rework Why Webber sucks, and how to fix him

[Canis]

I want to preface this thread with a note, since I am basically going to trash Webber for the meme to get my point across: I used to main webber and I have hundreds of hours worth of experience with him. Hell, I made a steam guide for him that's on the front page of the most popular of all time tab.
(You can see that here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1164565027 be warned that this is like, a year and a half old now, and the way I narrate things have changed)

So, now with that out of the way, let's get to the main point. Webber sucks.
Now, of course, people are going to jump on me and say "he's OP! He can make an infinite amount of food!"
Yeah but he still sucks, and here's why.

If you want to be viewed as a "good" Webber in any server, you'll need to be constantly spider farming. Spider farming allows for literal chests-full of sanity restoration (silk / top hats), hunger restoration (monster meat), and health restoration (spider glands).
And the real kicker is that with the recent release of Wortox, Webber is now no longer the best character for health restoration, so now he's just viewed as a "meh" sidegrade to Wortox.
Even if we remove Wortox from the topic entirely, Webber is still not that great of a choice to pick as a character after you have more than a hundred hours into the game and you know how to keep your three stats up. The reason? He's boring to play.
Think of it, your sole purpose to a base is to sit at your spider dens and spider farm every night. This also sucks because it's absurdly OP. A competent Webber can live anywhere on the map, by himself, and survive as long as he has a handful of spider dens, because each spider drops fills each three stats respectively. The only real reasons why Webber should leave the spider dens are either to prepare for seasons, or to go fight something. Hell, even hounds aren't a problem because you can use spiders against them. Hell, you can even get away with using spiders alone to deal with hounds after day 100.

To sum things up, there are Webber has two problems:
-Boring to play
-Overshadowed by Wortox and people who know how to keep their hunger and health up.

Now, the fun part. How to solve them.

The game discourages staying near your base 24/7, however this is not the case with your spider dens. A solution that sounds good on paper is to give Webber perks that encourage him to explore, or rather, be less glued to his spiders. Here are some ideas.

Give Webber limited nightvision. As in, during the night, he will be able to see in the dark, however, he will only be able to see things closely nearby. In practical terms, he will be able to see the dark akin to a light radius smaller than a torch, but slightly bigger than Willow's lighter. Being able to walk around in the darkness will allow for more adventuring, however it's still needed to craft a lantern or similar to see more in the dark. However, his sanity drain during the dark should be left unchanged.Rework spider farming entirely. As in, change it's definition. You know how you can command spiders to attack each other? remove that feature entirely. You shouldn't be able to command spiders to attack other spiders, unless you have a spider hat. This allows more room to work with, and gives more emphasis on Webber regarding spiders as friends. Now the question is "how do you spider farm?" I put the rest of this idea in a spoiler because it goes pretty in-depth. 

Spoiler

 

When befriended, spiders could have the chance to weave silk and give it to Webber. After they do this, it have to wait 60 seconds, then it will wait until it randomly decides to do it again. Also, while still being befriended, you could give more meat to a spider to convince it to start weaving silk on the spot. This also allows Webber to walk around and spider farm at the same time so he isn't glued to his spider dens every night.

This removes Webber's ability to easily farm monster meat and spider glands however. So lets look at each of those.

For spider glands, you can replace the need to farm them entirely, and instead use silk (and maybe ash or something) to craft a "Silk Wrap" which could heal for 10 (or 15) HP. To avoid this being too OP, it would only be able to stack up to 5. If this still sounds OP, keep in mind that spider glands stack up to 40, which heal 8 each, and Wortox's souls heal 13-20 each, scaling down depending on the amount of people. Having Silk Wraps would provide a good use for silk, which Webber players usally have too much of more often than not, and it gives a good alternative to Wortox for healing because healing is no longer situational, as other players can carry silk wraps and don't require you to heal them directly.

As for monster meat, you could be able to pick up befriended spiders in the inventory (doesnt stack) and murder them in said inventory for their drops. This would, however, come with the penalty of dealing a big sanity hit to Webber, at around 15 sanity per kill, maybe? Also, a spider in the inventory should have a higher chance of producing monster meat, and/or a lowered chance to drop silk. Maybe a 80% chance for monster meat, 20% for a spider gland.

There, now all three spider drops now have a viable means to produce them, getting rid of the need to spider farm in the "old-school" way.

 

Give Webber the ability to craft cave spider dens. Cave Spider dens should be able to be crafted with (and this is a subjective recipe for the sake of an example) 1 cave spider eggs, 12 rocks, and 10 silk. Now, what are "Cave Spider Eggs"? They should be new drops that drop when naturally-spawning cave spider dens are mined with a pickaxe. They wouldn't be able to be planted, as their only purpose is for use in Webber's crafting recipe.
This would give Webber the ability to make spiders actually viable in killing bosses and such. The spider spitters and the cave spiders have so much unused potential in mob killing. Also, unlike normal spider dens, crafted Cave Spider dens work similarly to their natural counterpart, as they can't be attacked normally, and must be destroyed with a pickaxe, or mobs with the ability to destroy structures. It's also fire-proof, so that's a plus. However, to deter players from replacing normal spiders entirely, both cave spider counterparts should not be able to weave silk for Webber, nor be picked up.

So, those are all my ideas. Yay? Nay? Klei? Leave some ideas of your own below, or bash me on the head and tell me why I'm wrong.

[reverentsatyr]

24 minutes ago, Canis said:

-Boring to play

I agree that Webber can be way more interesting considering he's half spider, but I disagree that he's boring to play. His quotes are funny and cute, and in my experience you can still be useful when not constantly spider farming, as long as you actually know how to play good n stuff. And if you don't need monster meat for food, you can just create one of the many farm ideas for spider glands and silk. On one of my worlds, I was pretty low on silk and glands I wanted stingers for darts. So I switched to Webber and started a small patch of spider dens in the middle of a bee hive area, and that started a turf war between spiders and bees. Now that place is littered with remains of fallen creatures. I think Webber is plenty fun and that he doesn't actually stink ^{bite me}

[FreyaMaluk]

I don't think it's fair to say Wortox made healing via healing salves or any other healing in general useless.. I would never rely on any character to heal me in general... 

Now... You never mentioned jellybeans here... Which is totally strange to me.. If we go from how healing items got over shadowed by anything in the game, jellybeans should have been in you list... On the top of that list in fact...

Wortox was added just to make healing more varied.. Not to substitute anything... Or anyone... Healing salves still have their place and paultices too... Jellybeans and now Wortox in a support role.. But not as main sources of healing 

We still need glands for other purposes too.. Like hearts to revive people... So it's never a waste to have a diligent webber helping with that...

If ever Webber and Wortox have the strongest character affinity.. They are both monsters and they work amazingly good together in great synergy for healing, food and combat... 

52 minutes ago, Canis said:

Give Webber the ability to craft cave spider dens. Cave Spider dens should be able to be crafted with (and this is a subjective recipe for the sake of an example) 1 cave spider eggs, 12 rocks, and 10 silk. Now, what are "Cave Spider Eggs"? They should be new drops that drop when naturally-spawning cave spider dens are mined with a pickaxe. They wouldn't be able to be planted, as their only purpose is for use in Webber's crafting recipe.
This would give Webber the ability to make spiders actually viable in killing bosses and such. The spider spitters and the cave spiders have so much unused potential in mob killing. Also, unlike normal spider dens, crafted Cave Spider dens work similarly to their natural counterpart, as they can't be attacked normally, and must be destroyed with a pickaxe, or mobs with the ability to destroy structures. It's also fire-proof, so that's a plus. However, to deter players from replacing normal spiders entirely, both cave spider counterparts should not be able to weave silk for Webber, nor be picked up.

This is the only suggestion I agree with from OP. I've seen this before in another thread about Webber's rework and I believe this would be totally fun and in character.. 

[4 Da LOLs]

Webber should have plant farm based ability it fits the character and will allow more synergies and give more to Webber then the ice box filling  tophat spamer

[ButterStuffed]

Personally I think Webber's problem is that his late game potential is really meh compared to the other characters. Amassing an enormous amount of spider dens for protection, spider glands, silk, and monster meat are things you can do late game but there are other better options and realistically three out of the four resources spiders provide will never be needed in excess. That and every single character in the game can do what Webber can in a slightly less efficient manner with the spider queen hat.

He really needs something to unique to justify playing later in the game since he's so overshadowed by other options. That or spider resource intensive recipes need to be added into the game so that the excess spider stuff he can amass actually has a purpose other than looking pretty in a chest.

[Pop Guy]

You raised non-problems: Webber is a solid character that works, you don't must to stay on the basis for cultivating cobwebs always, and the low sanity offers an interesting challenge for the less experienced players, and an opportunity to cultivate nightmares for the really good players.
The fact that Wortox is a walking ambulance does not obscure Webber's excellent potential, not to mention that spider glands allow hearts to be built.
I think the only thing Webber would need would be the possibility of sleeping in spider nests and to ride queens.
If you have to do the spider, do it all the way.

[Sinister_Fang]

2 hours ago, reverentsatyr said:

and in my experience you can still be useful when not constantly spider farming, as long as you actually know how to play good n stuff

That's true of literally any character though. You can get away with using anyone and ignoring their perks entirely if you're good enough. It's just that Webber's perks on their own aren't that useful when you take a step back and actually look at them. Especially when you consider anyone else with a spider hat can replicate his biggest perk fairly easily.

[I.E.L]

I'm a Webber main and I played as him for a long time and I enjoy his but if I play as any other character that I enjoy I just feel like Webber has things missing that would make him 100% pick for a server

[FreyaMaluk]

2 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

That's true of literally any character though. You can get away with using anyone and ignoring their perks entirely if you're good enough. It's just that Webber's perks on their own aren't that useful when you take a step back and actually look at them. Especially when you consider anyone else with a spider hat can replicate his biggest perk fairly easily.

I agree with the idea that he needs more late game content.. But calling him pretty much garbage is a bit of a stretch

From what I've heard from other Webber mains:

- to ride spider queens

- build cave spiders dens

- and sleep in a spider dens. 

I agree with all of those.. They look like fun and unique... 

On top of that... I wish he could have other stuff that isn't ready related to spiders... Many some Gorge ideas with farms or goats.. 

[Alexias]

4 hours ago, Canis said:

Boring to play

Subjective and opinion based, not everyone find him boring.

4 hours ago, Canis said:

Overshadowed by people who know how to keep their hunger and health up.

“Wortox is overshadowed by people who know how to keep their health up”

4 hours ago, Canis said:

And the real kicker is that with the recent release of Wortox, Webber is now no longer the best character for health restoration, so now he's just viewed as a "meh" sidegrade to Wortox.

He has other advantages more than healing, he excel in collecting food and monster meats (for meatballs) and silk.

4 hours ago, Canis said:

Think of it, your sole purpose to a base is to sit at your spider dens and spider farm every night. This also sucks because it's absurdly OP. A competent Webber can live anywhere on the map, by himself, and survive as long as he has a handful of spider dens, because each spider drops fills each three stats respectively. The only real reasons why Webber should leave the spider dens are either to prepare for seasons, or to go fight something.

this like saying wilson should sit next to pig houses and only leave if he want prepare for seasons or fight something

—

i think webber lack of endgame potential, he still a good pick in early game when he can farm silk and meatballs.

[HereBeJimbo]

5 hours ago, Canis said:

Give Webber limited nightvision. As in, during the night, he will be able to see in the dark, however, he will only be able to see things closely nearby. In practical terms, he will be able to see the dark akin to a light radius smaller than a torch, but slightly bigger than Willow's lighter. Being able to walk around in the darkness will allow for more adventuring, however it's still needed to craft a lantern or similar to see more in the dark. However, his sanity drain during the dark should be left unchanged

Webber: Wicker, can we get Charlie the Night Monster?
Wickerbottom: We have Charlie the Night Monster at night

Webber: No

[ShadowDuelist]

I'll give my 2 cents: no perk of webber should be removed, he has a good set of skills, the issue they have is that he becomes lacking and boring past early game. Also the nightvision perk suggested by OP would break entirely the charlie mechanic, I dont think that would solve his problems.

I agree that he should be able to build cave spiders dens: Probably as a mid game upgrade for webber, using for example 2 spider dens, 2 nightmare fuel and some rocks. The only thing I dont know is how would you go and reliably summon the cave spider variants to be used...

Regarding the "Riding spider queens" idea: arent they way too slow to be of any actual use? Also they are short lived too (only a few days). This sounds like fun as an idea for the first 2 minutes, but in practice I can only see me facetanking bosses a little bit until they die, since they are too slow to even kite. I think he should instead be able to command them via an upgraded version of spiderhat he can build, with spiderhat as an ingredient for it (and maybe anyone can use).That way you can sort of coordinate to get to spawn 2 or 3 queens in an area and when they do, command them to do something. This could be a lategame strategy for webber.

Sleeping in dens: I see no problem in that, its a small little addition that would be fitting. Since he can upgrade the tier 1 and tier 2 dens, to prevent the game mechanics from being complicated when you mouse over the den, he should be able to sleep in tier 3 dens only, since he can no longer upgrade those.

Also I'd lower the spider den crafting cost a bit to just 3 papyrus instead of 6. Nobody ever makes dens that way since you can easily get a stack by going around the map and upgrade those existing.

[Chaosky]

Heres my responses to some of your points made.

 

Fun to play: webber does need a rework, i agree with this.  Even in his current state however he is fun to play i really enjoy him as a character. 

 

Healer / Wortox: I genuinely don't believe you can place them even in the same category of comparing their healing contributions to a team.  Just because webber can farm glands a bit easier does not make him a healer.  Anyone can bunnyfarm for easy pierogis and that certainly does not make them healers. 

 

Reasons to leave base: Now on this subject I think anyone who plays DST needs to make an effort to leave the base as its very rewarding to keep up with gathering outside of basic survival items. I do agree that it would be great to see webber get re worked in this area though.  Perhaps bonus move speed and attack damage in the evenings and night? ( that's when spiders are active)

 

Btw Great read,  interesting points and subject!

[Canis]

Thank you for the replies everyone.

I want to put more emphasis on the first sentence of the post.

8 hours ago, Canis said:

I want to preface this thread with a note, since I am basically going to trash Webber for the meme to get my point across:

 

For sleeping in spider dens, it would be okay, I guess, but it'd then make Webber's sanity even easier to manage than before, which I'm not a fan of.

For riding spider queens, no. Shadow hit it on the nail here:

26 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

...arent they way too slow to be of any actual use? Also they are short lived too (only a few days). This sounds like fun as an idea for the first 2 minutes, but in practice I can only see me facetanking bosses a little bit until they die...

 

 

[Osbalop]

I think it would be cool if you could herd spiders.

If you fed them enough they would join your "herd" they would follow you around much longer but you will have to feed them to keep them happy, 

if a spider is happy it would start producing silk that you can harvest without hurting the spider, the warrior spiders will be stronger etc..

And because the end game can be boring for Webber they could introduce buildings where you can store each type of Spider, including the cave ones, maybe even a expensive building where you can keep spider queens.

[Superlucas1231]

Wortox's healing doesn't really overshadow spider glands. Especially once you realized that Wortox has to be standing near you at all times for his healing to be more viable than anything else in the game. 

I can agree that Webber is underwhelming in end game and the fact that his spiders aren't as viable as pig/bunnymen. On top of the cave spiders idea, Webber should have some kind of feeding pail to buff his followers in replacement of helmets (ex. 1 monster lasagna gives 3 of Webber's followers an increase to def.) 

I also want to see a way for Webber to use spider queens effectively. One idea I had in mind is a some sort of spider queen tribute that Webber can craft for a chunk of spider resources (ex 15 monster meat, 20 webs, 20 glands) to activate and permanently befriend an SQ. On top of that, giving Webber the ability to force them into "nesting" mode. 

I also just want befriended spiders to not cause a sanity drain to nearby players. That's just annoying.  

[BiddoBams]

Just give Webber those lil spiders he had during the forge as permanent body guards then I'll never use another character thanks

[FreyaMaluk]

1 hour ago, Canis said:

For sleeping in spider dens, it would be okay, I guess, but it'd then make Webber's sanity even easier to manage than before, which I'm not a fan of.

noone said you HAVE to recover sanity.. that's another suggestion entirely

mostly to escape the rain 

I think the idea spider queens are short lived... is technically not true.. they just turn into a new spider egg after a while and sometimes they stay in they queen state if you don't come back to that place... they can be dormant for a while

riding them might be fun... exactly the point of a videogame... fun

maybe they can get a bit of speed if "domesticated" to make them analogue to a beefalo

 

[Chaosky]

A Webber suggestion that just popped into my mind... IMAGINE.. if webber could craft web traps similar to labyrinth that could trigger when bosses or mobs walked on them summoning strong ally spiders to help in combat!!!!! OMFKASMNFKLAGNSZEGNMEL I WANT THIS NOW.

Spooder Raid!!!

[4 Da LOLs]

a clear trend is that they need more end game that should be our groundwork

[GenomeSquirrel]

15 minutes ago, Chaosky said:

A Webber suggestion that just popped into my mind... IMAGINE.. if webber could craft web traps similar to labyrinth that could trigger when bosses or mobs walked on them summoning strong ally spiders to help in combat!!!!! OMFKASMNFKLAGNSZEGNMEL I WANT THIS NOW.

Spooder Raid!!!

what would you expect the trap to do that tier 3 dens don't already do?

[Chaosky]

 

12 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

what would you expect the trap to do that tier 3 dens don't already do?

For one be a new stronger set of spiders, maybe even with elemental properties for some. Ex: Winter spiders that freeze upon death. Another thing is you wouldn't have to physically set a Tier 3 den at a location which will eventually turn into a Queen and back to a level 1 den. It's quite different actually, there wouldn't even be a ton of spooders roaming about in the evening, only when triggered.

[FreyaMaluk]

11 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

what would you expect the trap to do that tier 3 dens don't already do?

spawn other ... stronger spiders?

[Nolgore]

l used to be a big advocate for the Shamlet mask in DST, but with the addition of Wortox and Klei doubling down on the "is a monster" idea, I no longer think that is necessary.

Cave spider den: the first obvious buff. Considering you could bring cave spiders to the surface in single player already, I don't think this will be too game breaking. Recipe could be spider den, X rocks, and 2 fossil fragments (since they drop from spilagmites anyway).

Webbed turf: Really just a way to enhance traps and base defenses with a slow effect. Also a gives a use for the plethora of silk Webber generates.

Webbed... walls?: I would love a wall that spider's don't attack, if only for decorative purposes. I'd prefer spider's just not attack regular walls for no reason, but I'd take this as a compromise.

A few QOL adjustments: befriended spiders should not attack Chester, and Abigail should not target them either. A 10 second window where they will not attack players after leaving your service (I don't think other players should be punished for another person's character choice), and the ability to "maintain" dens by shaving a tier off of them (I'm sure Webber mains know the frustration of leaving for an adventure and coming back to your tier 3 nests erupting into queens in unison).

Pipe dream: A new science/magic den type. I have this vision in my head of spiders with goofy goggles/helmets strapped to their head that would make them neutral to other players and give them a little bit of armor. These spiders would defend Webber regardless of whether they are currently tamed, and would be okay to have around the base to help with defense. I like the idea of Webber learning this from Wilson and Maxwell, who are having a Hook-like battle for the boy's soul lol. Den could cost gears/gems/doodads to reflect the mad science and magic nature of it's origins.

[seffard]

All I ask is something that can fool pigs for a while, maybe a nerfed Shamlet mask.  Hard interaction with pigs is a serious no fun for me, mainly because of wood.