wormwood Why Wormwood sucks, and how to fix him

[Canis]

So, Wormwood. I have put a good amount of playtime into the character, albeit not as much as other people here. However, this will not stop me from dropping my ideas, which are almost always radical changes. Hey, if enough people ask for it, Klei will at least acknowledge it.

Also, regarding the title, Wormwood doesn't suck all that much. It's just meant to catch your eye, and to stay with my theme of my "Why [character] sucks, and how to fix them" threads.

Now, let's just jump right into it.

-Being Flammable.
I want to be flammable. That's extremely weird to say, but being flammable was one of the perks that was a really unique downside and forced me to adapt my playstyle, especially in Winter.

Counter Argument: "It can be used as a griefing tool."
Rebuttle: Griefing should not be taken into consideration when talking about balance, since anyone with malicious intent can easy craft a torch and create much more havoc. This was the reason why Willow was a god-awful character for half a decade.

Counter Argument: "It will cause players to shun Wormwood players away from base due to an extra fire hazard."
Rebuttle: This is an actual problem to take into consideration, and needs a good thought on how to fix it correctly. One solution is to make an on-fire Wormwood unable to spread said fire on it's own. In other words, flammable objects will not catch on fire when nearby. It will keep the heightened risk of fire as Wormwood.

-Unique Methods of Resurrection. (Original idea by @The 2C3D)
2c3d brought up the idea that Wormwood could craft an item that'd resurrect him after death. However, it would come with the downside that a telltale heart is unusable on Wormwood. However, this alternative would have to be slightly more expensive, albeit cheaper than an amulet. This would force Wormwood players to "be careful with your life", doubly so because Wormwood can't heal with food.
So, here's my idea for the resurrection item:
-1 Living Log
-10 Manure
-50 Hunger
Using hunger as a crafting ingredient is understandably weird to understand. My idea is that the Hunger represents Wormwood putting his plant-energy into the item (as opposed to other characters putting their blood into a telltale heart). The reason why it isn't replaced by sanity or health is because sanity is stupid easy to get, and health would be too much of an issue, plus the fact that a Living Log will already tax the Wormwood 20 health if it's self-grown. Basically, this item is a necessary precaution for your own demise, because you'll be close to Death's door more often than others beause of Wormwood's health issue. (Yes, I've been playing Darkest Dungeon recently shut up)
Also, this item could possibly be something along the lines of a "Magic Fertilizer." It's description could reflect how it's a replacement to the heart with something along the lines of "A Precaution for your demise."

Counter Argument: "It's too much of a downside and will turn him into an unnecessary challenge character."
Rebuttle: Him being able to mass-produce farm crops is overpowered as hell. That alone explains the reason for the severity.

-Buff the Bramble Husk.
At the moment, the armor is... meh. In singleplayer RoG, it's only real purpose is to have extra damage in combat. However, that's counter-intuitive because that requires you to get hit in the first place. If we assume that cacti and spiky bushes are now counted toward it's upside of preventing thorn damage, that still only provides a sub-par niche. The reason why people fear that this will be yet another item overshadowed by the log suit / football helmet is because of it's damage resistance: 65%. As much as a grass suit, which is an item that is notoriously useless.
Here are my ideas:
-Increase the damage resistance to 85% when worn by Wormwood, and 70% when worn by other characters. (It counter-acts Wormwood's general downside of not healing.)
-Have the durability higher than a log suit. (200-500 durability more?)
-Have the armor take no damage when picking spiky bushes / cacti. (To go hand-in-hand with it's immunity to thorns.)
This would increase the armor's viability to be slightly better than a log suit, which is the intention, due to it being a tad pricy to craft.

Counter-Argument: "op"
Rebuttle: Wormwood can't heal from food, which is a very potent downside. Also, this was the reason why I added the idea of the damage resistance being less when worn by other characters. If you still see this as OP, then I dunno, change 85% to 80%, I guess.

-Have Applied Horticulture affect Wormwood himself.
It makes sense, doesn't it? When Wickerbottom (or Max) reads Applied Horticulture, Wormwood should immediately go into the final phase of blooming for, lets say, 3 days. After that, he stops blooming at an accelerated rate. This shouldn't work in Winter, for obvious reasons. If used during Spring, Wormwood skips to the final stage of blooming and stays there until he stops blooming naturally. In addition, when Applied Horticulture is read nearby, Wormwood should gain a good amount of sanity. (50 sounds like a good number)

Counter Argument: "It would inconvenience Wormwood when he doesn't want the increased hunger drain."
Rebuttle: Having an Applied Horticulture in your base means that there is a Wickerbottom in your base. Wickerbottom = food. Not to mention the fact that you can mass-produce food with seeds. In regards to attracting bees when they're not wanted, that's not a problem anyways, because normal bees aren't aggressive outside of Spring, and during Spring, Wormwood blooms anyways.

Give me your thoughts, I guess.

[Axelocke]

Just now, Canis said:

Give me your thoughts, I guess.

Your entire thread has good points, and I agree that being flammable is hot.  

[Brago-sama]

I love everything about this. Those are some good ideas on his armor.

Completely agree with the fire. Of course it's dangerous it's one of his downsides. You should pay it mind. Also, why would setting yourself on fire be part of a griefers arsenal. 0 sense

One thing I would add is maybe limit what crops bloom from seeds as they already are so plentiful or at least lower the rates for the better versions of crops 

Edit: I still think wormwood as is will be very very nice to play with (he does not suck), but I still like the changes you thought of

[Canis]

I formally invite @FreyaMaluk to an argument since I think I recall her being against Wormwood being flammable.

[SeriousSteel]

 I think hunger is under used as a resource and it could help Wormwood as a character.

 At night time if your health is below maximum, your hunger bar should deplete a bit faster, let's say at around 1.2-1.5 the normal rate, while you would regen 1 hit point every 5 seconds until your hit points hit the maximum number again

 I agree with the Bramble Husk, it needs a bit more, but why not make use out of his living logs or the player's hunger to repair the armour? The Bramble Husk could be living off it's host which is the player and it could regen itself by feeding off the player's hunger.

 I don't have an issue if Wormwood's ability to plant seeds everywhere get's slightly changed, I think as a character he has potential to be a valuable asset, it can be decent at holding himself and have the ability to contribute in the farming department when he is with other players

[Canis]

2 minutes ago, SeriousSteel said:

 I think hunger is under used as a resource and it could help Wormwood as a character.

 At night time if your health is below maximum, your hunger bar should deplete a bit faster, let's say at around 1.2-1.5 the normal rate, while you would regen 1 hit point every 5 seconds until your hit points hit the maximum number again

 I agree with the Bramble Husk, it needs a bit more, but why not make use out of his living logs or the player's hunger to repair the armour? The Bramble Husk could be living off it's host which is the player and it could regen itself by feeding off the player's hunger.

 I don't have an issue if Wormwood's ability to plant seeds everywhere get's slightly changed, I think as a character he has potential to be a valuable asset, it can be decent at holding himself and have the ability to contribute in the farming department when he is with other players

Natural HP regen is a slippery slope, especially in a survival game. Wormwood's main downside is the fact that he will always have an issue of health. Being able to regen HP would nullify that entirely, and break the character. Food is easy to come by, doubly so as Wormwood.

[FreyaMaluk]

9 minutes ago, Canis said:

I formally invite @FreyaMaluk to an argument since I think I recall her being against Wormwood being flammable.

he is already flammable... he burns faster than other characters... what you probably want is that he catches fire from overheating and that's another issue entirely

when he uses a camp fire  he catches fire and also from lightning... 

[Canis]

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

he is already flammable... he burns faster than other characters... what you probably want is that he catches fire from overheating and that's another issue entirely

when he uses a camp fire  he catches fire and also from lightning... 

When Wormwood makes a campfire, he has a split second to back up and wait for the fire to become small enough to be safe. He isn't completely blocked out from campfires in general.

And yes, we want him to be able to catch on fire, not a simple "less resistant to fire" perk. Fire damage is doo doo, and there are plenty and plenty of DST veterans that don't even remember the last time they took a point of fire damage.

[SeriousSteel]

 The only thing I can think of is if setting him on fire would give him a similar effect to Wx being hit by lightning, but instead of healing him, he would burn but go on an adrenaline/rage state where he does significantly more damage while burning

[Brago-sama]

He also spontaneously combust during summer. I've seen it happen in a stream where he starts smoldering and then combusts

[Canis]

Just now, Brago-sama said:

He also spontaneously combust during summer. I've seen it happen in a stream where he starts smoldering and then combusts

I don't see that being a problem. If something is smoldering, other characters can put it out using various methods, the easiest being their hands. You can also retreat to an Ice Flingomatic, which you should have if you're in Summer.

[SeriousSteel]

It would be hilarious if you could get ice during the summer from Wormwood when he is frozen

[Raspberry Shake]

13 minutes ago, Canis said:

I don't see that being a problem. If something is smoldering, other characters can put it out using various methods, the easiest being their hands. You can also retreat to an Ice Flingomatic, which you should have if you're in Summer.

Perhaps a item in his green thumb tab that stops him from bursting into flames?

[Canis]

Just now, Raspberry Shake said:

Perhaps a item in his green thumb tab that stops him from bursting into flames?

This just gave me an idea.

What if Wormwood could stop himself from smoldering by using manure. Surely, rubbing fresh poop all over yourself would snuff it out.

[Brago-sama]

13 minutes ago, Canis said:

I don't see that being a problem. If something is smoldering, other characters can put it out using various methods, the easiest being their hands. You can also retreat to an Ice Flingomatic, which you should have if you're in Summer.

I was just pointing it out since no one else seems to have said it. 

And yes, if you don't have something to put yourself out, you simply didn't prepare for summer then. Maybe a few spare waterballoons just for personal use 

[ButterStuffed]

The current lunar island creatures imply the possibility of more plant based creatures. Wormwood could automatically be friendly to any hostile ones that may be implemented.

Even more living log recipes would make Wormwood extra viable since he’s a very reliable source of living logs. That or make unique items he can make way more viable since right now they’re pretty much just cheaper weaker versions of already existing tools.

[WkingDisaster]

can other players eat wormwood when they are hungry, then he might be useful. lol.

[FreyaMaluk]

21 minutes ago, Canis said:

When Wormwood makes a campfire, he has a split second to back up and wait for the fire to become small enough to be safe. He isn't completely blocked out from campfires in general.

And yes, we want him to be able to catch on fire, not a simple "less resistant to fire" perk. Fire damage is doo doo, and there are plenty and plenty of DST veterans that don't even remember the last time they took a point of fire damage.

making him completely burnable all the time would be just annoying and boring... he already has a very cool playstyle in DS and IMO he doesn't need more changes

[Canis]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

making him completely burnable all the time would be just annoying and boring...

I personally found it to be a downside that actively forces me to adapt my playstyle, which I find to be fun.

1 minute ago, FreyaMaluk said:

he already has a very cool playstyle in DS and IMO he doesn't need more changes

He is completely burnable all the time in Singleplayer, wym?

[FreyaMaluk]

1 minute ago, Canis said:

1. I personally found it to be a downside that actively forces me to adapt my playstyle, which I find to be fun.

2. He is completely burnable all the time in Singleplayer, wym?

1. have you played him on DS? he catches fire pretty fast... 

2. dude... define your terms better...

burnable is everything that can burn... same with flammable... and Wormwood IS burnable/flammable 

BUT you want another extra thing ON TOP that I had to deduct cuz you didn't even say exactly what you want, ergo burning while overheating and 0 fire resistance

AND to that I say NO ty. making him unable to cook at all in camp fires or not being able to even approach fire pits etc isn't an addition I consider interesting, just annoying. 

[SeriousSteel]

15 minutes ago, ButterStuffed said:

"Even more living log recipes would make Wormwood extra viable since he’s a very reliable source of living logs."

Makes me wish he could craft a Bramble Hat by combining a straw hat and living logs, to make a straw hat with added protection and heat resistance it already has

[Canis]

18 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

1. have you played him on DS? he catches fire pretty fast... 

2. dude... define your terms better...

1. Yes. That's a downside that actively forces me to adapt my playstyle, which is, again, fun imo.

2. What else could "flammable" mean?

19 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

BUT you want another extra thing ON TOP that I had to deduct cuz you didn't even say exactly what you want, ergo burning while overheating and 0 fire resistance

I never said anything remotely close to that. I said that I want Wormwood to be able to catch on fire, either by open fires or random combustion (summer), exactly like how it is in Single Player.

20 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

AND to that I say NO ty. making him unable to cook at all in camp fires or not being able to even approach fire pits etc isn't an addition I consider interesting, just annoying. 

Fire Pits are safe to use in Singleplayer, and should also be safe to use in DST, because they don't count as an open fire.

[Brago-sama]

Yeah aren't fire pits safe for wormwood in Singleplayer? I dont think that's changing nor should it be. 

Edit:Things like summer or gathering charcoal are more difficult with him but hey, that's a downside for ya 

 

[Brago-sama]

Just now, FreyaMaluk said:

if you want 0 fire resistance then that's what that means

The word or the situation. I'm confused here

[Canis]

2 minutes ago, FreyaMaluk said:

if you want 0 fire resistance then that's what that means

That's not how fire res works, at all. Fire Pits and counterparts don't count as an open fire, meaning that the fire doesn't spread to structures / flammable objects near it. Why should Wormwood be an exception?