Should wanda be nerfed?

[Cloakingsumo198]

18 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

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Finally! Someone that just "acknowledges" her strength without making excuses.

Spoiler

Took only 10 pages. But we are getting somewhere.

I don't agree with any of these nerfs.  Simply because I think it's unnecessary and wouldn't really add anything, like most nerfs.

 

If the darksword became a viable option for her as well that would be awesome, right now there isn't really any purpose is using the riskier option between DS and AC. Alarming clock just completely outshines it.

[HowlVoid]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Idk Wanda is a high power character, and is supposed to be.  It is done through a risk reward style where you need to be low health to get maximum value.  She can use night armor and dark sword with out sanity penalty,

Night armor still deducts sanity from Wanda when she gets hit, so it's not completely negated.

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ice / fire staff with reduced penalty, AC which has both max damage and a range advantage, can craft any number of AW, which can mitigate any casual damage.

You could play her as a young Wanda if you want, but you wouldn't be getting her top end potential.  Is that important?

Quite, this allows for a different play style where you can plays as a safer Wanda. Not everyone wants the high risk high reward aspect she has. 

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Alarming Clock:  Young Wanda using the clock gets 81.6 damage per hit, which comes to 1958.4 damage per nm fuel. 

You didn't take into account her attack speed.

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This is pretty low compared to her Elder form using the clock which nets 142.8 per hit (3427.2 / fuel), but its still high compared to a dark sword at 68 damage per hit and only 1360 / fuel...  I can see this being too much for young Wanda.

Wig has a permanent 1.25x damage multiplier and has no healing penalties.

Wolf has an almost day long 2x damage multiplier and has virtually no downsides.

Young Wanda plays on an even playing field. Compared to a higher damage Wolfgang and a Wig that empowers a whole team, Young Wanda would have no other unique features in combat. Her Alarming Watch means she is an Independent player through and through. She doesn't need Wormwood's living logs for darkswords, she doesn't need Warly's spices to deal damage to the enemies with inflated hp, she pulls her own weight.

I know everyone can pull their own weight skill wise, I'm talking about damage wise. She doesn't need resources for a decent weapon or help from other characters to pull good numbers.

Why does no one talk about this aspect of hers? It's very important.

The fact that she is so incredibly independent means there are more resources for the rest of the team. 

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Ageless Watch:  With a single ageless watch the numbers look pretty good for a challenge character. 

High risk/high reward and challenge are not the same thing. With young Wanda you have a strong teleporting wig and with old Wanda you have a slightly harder Wolfgang. The fact that she can do either on one character is amazing and changing that dynamic to balance her around other characters is a bad decision.

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You naturally lose 12 years per day, and if you use AW on cd every time you heal 32 per day.  This gives you about 50 health per day to play with which can get tricky.  Each additional AW gives you 80 health per day to play with.  I can see how stacking these can get out of hand.

20 hp per watch is 1 blue mushroom every 2 minutes. 

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Without touching Elder Wanda potential - I could say reduce AC fueled damage to <50 per hit at young age,

So less far than a hambat due to less attacks speed for literally no reason?

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and maybe 60 middle age,

This would make middle age Wanda completely useless as it would be more beneficial to use young Wanda with a darkswords. Stripping a unique aspect of hers for the sake of meaningless nonexistent balance. I use middle aged Wanda btw, it's my favorite form.

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giving Elder the big damage spike.  Give her a general purpose damage penalty for non-shadow weapons at all ages, so until she gets ds or ac she is less combat viable than Wilson.  Basically make DS the go to damage dealer for young / middle Wanda, but flipping this in Elder where the AC picks up.  The efficiency of the weapon could take a hit getting only 12% per nm fuel, halving the cost / efficiency.

The Weapon is great at killing nightmares due to them sometimes disappearing on the first hit, I'll give you that. However you're just prolonging how long you have to farm it and nothing more (nightmare fuel stacks to 40 so...) So tedium for tediums sake. 

Also making her have a disadvantage with all weapons at all stages is beyond silly. A downside for the sake of a downside that also doesn't make any sense. 

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Then health - what probably needs to happen is a bit of a retune.  Currently each year is worth 2.5 health which is effectively 150 health, and she loses 30 health per day.  Elder form exists below 37.5 health.  Because you heal 20 health on an AW

That's still only 1 blue mushroom every two minutes. That's not even a pierogie.

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 use you must drop to 17 health before activating the watch to maintain your form.  If each year were only worth 1.25 health you would lose 15 per day, Elder would exist below 18.75 health, and you'd need to drop to 8 health before you use your watch to maintain form.  You would have an effective health of 75, matching Maxwell but being encouraged to play on the lowest edge of that.  (I would suggest with this she gets 1/2 reduced damage from any dot effects, hot / cold / starving b/c these really take a toll on her in current form, cutting her effective health in half makes these almost instant killers for elder wanda.)

This is beyond horrible mechanical wise.

Already you generally only use one watch to maintain her old form because a second use tend to go over the thresh hold.

What is this "balance" supposed to do? Everyone would have to calculate to use the AW before the next hit would kill you (affecting only casual players like me). You'd revert to middle aged Wanda for a few seconds for what? To shave a few seconds off kill times with bosses? 

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What we could probably do as well is remove AW as a craftable item.  You start with 1, you only ever get 1.  You can move it around in your inventory but you can never drop it, and it stays with you when you die.  Cut the cd in half, leave the effect the same.  If you fail a use now you have to wait out the cd before you can try again rather than just using the next watch in line.

That's sounds horrible, I need 3-4 watches  to kill BeeQueen. The fact that each ageless watch takes a an item slot in itself is plenty balance wise.

I kill bee queen with Wormwood and he can heal infinitely, all characters can. His only problem is damage so the fight takes a long time as a solo player. Reducing her healing when she isn't even a challenge character is really bad. 

You can play challenging as Wanda but you don't have to, that what's great about Wanda.

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With these changes would you think she is 1) still playable, and 2) appropriately challenging to warrant the AC with its current numbers / range?

Horrible changes across the board. They either don't change anything other than make her more tedious or turn her into a challenge character throughout all her forms for no reason. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

AW op but you see people shoveling mushrooms because picking 20 isnt enough, they need 80 xddddd

[Wurtstool]

Look, I personally believe that some characters are allowed to be better than others, this isn't a competitive PvP game in the end (well the focus isn't PvP). If you think a character is OP and makes the game easier in your eyes than more power to you, go have fun with that character.

An OP character only becomes a problem if they strictly outclass another character in ALL aspects of their kit, for example if Keli releases Wilson 2.0 that grows a beard that completely stops freezing, that would make it so no one will play Wilson 1.0

In the end, what matters is if they are fun/interesting and different to play form one another and I think Klei did a good job in that department at least. Even when one character does a certain job better than another, no two characters plays the same from my understanding. Each has their own form of playstyle that caters to some type of player and each brings a certain niche to a team. 

[HowlVoid]

40 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

AW op but you see people shoveling mushrooms because picking 20 isnt enough, they need 80 xddddd

Wanda op because she can eat a blue mushrooms every 2 minutes lol! 

Damn Wanda broke the game.

3 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Finally! Someone that just "acknowledges" her strength without making excuses.

  Reveal hidden contents

Took only 10 pages. But we are getting somewhere.

I don't agree with any of these nerfs.  Simply because I think it's unnecessary and wouldn't really add anything, like most nerfs.

Have you considered that some people don't struggle with Wanda because they're good at the game?

Of course someone that can kite reliably isn't going to be affected by her lower hp as old Wanda.

The game rewards good skill! She isn't fragile if the player is a good player you're only seeing half of the truth.

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If the darksword became a viable option for her as well that would be awesome, right now there isn't really any purpose is using the riskier option between DS and AC. Alarming clock just completely outshines it.

Making something viable by nerfing every other option is one of the worse ways to approach balance in video games. I have seen it in other games and it just kills the fun for no reason. 

[SecretPizzaMan]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Actually this threads not about Wendy/Wolfgang/Woodie/Wurt/Willow or Whoever else you want to name drop into the conversation: it’s about Wanda and rather or not she should have nerfs.

And my opinion on that is if she’s supposed to be a High Risk = High Reward character then she shouldn’t also have literally “Free” Watches each time she dies.

I understand that WITHOUT this watch she will Die, But.. What if her First Ageless watch was “Bound” to her?? As in If you happen to DIE.. instead of being dropped on the ground or left in your probably easily recoverable Backpack: That exact watch should Transcend death WITH You through the fabrics of Space and TIME so it Never leaves her inventory anyway… but the way Klei CURRENTLY has it set up is you can get Free Watches just from playing Poorly..

No need to actually go to the ruins, or archives, or decide what watches to build with your clock parts, you can literally just use the Clock Kits to Deconstruct your Extra Ageless Watches (or Keep Them for more Healing)

And you call this a Risk Vs Reward Character?

Im a WENDY MAIN and if I happen to be careless enough to get Abigail Killed her 600 hp drops to 150 and any Ectoherbology potions I once had applied to her are no longer in Effect.

So Yes Wanda Mains… You DO Need a Nerf, can we all just Agree to that?

Thank You <3

Wait you could duplicate watches? I'm confused.

[SonicDen220]

5 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

Wait you could duplicate watches? I'm confused.

Mike is talking nonsense, as usual. You don't get free duplicate watches when you revive. If you die, any watches that were in your inventory will stay with you, they won't drop.

If you use celestial portal to switch to Wanda, she will get a new ageless watch and 3 time pieces, because those are her starting items, this is a different case (to be fair, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up in this thread, lol)

inb4 "BUT ON XBOX"

[ArubaroBeefalo]

39 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wanda op because she can eat a blue mushrooms every 2 minutes lol! 

Damn Wanda broke the game.

and dont forget that she revives people, so damn op that is useless if you have wendys or wigfrids being played by people with their 2 arms. Surviving autumn was never that easy

meanwhile lets ignore that at 75% hp she deals a lot of damage or that you can totally evade dangerous situations with her tp watch linked to base, spawning with 3 time pieces (i guess is because of non experience players that paid for the character),etc.

is so clear who are the users who actually played her

 

my personal opinion, ignoring that dst is a bussiness, is that her weapon should be weaker than dark swords (utility vs dps instead of everything) or less mov speed in old age to compensate the range, no time pieces at spawn or at most 1 (just so you cant rush alarming clock without visiting the caves, not because that silly way of farming them with the portal (who has that much moonrock but not more thulecite than needed in 10000 worlds?)) and less age range for middle age wanda. Every other nerf suggestion i read was only aimed to punish noobs which already will suffer with her and wont affect veterans. 

But this is my personal opinion and taste, im not that dumb to think these nerfs are necessary just because i already know how to play. There is players with a lot of experience that cant play old wanda and a lot that cant play her even in young age. 

btw, for those who said "wanda isnt a glass cannon because has 150hp like every other character" do you really think that people who really play her are playing at >26% hp? that is stupid. A true wanda main always plays in old age and 1 AW use over old age if there is crafting planned. Is true that night armour gives too much resistance and her range makes her not feel like a glass cannon but you are healing at 73 age while the clock keeps runnning so you wanna pay attention. Nobody is saying that she is super hard, come on, is dst, you only use F to hit and WASD to move, what do you expect?

and i know all of this because i played her and experienced all the content the game has to offer. Im not talking about what i saw on a stream, neither im talking after playing her for just 1 or 2 season where i only picked grass and twigs, neither lying about what you can do as her and a long, sad and dumb etc

19 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

inb4 "BUT ON XBOX"

im starting to think that xbox means other thing i cant say

he didnt experience most of the content but spam how op is wanda. Later:"console players cant kite deerclops, just old wolf because was op"... 

 

[SecretPizzaMan]

3 minutes ago, SonicDen220 said:

Mike is talking nonsense, as usual. You don't get free duplicate watches when you revive. If you die, any watches that were in your inventory will stay with you, they won't drop.

If you use celestial portal to switch to Wanda, she will get a new ageless watch and 3 time pieces, because those are her starting items, this is a different case (to be fair, I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up in this thread, lol)

inb4 "BUT ON XBOX"

The problem is I also play on Xbox, and I never encountered this. 

Maybe he is saying that when you put your ageless watch in a backpack and then die and resurrect, you will get a extra ageless watch. Even then that seems useless to me.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

The problem is I also play on Xbox, and I never encountered this. 

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

The problem is I also play on Xbox, and I never encountered this. 

Maybe he is saying that when you put your ageless watch in a backpack and then die and resurrect, you will get a extra ageless watch. Even then that seems useless to me.

It Appears that Klei actually DID Silently Nerf Free endless Ageless Watches.. but they did not mention that ANYWHERE in Any Patch Notes…

First Worlds a Endless World.. where I attempt to use the Florid Postern to exploit free Watches.

The World below that is Survival Test as you will see the “Everyone is Dead” Message before I attempt free watches from the Resurrection stone.

I can Admit when I am wrong and in this case I AM WRONG (I apologize) but now I would like to change my Vote that she needs a Nerf to She needs a BUFF.. this Watch simply shouldn’t be removable from her inventory period.. because Without it she WILL DIE there’s no prevention method to stop it.. so Me wanting that one particular clock to stay in her inventory and instead of being able to craft extras instead craft “Speed Ups” to reduce its Cooldown is 125% Relevant and actually something they should Consider.

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

If the darksword became a viable option for her as well that would be awesome, right now there isn't really any purpose is using the riskier option between DS and AC. Alarming clock just completely outshines it.

The Dark Sword doesn't need to be a viable option for her.  The fact that she can use it well is pure flavor, but she has her own unique weapon which is the obvious centerpiece of her kit.  There is no reason she shouldn't be using this.  Might as well argue Warly's portable crock pots should be nerfed so that normal crock pots are viable for him.

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High risk/high reward and challenge are not the same thing.

Sorry - there is probably some confusion.  I don't mean a "challenge character" as in a character you pick that is self-punishing or hard mode, but just that playing a glass cannon is challenging in that you need to be more vigilant on defense than you would be for other characters.  When I first started fighting bee queen and dfly I would cook up a stack of 20+ perogies, and like 10+ armors because I didn't know how to fight them well enough to win otherwise.  Wanda doesn't really have that option.  She has to kite and you have to learn how.

I've played a lot of moba and fighters, and glass cannon characters aren't too uncommon.  When you see someone deal 80% of their opponent's life bar in 1 combo it looks OP, but then you see that same character lose over 50% of their life bar to a basic bread and butter combo and it comes together.  If they never get hit, you never see this weakness.  It looks like its all wins.

I think its okay to ask the question "is she glass enough."  I've seen some decent arguments that she isn't, and I'm willing to hear what changes people might make.  I don't think there is any reason to tone down her top end kit though - just like I don't think there was any reason for Klei to nerf Wolfgang like they did :\ imo they could have simply reworked his hunger into working out, left him with the speed, and things would have been k.  Taking away the speed AND making him stand still just leaves him as a bland damage character :\

 

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

btw, for those who said "wanda isnt a glass cannon because has 150hp like every other character" do you really think that people who really play her are playing at >26% hp? that is stupid. A true wanda main always plays in old age and 1 AW use over old age if there is crafting planned. Is true that night armour gives too much resistance and her range makes her not feel like a glass cannon but you are healing at 73 age while the clock keeps runnning so you wanna pay attention. Nobody is saying that she is super hard, come on, is dst, you only use F to hit and WASD to move, what do you expect?

idk, there may be merit to the "young Wanda op meta."  I haven't played that way myself because I'm greedy and why would I play a power character like that without tapping into the full of their kit?  So of course I never leave Elder once I get my AC unless I'm going to craft a lot.  I want my damage bonus ready for a hound wave, boss spawn, shark jumps on my boat, etc - ironically this perfectly reflects the problem with making Wolfgang pump weights to get his damage boost...  He gets put so far away from his damage boost that you're better off just picking Wigfrid.

I think I might try playing this young Wanda style and see how it feels.  Looking at the numbers I can see why someone would think she might be too strong at that age.  Attack speed means a bit less when you're fighting small health bars.  Dealing 80 damage per hit in young form is pretty high...  If I were playing Willow and had the option of a ham bat, a dark sword, or a 80 damage whip that only cost 4 nm fuel to refuel I'd take that whip in a heart beat.  So while I would certainly play Elder Wanda, as all true Scotsman.. I mean as a true Wanda main does, I can see why someone might think "idk about Elder, but I'll still take that AC yo"

[QuartzBeam]

Make every use of the Backtrek/Rift Watch deduce 0.10$ from the player's Steam Wallet and disable those watches completely if the player has insufficient funds.

And there you have it. Balanced Wanda.

[Pig Princess]

I hate the fact that Wanda is overpowered and took away unique thing from other particular characters (by doing what they do but better), but I voted "no". Why? Mainly for 2 reasons: 1. Overpowered is a state defined by comparison and therefore nerfing isn't the only way to balance things; 2. Even if nerf is needed, it may be lazy type and harm experience, or well-thought and enrich experience (mainly due to choices being not obvious), and majority of suggestions about Wanda or Wendy belong to "lazy" approach, which I can't agree with.

Also I think everyone here can agree that game becoming more fun to play is the goal in the end, regardless of whether one suggests nerf, buff, tweak, writes long posts with analysis, etc.

So let's look at Wanda's upsides, downsides and their combination working together closely.

1. Teleportation network established with backtreck and rift watches.

Spoiler

Saving travel time is very powerful upside, as well as the fact that one can skip the way back and all the danger that is there (relevant in ruins and atrium, but escaping from sandstorm before desert goggles available - to fight hounds, for example - also counts), but each watch costs tusk and has cooldown, therefore is far from being free and braindead to use. Also by skipping travel time one skips all content along the way which can be enjoyable experience, so in a way cost of teleportation includes lost alternative; however, if one is tired of some parts of the game but wants to enjoy others, I think being able to do this choice - skip content - is a good thing.

But this is no doubt overpowered compared to means of teleportation other characters have available, with or without Wanda on the server. Telelocator focus and staff are unusable in the caves and between shards, can create only a single 2-way connection on the surface and very costly to use one, which means no proper teleportation network is possible, especially since wormholes can't be telelocated and only limited number of them is generated per world (so one can't reliably count on wormholes to extent possibilities of telelocator focus and staff). Wormholes aren't viable alternative either, because, again, they are randomly placed, can't be relocated, can't generate in the caves, lunar island, ocean biomes, even certain mainland biomes like oasis desert, and there is fixed number available per world no matter how big or small shard is. Lazy deserter despite being reward for fighting a boss is not viable for solo player either and is literally only the way to lower one's enligtement and nothing else. In multiplayer lazy deserter still can't connect points on different shards and needs one person to go all the way to activate deserter for others. But at least it's viable in certain situations and can be viable alternative to rift watch (again, multiplayer and one shard only) because of different initial cost, resource cost per use and no cooldown.

Backtreck and rift watches are already fun to use to many people, as I can see, and simple nerf would only make it less fun. On the other hand, non character-specific means of teleportation are not fun or impossible to use. I think the answer to this problem is clear: buff/rework general means of teleportation. For example, telelocator focus can be made usable in the caves and between shards, lazy deserter usable between shards and solo, wormholes telelocatable, etc. They still won't outclass Wanda's network because of cost per use, time one would need to setup such network, other restrictions influencing precision of use (like number of wormholes and proximity to different telefocuses/lazy deserters). And Wanda's teleportation network would still complement, not rival general teleportation network because of restrictions other means of teleportation have and other uses of the latter (telelocating mobs to set up different farms, using lazy deseter to lower sanity, etc.).

2. Alarming clock power, which consists of damage, range, attack rate, refuelability.

Spoiler

While attack rate is slightly lower than for melee weapon, extremely high damage still makes it very powerful in terms of damage per second , in fact, the most powerful weapon for Wanda which heavily overshadows everything else to the extent that there is basically no choice in terms of weapon dps; long range allows to land first (and often the last needed as well) hit to a lot of things without any sort of kiting, trick attack pattern of bosses and effectively cheese them (Klaus stuck on it's own sack, Celestial Champion in 3rd phase using it's melee attack and missing entirely while Wanda just stands and hits), interrupt movement of mobs (rook's charge without damage, finishing off fleeing mobs like mac tusk). On top of that the only upkeep needed is refueling weapon with nightmare fuel, which is easier to get than for any other character due to shadows having low health and very short attack range; this results in Wanda landing more hits with higher safety before shadows teleport compared to other characters; teleporting shadows maintain distance needed to land even more hits on them, and hits themselves are very heavy to the point of shadows dying in 3 hits. On top of that alarming clock is more efficient in terms of every resource per point of damage compared to dark sword in any of Wanda's forms.

This thing is heavily overpowered, but that is not the only problem: alarming clock basically eliminates every other weapon choice Wanda could make, which quickly becomes repetitive and boring; it also eliminates the need to kite due to combination of long range and high damage on mobs with small health pool and attack range, and even for mobs with medium health pool it's often enough to kite once and destroy mobs inbetween it's attacks and/or before mob comes close enough to attack again.

On the other hand, existing weapons are balanced well and offer different not obvious choices to player: ham bat is infinite weapon but spoils, and spoils quite fast dropping below 50 damage treshold rather quickly, one of the materials for it spoils quickly too; morning star is mediocre weapon for dry invironment, but has the highest dps in wet environment and on targets that are always wet (debths worms), which makes player plan fighting periods more than with any other weapon (+ morning star is the only weapon that can't be buffed with voltgoat jelly, but this is sad rather than fair and interestiong, in my opinion), also morning star is unique in terms of emitting light and being able to charge mobs, as well as it's durability based on time in active use rather than hits or spoilage, so the more skilled player is the more one can get out of this weapon; glass cutter has high damage but low durability on majority of targets, can't be crafted on the go in caves at all and on the surface until lategame (Celestial Champion kill); dark sword has high damage but mediocre durability, and until mid-to-late game is very expensive weapon to use due to living logs cost (treeguards have low chance to spawn early game, mushgnomes require considerable time to check entire grotto (which can be dangerous too after archive switch) and their spawners can't be relocated, Halloween event isn't available most of the time on most servers and due to totally normal trees growing slowly such farm requires a lot of time to produce enough living logs for active everyday usage); thulecite club has good damage, durability and has unique property in the form of shadow tentacles boosting dps and landing additional hits, but has high cost and is craftable only near stationary crafting station in dangerous place (the latter point makes weapon underwhelming, and therefore thulecite club could use significant durability buff or a way to craft it on the go/in more convenient than particular ruins part place); spear has low damage, but no other drawbacks, good durability, extremely common materials,can be crafted on the go and has unique property of being recyclable to ice and fire staves; tentacle spike has good damage, mediocre durability and no drawbacks other than being uncraftable, as well as has no unique features compared to other weapons.

Bosses and mobs were also designed with only melee weapons in mind, and stunlock changes that needed to be done shortly after Wanda's release are proof of it, as well as CC 3rd phase deciding to use melee attack when lacking range to hit standing still Wanda too, not to mention very short attack range of vast majority of mobs.

Since other weapons are mostly ok in comparison between themselves and each of them has situation when it shines (but this situation isn't equal to 100% of the time), it's alarming clock that needs to be changed: either nerfed in a smart way, or tweaked. If one just nerfs overall damage and/or range, this would just make it either not viable, or simply not rewarding enough to use, or would lead to alarming clock loosing it's uniqueness compared to melee weapons. Therefore when it comes to possible nerf, I would prefer nerfing damage and range to tool damage per hit and melee in young form, nerfing damage to around 50 per hit and keeping the same range in the middle-aged form and keeping the same damage and range in the old form. This way dark sword would be viable alternative, as well as other weapons gaining chance to shine for Wanda; Bee Queen fight would have at least 2 different ways to rush/do somewhat efficiently, etc. But I would prefer tweak for alarming clock. Imagine if first hit with AC in old form was just regualar hit, but started cooldown during which each consecutive hit with AC healed mob/boss and applied vulnerability to mob; after mob/boss healing entirely or end of cooldown (could be visual like ageless cooldown) another cooldown started and during it each weapon deals increased damage in range of 3x-4x damage healed (to make up for healed health and compete with normal weapons; example: deal 5000 damage to Fuelweaver with any weapon, heal this with alarming clock, deal in next few seconds around 15000 damage and kill him in 1-2 rounds, alternative: be left with fully healed FW if you don't time your attack well and he summons shield); on top of that, condition could be added for alarming clock to refresh heal cooldown or switch to normal damage. That would make AC not the only choce for fights while simultaneously allowing synergy, not rivalry with other weapons. On top of that finally certain bosses wouldn't be as repetitive to fight since one would need to think about more things than just simply dealing damage and dodging/raising own health.

3. Ageless watch and everything related to healing.

Spoiler

 

On one hand:

  - Wanda's health is constantly depteting,

  - AW healing is interrupted by receiving damage,

  - watches are unstackable and cooldown is present,

  - AW has initial cost;

but on the other hand:

 - for general purposes a single AW (Wanda starts with one) used on cooldown gives 32-12=20 years per day, which is equal to 50 hp per day or 12.5 hp per cooldown,

  - Wanda can craft as many ageless watches as she wants and starts with additional time pieces helping to craft extra watches (+ archives are very safe zone to get extra thulecite and red gems are generally viewed as garbage outside of crafting early purple gems, the only relatively weak point is marble which is not a problem thanks to marble trees and earthquakes),

  - after initial cost AW is comptelety free to use (unlike souls, perogie, etc.),

  - Wanda needs less inventory space than other characters due to:

        - alarming clock being easily refuelable (no need for 3+ dark swords or other weapons),

        - alarming clock having average (but not below average) durability,

        - Wanda herself having damage modifier resulting in less resources overall used in a fight (no need for extra lazy explorers and weather pains in Fuelweaver fight, extra armor including night armor, etc.),

        - Wanda having infinite close range mean of teleportation in the form of backstep watch (which can be used both as a mean of "tanking" without wasting armor durability and health and a way to escape dangerous situation and, again, save armor durability, health, other resources), which results in less armor pieces in the inventory for "tanking", no lazy explorer (and extra copies) needed for Fuelweaver fight, less AW needed for healing in the inventory, etc.

        - Wanda having infinite long range mean of teleportation which allows her to bring more resources than other characters to particular place by teleporting back and forth between desired place and base (walking regularly to place + teleporting to and from base (almost 2x effective inventory), using more pairs of watches to transport even more resources in no time).

        - Second chance watch when used on others result in occupying single inventory slot just because it's a single item on cooldown instead of item + materials for extra copies (compare SCW to life giving amulet + red gems + gold + nightmare fuel, telltale heart + glands + grass + healing items, etc.).

         which she can dedicate to additional AW and healing;

  - Wanda keeps her AW as well as other watches after death. Which is just too convenient: one can easier than other characters return to place of death to retrieve remaining resources, since her weapon is with her, she has free healing and can teleport straight to base for extra armor and weather/darkness protection from res place provided she has backtreck watch leading to base (which is not hard to do)).

  - Everyone, not only Wanda, can loose health over time due to freezing, overheating, starvation, burning, etc., as well as being hit before animation of eating completes. Wanda has no disadvantage compared to everyone else when it comes to stopping damage over time, i.e. can eat, use thermal stone/insulation clothes/fires of different kind/dishes to raise/lower temperature, can avoid standing in fire, etc., and has advantage over everyone else when it comes to avoiding being hit. I don't seriously consider tanking temperature/starvation damage with jellybeans just because one is lazy to eat and has a chest full of jellybeans, do I really need to explain why?

All listed above result in Wanda's:

  - inventory being cluttered to the same extent compared to other characters outside of boss battle, cluttered less during boss battles despite inventory restrictions of ageless watches;

  - better survivability than other characters (excluding Wigfrid) because of the lower cost of healing items per hp restored (0 cost per use after initial setup) and inventory space used (1 AW gives plenty of healing over time, and using more than 1 AW in boss battle is very viable and cheap). In other words, she can maintain/raise hp for free, but other characters always have to pay price per hp restored over and over again.

  - more safety compared to other characters since Wanda:

       - has same 150 hp (let's be honest, she doesn't need to be below 25% health even in some boss battles, not to mention regular fights),

       - even after death keeps all her watches including the one for free healing (+ weapon and means of teleportation of varying range),

       - has extra ways to avoid damage compared to others which makes healing less relevant for her.

As to what to do whith that, I like @Shosuko's idea of ageless watch being uncraftable and never leave Wanda's inventory. Another option with similar result would be inability to hold more than 1 ageless watch: that way one still would be able to disassemble/put away from inventory AW for a short period of time, as well as accumulate AW through celestial portal, but use only one at a time unless one stands in front of chest full of AW, which means relying much more on teleportation and avoiding damage. It would shape Wanda's gameplay in right direction (she was supposed to be glass cannon after all, glass cannons don't tank) in the same way Warly's inability to eat non-crock pot food shapes his.

 

4. Close range teleportation with backstep watch.

Spoiler

 

This is very powerful ability and very thematic; it also has unique property of distance changing with age and requirement to manipulate one's position and to plan movements beforehand; I think it's perfect as is and it itself doesn't need any change, however, the fact that Wanda is supposed to stay old for maximum benefit turns it into Wortox-like soul-hop "tanking", but better. To change this situation I think changing alarming clock and/or giving other Wanda's forms something unique in terms of fights would be enough (since backstep watch is used in fights), for example, my idea of alarming clock tweak and/or adding other shadow weapons with unique properties that would change fight compared to general ham bat/dark swork simple attacks (thulecite club has potential that was never used).

This is power, but I don't think it's overpowered compared to abilities of other characters, and it's also one of the most well-thought mechanics in the whole franchise, as well as very thematic perk, so I wouldn't touch this in order to not break.

 

5. Magic equipment affinity.

Spoiler

I think it's ok, but unnecessary perk, after all Wanda benefits from low sanity more than most of other characters and her favourite food is sanity food, which encourages to stay at high sanity if one prefers this to insanity (and this is enough help). Wanda also saves travelling time and completes fights in less time, which means less sanity is lost due to wearing night armor over time, and due to resource-free close range teleportation she can afford to use armor with less % of protection. She also doesn't really need 95% protection (which turns 25% of hp into effective 100% with 80% protection) since she is supposed to be risk/reward character, as well as since she has numerous ways to avoid damage even without armor (teleportation with backstep watch, big range of alarming clock). To shape her gameplay, I would remove her affinity to shadow equipment (and give it to Maxwell, it would make more sence for him to be better user of shadow and magic equipment).

To sum up this long post: Wanda's design is great, but execution lacks in certain aspects and leads to serious gameplay problems (lack of choice, monotone of gameplay because of that), and because of that she needs tweaks (mostly); well-though nerf, even though unnecessary, could help to shape her gameplay as true "glass cannon" (right now she is just "cannon"), but random nerfs out of hate for character, jealousy of whatever definitely are not a way to go.

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

To shape her gameplay, I would remove her affinity to shadow equipment (and give it to Maxwell, it would make more sence for him to be better user of shadow and magic equipment).

Exactly this is another issue with Wanda that has not been brought up yet. She majorly stepped on Maxwell’s toes thematically. 

They better have something great in mind for Maxwell’s rework otherwise I have no idea what they were thinking adding a character that has a greater and more interesting affinity with (shadow) magic than the magician character who sat on the nightmare throne. 

Wanda has way too many good things going for her. Every point u listed could’ve been a central perk/theme for a new character but they’re all bundled in 1 with Wanda. 

Either they set out to make a busted character unlike anything the game has ever seen from the start or they didn’t really consider what they were unleashing. As is apparent from the fact that combat had to change for the entire cast because Wanda has a busted whip weapon lol 

1 hour ago, Pig Princess said:

Bosses and mobs were also designed with only melee weapons in mind, and stunlock changes that needed to be done shortly after Wanda's release are proof of it, as well as CC 3rd phase deciding to use melee attack when lacking range to hit standing still Wanda too, not to mention very short attack range of vast majority of mobs.

Exactly. Being in denial about this is delusional/wilful ignorance.

compare the first iteration of a whip weapon, tail o’ three cats, with the AC . it’s mindblowing how hard they undertuned the tailothreecats in every aspect because presumably they correctly realized how a whip weapon breaks the combat in the game but then they went on to make the Alarming Clock…

[Maxposting]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

2- You don’t need to use Second Chance Clocks or LGA on Wanda: 

Touchstones/Celestial Portal/Other Players Reviving Her with Taletell Hearts = Free Ageless Watches..

You are talking about unrenewable and often nonexistent touchstones, sure you can exploit these for like 5 pieces as you say, if you are lucky, but that is a one use thing, ruins clearing has more rewards and is renewable. 5 pieces are something for early game, I'd say too much, but usually not enough when you plan to make an actual rift setup.

The celestial portal does not revive you, you are talking about one of your notorious setting toggles that makes you often not learn the basic, default game.

And about other players, some people either prefer to play alone or outright don't have anyone to play with.

Edit: didn't see this page, damn, this is a waste of time as usual

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

1- I never claimed Wendy was a Risk Vs Reward Character

Pretty sure you did-

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

And you call this a Risk Vs Reward Character?

Im a WENDY MAIN and if I happen to be careless enough to get Abigail Killed her 600 hp drops to 150 and any Ectoherbology potions I once had applied to her are no longer in Effect.

Now, this might have been a mistake, but it seems way too intentional for you to say "risk and reward" and then follow with you losing Abigail.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The Dark Sword doesn't need to be a viable option for her.  The fact that she can use it well is pure flavor, but she has her own unique weapon which is the obvious centerpiece of her kit.  There is no reason she shouldn't be using this.  Might as well argue Warly's portable crock pots should be nerfed so that normal crock pots are viable for him.

 

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

If I were playing Willow and had the option of a ham bat, a dark sword, or a 80 damage whip that only cost 4 nm fuel to refuel I'd take that whip in a heart beat

allow me to use your words against you xd

is like wigfrids spear scenario but you will actually use alarming clock in late because of the range

im not talking about nerfing it to the point of being useless. Just to have 2 choices

also being top damage+range+cheap to maintain+so cool sound when old... i think we wont notice a nerf

 

talking about young wanda, the sound when she hits is so damn annoying and ugly, just for that i wont play as young wanda ever xD. 

i think middle age should be tunned down, to much power for just being at 75% hp..

[Mike23Ua]

42 minutes ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

You are talking about unrenewable and often nonexistent touchstones, sure you can exploit these for like 5 pieces as you say, if you are lucky, but that is a one use thing, ruins clearing has more rewards and is renewable. 5 pieces are something for early game, I'd say too much, but usually not enough when you plan to make an actual rift setup.

The celestial portal does not revive you, you are talking about one of your notorious setting toggles that makes you often not learn the basic, default game.

And about other players, some people either prefer to play alone or outright don't have anyone to play with.

Edit: didn't see this page, damn, this is a waste of time as usual

Pretty sure you did-

Now, this might have been a mistake, but it seems way too intentional for you to say "risk and reward" and then follow with you losing Abigail.

There’s Risk involved in having Abigail’s HP and Potions be wasted, but I never said Wendy was a Risk Vs Reward character except for that one time she once had the low HP= Higher Damage thing Wanda Hijacked and ran off with.

With that said: I don’t think it’s fair to realistically expect ANYONE (Including the Developers at Klei) to know every single feature/thing you can do in their game.. People who DO Plain and simply have far far too much “time” on their hands (pun 100% fully intended) You don’t have to fight every boss or complete some puzzle to realize somethings broken & needs tuning- 

And in my particular case When Wanda first Released she Respawn’d after dying WITH Ageless Watch in her inventory (understandable because without it she has no way of preventing dying) AND she used to could Revive Infinitely & for Free off haunting her own Second Chance Clocks HOWEVER.. Klei Nerfed the heck out of Second Chance Clock by having it “Break” when Haunted by Wanda.. this change was mentioned and highlighted within the game Patch Notes.

LATER they also Nerfed the Ageless Watch to where she no longer gets one for free from reviving after dying (she used to) this was a Silent change they don’t mention ANYWHERE in ANY PATCH NOTES…

My (Now Non-Existent) issue with Wanda WAS that she used to get this clock back for free Anytime she died.. by throwing the one in her inventory onto ground (as seen in my two demonstrated video’s above) Dying and then Respawning to “Duplicate” this Watch.

NOW I have a NEW Problem with Wanda in the fact she DOES NOT Respawn with this Watch.. no other character can literally “Die” because they don’t have a way to heal up..

SO the TL:DR the PROBLEM still remains.. Klei needs to patch Ageless Watch so it can never ever EVER Leave Wanda’s Inventory.. & if Klei wants to “Reward” Wanda players for gathering the resources to craft Additional Ageless Watches that should instead be a consumable you can Apply TO The Watch that never leaves her inventory to speed up its Cooldown process, And as long as you DON’T DIE the Cooldown time for this Watch is always speed up X however many “Ageless Watches” you crafted & applied to it.

Upon death.. the extra Cooldown reductions should revert the Watch back to default and need making more “Speed Ups” to get it back to faster cooldown rates.

This would allow Wanda players NOT to die infinitely when she’s without the Watch, and also rewards them for crafting “more” of them.

I literally don’t see how this wouldn’t be an Improvement to Wanda.. because as she is NOW if you somehow manage to lose your ageless Watch in any way, your SCREWED.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

allow me to use your words against you xd

I don't see how that is using my words against me.  In Elder Form I don't think there should be any reason to use anything but AC.  Its her signature weapon, in Elder form - I don't think we should have to put it aside because it isn't the best damage option for her.

My comment you quoted was about reducing the damage in younger forms - to force the watch to be used in Elder.  And really, that comment was mostly a consideration of other people's thoughts, not really my own.  I think the watch could be tonned down in young / middle form, but not to force her to use dark swords.  Just to weaken those forms and push players to use Elder for combat.  I like what Pig Princess had to say about that - take away her dark sword affinity and give it to Maxwell.  Wanda uses time magic, Maxwell is the master of shadow magic.  Sure her time magic is fueled by nm fuel, but I think it would be better to give Maxwell back his identity!  His starting items used to be dark sword and night armor originally didn't they?  And he used to gain enough sanity to equip them both without issue.  Super dapper man.

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

If the darksword became a viable option for her

Dark sword is already viable for her. Has the same dps but without the weird slow attacks. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

You don’t have to fight every boss or complete some puzzle to realize somethings broken & needs tuning

you cant do if something is op if you dont experience most of the content

hambat will look op  for how good is for killing spiders if that is the peak of your experience , torches are op if the only goal is to survive winter. The reallity? ham bat is efficient but not an op weapon when you are dealing 50 damage to a 20k hp monster or torches arent that good when you are running from enemies or during a boss fight and need a fire to prevent freezing damage. Do you get the examples?

so there is 0 logic behind being the whole day here talking about how op or how little risk reward wanda has when you dont fight bosses or go to dangerous zones, scenarios where her hp mechanic matters.

sure, she is op, can survive 4 season wow. Try to kill moose goose as her and come later asking for buffs because "dst xbox version is a completely different game" (the truth is that most of the difference are just in your head like how offscreen works)

people DONT care how you play, even if you diseable every danger and just do /sit and chat,. we dont care but it cares when you are always spaming talking non sense, lies, exagerated examples, scenarios where you toggle things (i doubt that you cookie cutter problem was because was set to tons seeing how much you like to lie), etc then it matters

is like if come here saying that wigfrid is useless just because i play without enemies. People wont care that i play without enemies but ofc they will mention it to prove that im wrong

in this topic you are reaching your peak but i know how useless is to explain you things

 

 

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

  I think the watch could be tonned down in young / middle form, but not to force her to use dark swords

agree

10 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I don't see how that is using my words against me.  In Elder Form I don't think there should be any reason to use anything but AC.  Its her signature weapon, in Elder form - I don't think we should have to put it aside because it isn't the best damage option for her.

because as you explained is too good that with any number over 50 damage it would still being a powerful option

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Dark sword is already viable for her. Has the same dps but without the weird slow attacks. 

and without the range which makes the alarming clock has more real dps

[Pig Princess]

I can't believe I forgot about second chance watch section in my previous post. So here we go:

6. Second chance watch. Basically life giving amulet without sleep effect applied to enemies and with different recipe for solo playthrough, which becomes more powerful for multiplayer since it doesn't break. And while not breaking is good and useful (definitely strong tool in Wanda's kit in multiplayer invironment), since enemies don't fall asleep and fallen on the ground items don't reequip, one can easily die second time due to enemies or darkness (unless one had lantern in the main inventory/equipped before death and used lantern in the first place as light source). Therefore Wanda or anyone else often still needs to go to place of death and help person who is about to resurrect with SCW, which makes item more situational than it seems.

Therefore I think it doesn't need nerf or buff, but tweak: resurrected player should res with stats just before killing blow (e.i. from 150 to 1 health, depending on reason of death, same logic for hunger and sanity) and with items reequipped automatically, as well as other items being put in the inventory to corresponding places; however, no sleep effect should take place and recipe should be made more expensive; as for cooldown, it can be made longer (chest of SCW would do res job just fine, and I don't think resurrecting whole team without resources spent in no time singlehandedly is healthy experience for the game about resources and survival); in case some items around dead player were picked by someone else they shouldn't duplicate and should just be considered non-existent for reequipping/picking process: that can be achieved by setting small radius around player's death place in which items are picked/equipped. This would lead to SCW being useful for solo player and preferrable alternative in certain conditions (solo or multiplayer), but not 100% of the time.

My conclusion on topic stays the same though.

[Frosty_Mentos]

After at least 6 or 10 of these threads - no. She's fine. Moving on.

[Eughstein]

so you guys came to any conclusion here?

[Maxposting]

6 minutes ago, Eughstein said:

so you guys came to any conclusion here?

some xbox players do not play the game