wormwood Why Wormwood sucks, and how to fix him

[Brago-sama]

1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said:

if you want 0 fire resistance then that's what that means

Wait now I get it. Why are you making an ultimatum. He can be vulnerable to being set a light and have safe places too. The two are not mutually exclusive nor are they currently in game (a log next to a fire pit will not burn)

Edit: You are taking the word far too literal and giving it a textbook meaning without applying context (wormwood singleplayer fire mechanics and the conversation between us)

[Neu7ral]

For the armor I'd like to stick to a low defense, it goes well with another helmet but not too potent alone, I like the idea to not damaging you picking cactus and swamp bushes so. I'll go for it.

[Bird Up]

I like all the ideas except the horticulture. The husk armor won't be used at all unless it changes. The traps are worse than tooth traps and are more time consuming to make in my opinion. He had the perk of being immune to hay fever in Hamlet, but hay fever isn't in DST. He loses his ability to create a cure for poison because DST doesn't have poison, so I think he should be given another green thumb option. Also the convenience of not getting hit by eyeplants... really isn't convenient. I don't want his single player version to overshadow his multiplayer version, just how woodie's single player version overshadows his multiplayer version.

[Canis]

1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said:

saying "flammable" doesn't mean being able to catch fire as a smoldering effect.

Thats… exactly what it means...

 

1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said:

He already catches fire quickly if something is burning around him..... BTW there is no smoldering effect in DST summer... ergo not possible to get random combustion is summer.

Are we talking about the same game here? Summer has always had smoldering, regardless of DS or DST.

 

1 hour ago, FreyaMaluk said:

and calling a character that is not even in the roster "SUCKS" is pretty disingenuous and misleading. at least wait until release for an informed opinion

This was explained in one of the first few lines of the post:

"Also, regarding the title, Wormwood doesn't suck all that much. It's just meant to catch your eye, and to stay with my theme of my "Why [character] sucks, and how to fix them" threads."

 

tl;dr I want what you're smoking.

[Toroic]

@Canis the fundamental issue I have with your analysis about wormwood sucking, the basis for all his buffs... is that his healing is an issue.

It’s not, and here’s why: 

1) Normal healing in dst is trivially easy to the point actual healing items and tents are essentially never used.  But not only do they exist, they are also effective and if basing near reeds and setting up bee boxes, plentiful.  Healing still is not difficult for wormwood by the time you’re doing much combat.

2) Both wortox and webber trivialize healing for Wormwood, and Wortox + Wormwood negate Wormwood’s weaknesses and provide nigh infinite living logs.

You’re also way overestimating the value of Wormwood’s seed planting perk.  There are multiple ways to automate food production in DST and the only worthwhile use for farms are dragonfruit which are for healing with the hunger being a mostly irrelevant bonus.

While I do think wormwood could be buffed, the proposed dst changes are perfectly acceptable balance wise and if you misjudge Wormwood’s primary downside by such a large margin it’s impossible to take you as an authority on how he should be changed.

Wormwood in DST will be a perfectly serviceable mid-tier character.

[MarkStein]

I agree with everything, but i think Wormwood need one new recipe for base-building. Bramble Walls. Walls wich damage mobs, what attacked it. That can really help (against hound waves and for spider-farming), and can decide problem with stingers utilizing.

[CactusCompanion]

you have a good point, but the title is a little harsh

[Canis]

3 minutes ago, shyguy1824 said:

you have a good point, but the title is a little harsh

Time to throw a bold/italic/underlined font at the disclaimer and hope for the best.

[CactusCompanion]

oh god oh f *dies instantly*

[Canis]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

@Canis the fundamental issue I have with your analysis about wormwood sucking, the basis for all his buffs... is that his healing is an issue.

It’s not, and here’s why: 

1) Normal healing in dst is trivially easy to the point actual healing items and tents are essentially never used.  But not only do they exist, they are also effective and if basing near reeds and setting up bee boxes, plentiful.  Healing still is not difficult for wormwood by the time you’re doing much combat.

2) Both wortox and webber trivialize healing for Wormwood, and Wortox + Wormwood negate Wormwood’s weaknesses and provide nigh infinite living logs.

You’re also way overestimating the value of Wormwood’s seed planting perk.  There are multiple ways to automate food production in DST and the only worthwhile use for farms are dragonfruit which are for healing with the hunger being a mostly irrelevant bonus.

While I do think wormwood could be buffed, the proposed dst changes are perfectly acceptable balance wise and if you misjudge Wormwood’s primary downside by such a large margin it’s impossible to take you as an authority on how he should be changed.

Wormwood in DST will be a perfectly serviceable mid-tier character.

mid-tier you say? Alrighty then.

*coughs in winona*

*wheezes in wortox*

*has a heart attack in willow*

 

Yeah Wormwood doesn't reap the benefits of dragonfruit as much as other characters, but keep in mind that you can get dragonfruit easier and quicker by planting seeds. Yeah you don't get the 40 health, but 75 hunger per seed makes hunger even more of a joke than it already is. not to mention the fact that the amount of dragonfruit you get per harvesting session can be dozens upon dozens once you have a stupid amount of seeds. Basically, other characters are restricted to however many farm plots they have, while Wormwood on the other hand basically grows an infinite amount natural meatballs at no cost, and that's not even taking into consideration the usefulness of having a problem of "too much" dragonfruit.

tl;dr I'm not overestimating. Rather, you're underestimating.

ps: You add personal notes for every argument I've seen you get in to. Not only is that against the forum rules, its drama bait. Stop that.

[ButterStuffed]

The green thumb trait would also be very nice with beefalo taming. Easy dragon pies and other such things for easy beefalo healing.

Also somewhat unrelated note. @Canis I can’t see how anything Toros was saying was drama bait. Maybe blunt but hardly drama bait. Maybe lighten up a bit? No offense.

[metallichydra]

4 hours ago, Canis said:

other characters are restricted to however many farm plots they have, while Wormwood on the other hand basically grows an infinite amount natural meatballs at no cost,

*after having planted seeds in the entire world, he realized there was a limit

[Captain_Rage]

Considering how much most characters get accused of sucking at some point for some reason Klei might as well add a playable vacuum cleaner as a tribute to the persistently insatiable part of the community. Although feedback is good thing, admittedly. The proposed Wormwood seems very nice already.

[Warlockadamm]

4 minutes ago, metallichydra said:

*after having planted seeds in the entire world, he realized there was a limit

*time to go in caves* ;P

[-Variant]

Didn't read all the posts, sorry.

But I want him to catch fire, it was really cool, and in my own practice, hardly interfered with anything.

Gave my mod characters the exact same fire catching capabilities, and not much happened.

DST fire is so much safer with things having to smoulder first, plus, having a Willow around is ironically helpful in this instance.

Aside from someone catching fire and just sitting there, I don't see how it's all that bad, just makes you play more careful around fire with him.

[Maxposting]

in year 2028 Wormwood will be able to help diseased plants, now shush.

[X-lem]

Great suggestions!

 

I also think manure and such should heal more than 2. 2 is so insignificant. Maybe manure heal 5 while Guano heals 10.

[Terra B Welch]

I feel that the spontaneous combustion in summer for Wormwood should only occur if he's in overheating state, if he's actually able to keep himself cooled off then no spontaneous combustion should occur.

[Ressayez]

6 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

in year 2028 Wormwood will be able to help diseased plants, now shush.

In the year 2525, if man is still alive

If Wormwood can survive, they may find...

[YesterdaysMindr]

On 5/31/2019 at 7:08 PM, Canis said:

 

Give me your thoughts, I guess.

 

A bramble husk that isn't complete garbage? Count me in!

[Well-met]

20 hours ago, MarkStein said:

I agree with everything, but i think Wormwood need one new recipe for base-building. Bramble Walls. Walls wich damage mobs, what attacked it. That can really help (against hound waves and for spider-farming), and can decide problem with stingers utilizing.

exploiter's wet dream.

[Canis]

12 minutes ago, Hell-met said:

exploiter's wet dream.

As if the entire game wasn't that already.

[Well-met]

10 minutes ago, Canis said:

As if the entire game wasn't that already.

and...?

is that a free pass to further create more exploitable instances?

[Toroic]

20 hours ago, Canis said:

mid-tier you say? Alrighty then.

*coughs in winona*

*wheezes in wortox*

*has a heart attack in willow*

I'm not sure what argument you're attempting to make here, but Willow post rework is nowhere near the power level of Wortox and Winona's catapaults (which themselves are mostly just replacements for Wicker tentacle setups with a few exceptions).  Willow is better than before but I wouldn't say she's better than mid-tier right now.

20 hours ago, Canis said:

Yeah Wormwood doesn't reap the benefits of dragonfruit as much as other characters, but keep in mind that you can get dragonfruit easier and quicker by planting seeds. Yeah you don't get the 40 health, but 75 hunger per seed makes hunger even more of a joke than it already is.

Dragonfruit doesn't solve wormwood's problems, which is that he needs an alternative healing method.  Wormwood's seed planting perk isn't a particularly great way to solve hunger permanently, either.  He's actually better off using the same techniques everyone else does for hunger management.

Hunger is already the easiest stat to manage, anyway, which I mentioned in my previous post.

20 hours ago, Canis said:

not to mention the fact that the amount of dragonfruit you get per harvesting session can be dozens upon dozens once you have a stupid amount of seeds. Basically, other characters are restricted to however many farm plots they have, while Wormwood on the other hand basically grows an infinite amount natural meatballs at no cost, and that's not even taking into consideration the usefulness of having a problem of "too much" dragonfruit.

tl;dr I'm not overestimating. Rather, you're underestimating.

I haven't seen a strong argument that Wormwood's seed perk is even as good as Wickerbottom using farms + applied horticulture.  It's free, but it's not a faster path to a large supply of dragonfruit, and Wormwood himself doesn't benefit from the primary reason to bother with dragonfruit: the healing.

By the time Wormwood can build up a large supply of dragonfruit using the slow growth of seeds not planted in farms, wickerbottom could do the same thing and she continues to outpace him by a large margin as just a fraction of her capabilities.  Even wicker though tends not to use dragonfruit spam just for hunger.

20 hours ago, Canis said:

ps: You add personal notes for every argument I've seen you get in to. Not only is that against the forum rules, its drama bait. Stop that.

There's absolutely nothing personal about my dissection of your argument, which I believe to be fundamentally built on healing being a major weakness for Wormwood.  As I explained above, that fundamental assumption your argument for buffs doesn't hold under scrutiny.

You created this thread with the bold statement that Wormwood sucks and that the way to fix him is contained within.  You then immediately give a disclaimer that the title was just clickbait and Wormwood really isn't that bad.  While I personally prefer open and honest communication, I also know that the devs read the forums and take their feedback into consideration.  I've read many threads over the years and many of the arguments made I've agreed with and either responded to or quietly given a reaction to.

I don't think your argument for Wormwood buffs is convincing and I feel we as a community have a responsibility to try our best to give useful feedback to the devs, particularly when their focus is on that particular content.  An argument can absolutely be made for buffing Wormwood's green thumb tab, but I think it's much more effectively rooted in many of his green thumb options being inferior versions of already existing items, and often unnecessary in practice.  As I said earlier, healing for Wormwood ends up being a minor inconvenience and he currently has powerful synergy (particularly with Wortox) with other characters and he contributes sufficiently to the team with easy veggie supply and being able to produce living logs.

A huge reason I come to the forums is to be surprised, to learn about ways to utilize mechanics that I didn't even consider before because it's both interesting and informative.  Not every thread and idea however holds water, and discussing the weaknesses and merits of a concept is not a personal attack but a necessary part of the process for producing high quality discussion.

[AdventZen]

On 31/05/2019 at 11:08 PM, Canis said:

and 70% when worn by other characters

This. Having a better performance on Wormwood than other characters would prevent players from going "the wigfrid approach" (switching to wigfrid, making a ton of helms, switching back to main) and instead actually try to main this wooden boi.

I agree with mostly everything else (maybe not so much the Applied Horticulture thing, would make Wicker even more of an essential, something no character should be) and hope Klei sees this.

Hooowever, Toros' pretty much spot-on with his assessments, and I believe his crafting receiving a buff should be of higher priority.