find it funny how the minimal output is a problem when we have dealt with it for so long.

Anyway i`m hiding in my bomb shelter until the `storm is over.

This feels very much like the abysallite changes.  When they were made it was the end of every colony... until people learned to play with the other tools and things were fine.

[bobucles]

44 minutes ago, situpc said:

So don't build lavatories, sinks, or showers. Got it. 

Plumbed bathrooms are optional, colonies can last a long time without them. Also they don't directly generate heat, the filtration process does that. Once a bathroom has an initial supply of water, the sieve will keep recycling it and the only heat input will come from the sieve itself. Excess warm water from the loop can be used however the colony sees fit.

[Gurgel]

15 minutes ago, bobucles said:

Plumbed bathrooms are optional, colonies can last a long time without them. Also they don't directly generate heat, the filtration process does that. Once a bathroom has an initial supply of water, the sieve will keep recycling it and the only heat input will come from the sieve itself. Excess warm water from the loop can be used however the colony sees fit.

In fact, for this loop you can use the excess water to dump the heat you will invariably get into the loop and then vent it into space. Makes things a bit more complicated, but not excessively so.

[Lurve]

I made a point to try out the ice maker this evening.  It's *fine,* guys.

Here's some early bristle blossoms growing in Aridio (lucky care package).  Ice maker heat gets dumped out into the caustic biome, where it has made approximately zero impact on the biome.  Ice gets melted, then pumped around.  Half-assed insulation is more than sufficient to keep them separated.