Should wanda be nerfed?

[HowlVoid]

2 hours ago, Pig Princess said:

You misunderstood me and to correct this I briefly explained what happend from my perspective. I also don't want to look like I ignored your claims, or like I don't have anything to say to defend myself. Anyway, I see you are not willing to stop, so until you do, consider this message my last response to you.

You started the accusations, there is no "my perspective" you straight up accused me of something I didn't do. You expect to just sit there while you fabricate something that didn't happen? Get real.

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Don't. Put. Words. In. My. Mouth.

Or something, @HowlVoid. As you can see, I never said that you are maining Wanda or play only as her. I tried to be generally helpful even though I'm irritated because of your attitude, since if you play a character and game becomes boring, switching character might help regardles of power level, just because different characters provide different experience in vast majority of cases.

Lmao "play someone else" is supposed to mean what exactly? You have been assuming so much in this conversation it is alarming. You assumed I don't play anyone but Wanda, yes, you do. Other wise how else am I supposed to interpret "play someone else". Those are your words, no one is putting words in your mouth. You think I have been playing Wanda so long that my view on power levels is skewed. I explained I main Wormwood, with malice or insult behind my words and you're the one getting mad. 

You assumed I told you to burn.

You assumed that I take my anger out on people online.

You have been assuming my tone as an angry one.

You have been insinuating so much in this conversation and putting words in my mouth.

"Don't. Put. words. In. My. Mouth."

Jesus, take a chill pill. 

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So either you definition of "limited" somehow doesn't match common definition/understanding of "limited", or you just contradict yourself.

You keep taking things out of context. You just keep taking out specific points that I've made without the context of what I'm replying to.

You said that Wortox souls are limited in comparison to Wanda's healing. 

Look at my comment, I'm not even talking about the AW. The point I was making is that your claim of (the healing you mentioned) is more limited than AW is not true. The ageless watch is comparable to he healing available to everyone else. 

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so are you saying that she has no healing-related downside since her healing is on par? Then what was rant about, about reduction of healing of risk-reward character? About restricting healing for supposed "glass cannon"? If she truly has no problems with healing as you imply, but is supposed to be risky to play and/or glass cannon, we might have a problem here (and cannon part is already there, guess what is missing?).

I have never said that her healing should be restricted? Are you talking about what shosuko said?

I've said that her healing can be negated due to it being prone to interruptions and that she can be hard-locked into a death. 

She is a risk an reward character however that risk no longer going to be there if the player is skilled. That point seems to keep flying over your head.

Player skill ≠ character power

When comparing that she has to functions within 37hp to obtain her highest damage damage potential, than yes she is a glass Cannon. We're talking about 37hp, she can die within 3-4 hits to some bosses even while wearing night armor. Healing or lack there of does not contribute to the classification of her being a glass Cannon. The small amount of hp in which she has to work is the reason she is a glass Cannon. 

 

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If glass cannon can brute force a problem, that in itself is a problem. That means it's downside is not working.

Brute force a problem? I have no clue what you're talking about.

She does just about everything else a combat oriented character can do in regards to the combat part of Wanda. 

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Anyway, I didn't mean to insist on nerf of AW even if it was a real possibility, I repeated that so many times at this point.

You where on the same boat of reducing her healing to 1 AW.

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Why do you bring up OP-ness of ageless watch - in response for me - and advice me to apply this logic - regarding OP-ness of AW - to Wanda, if you are not claiming that I called AW OP? Doesn't this mean you are putting "AW is OP" words in my mouth, whether you say it directly or respond with that in mind? We are very likely to have a contradiction there in your claims if that is so.

You didn't understand the point I was trying to make.

You keep claiming that her healing is "free", then if healing is only needed for certain situations than why is her healing even mentioned when considering if she's fragile or not? 

Why does it matter if it's "free" if (even you seem to realize) that healing isn't needed in mass? 

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Except Wanda has her own methods in addition to kiting.

Her "methods" that "facilitate" kiting are very different than kiting. This is how I know you don't play a lot of Wanda. The random nature of her close range "hops" are very liable for cause of death. The very niche situations where her watch is preferable over regular kiting are tier 3 shadow bishop, dragonfly and fw bone cage. You can just walk out of range of the bone cage, tier 3 shadow bishop has extremely tight timing and the hops have hardly an advantage over regular kiting for dragonfly (on top of teleporting causing dragonfly to lose interest and run back to her spawn point).

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Sometimes these methods allow to kite otherwise unkitable or very hardly kitible enemy, like Fuelweaver's bone cage attack. Do you think Guille did those fights on the 2nd attempt or something? Do you think everyone else would need the same or lesser amount of attempts? Don't underestimate how hard it is to kite something in certain circumstances and therefore avoid damage.

Unkitable? All you need to avoid the bone cage is enough speed, Guille himself has said so. And her backstep watch and the lazy explorer both take one slot, not to mentioned there isn't much of a need to use a lazy explorer for anything else so it's not like they're in short supply or something.

As for unkitable? There isn't anything in the game that is unkitable. I wouldn't even use the backstep watch for any boss besides dragonfly or fuelweaver because of how risky it is.

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It would be fair trade if Wanda had to be insanely better at avoiding damage (i.e. Wanda player insanely more skillful) than anyone else and get insanely better reward than anyone else because of that, but alas.

Yeah because you need tons of skill to use other characters. You need so much skill to play a mini game and achieve mightyness, you need so much skill to get Wendy on an ornery beefalo and press attack, you need so much skill to kill a voltgoat for Warly or you need so much skill to build a couple catapults.

What you're suggesting wouldn't make any sense withing the dynamic that already exists in the game.

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Character selection is also a choice player makes, therefore when one character outshines others by so far it is not a healthy thing. You can argue about meaning of "overpowered" therm, but I have a feeling you understood me perfectly fine and chose to ignore it, since otherwise you wouldn't have anything to say. I already responded on your quibbling towards me using "overpowered" therm.

I have no idea what character choice has anything to do with this, you sound like Zark and with what happened with Wolfgang.

I'll remind you take Wanda isn't the most popular character in the game not should that matter.

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Except Wolfgang has only damage, not range. It is range that allows to walk straight to mob without kiting, furthermore, with a group of small mobs it's range that allows to avoid attacks of remaining creatures much easier, which Wolfgang lacks.

Wolfgang has to press left for a quarter of a second to create a chain and instant kill a horde of spiders.

Again, that's a problem with Wolfgang, not Wanda. A problem with utility many of use where hoping to avoid during his refresh but, oh well.

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No, it's not. There are necessary and sufficient conditions. To better understand this imagine one is guessing if object in front of them is cube. Necessary condition would be have 8 peaks, 12 edges and 6 facets, since there is no cube with different amount of peaks, edges and facets, however, it wouldn't be sufficient condition because parallelepiped would also match this criteria. Condition "all angles should be orthogonal" would be also necessary for the same reason, but not sufficient criteria for defining cube, since orthogonal parallelepiped would match this criteria. Condition "all facets should be equal" in addition to all previous conditions would form sufficient criteria since there is no other object matching all of them.

Back to the balance discussion. When I say "Simply being better isn't sufficient condition to be overpowered", I mean that if something is better than other thing it may or may not be overpowered (necessary criteria), however, when I say "when difference is that large, it is" I mean if difference is very big, thing in question can only be overpowered, it cannot be not overpowered, which makes it sufficient criteria: from my perspective there is no state of universe when being abysmally better is not overpowered, which makes it sufficient criteria just like in example with cube.

Again, your perception of the AC being overpowered is overblown. 

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You may disagree with what I call "overpowered", but there is no logical contradiction in my worlds regarding that.

That I do.

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Remark: damage is around 2x of dark sword, that is not "slightly" better than simple dark sword damage. Remember: attack rate is slightly lower, but base damage, which is 81.6, is multiplied by 1.75x damage modifier Wanda has in old form, which results in 142.8 damage per hit. After taking into consideration attack speed, dps is around 2x of dark sword in old form (in comparison to damage of dark sword in hands of every other character except mighty Wolfgang). If you are talking about young Wanda, then yes, damage is comparable to dark sword. However, I have a question: why does Wanda have refuelable dark sword with extra range while she also sits at 100% hp, has teleports, as well as all other gimmicks? Why does middle-aged Wanda has even more than that while she sits at 75% of hp?

Because there are different valid ways to play Wanda. It depends on how much risk a character is willing to make. 

Remember Wanda IS a combat character, you keep looking at the AC as something separate from Wanda rather than a combat perk. 

She can be Wigfrid, Wolfgang or something in between.

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Compare this to Maxwell and you may realise what I mean.

Maxwell isn't a combat character.

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But even without comparison I don't see any risk, only reward in that character that is supposed to be risk and reward - when it comes to young and middle-aged form, old form is debatable (I think there is still lack of risk and overtuned reward). Why 75% and 100% difference doesn't really matter? Because of number of surprise unarmored hits character can take before death, and highest numbers belong to debth worm (75 hp), shark (90 hp), most bosses in not enraged form (75 hp, 100 for Bearger) and 2 terrorbeaks (100 hp). 150*0.75=112.5 hp, which is greater than all of this.

If you don't see that amount of hp as a risk than congrats you're a good player.

*Shrugs*

The devs don't exactly base the game around the what may or may not be the highest skill possible from a player for this game and they shouldn't. 

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Other characters are mostly fine, difference between them is not that pronounced in comparison to Wanda vs anyone else. In that case it is just less resource intensive to bring Wanda on the level of others, not others to her level. Moreover, you are not the only person who admits game becoming boring and who played Wanda a lot. It may be a coincidence, but it doesn't look that way to me.

I said the game is boring? Where? Or are you assuming I think that?

And where did I admit to play Wanda "a lot"? Or are you assuming, again.

I main Wormwood.

Hmmm, I wonder if you're just gonna reiterate that you never said that I main Wanda despite what you're saying above.

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Anyway, when tech is already there like with means of teleportation but it has some problems (those problems existed far before Wanda), I wrote that I'm all for brinning others to her level. Alarming clock, however, has it's own problems, and other weapons are balanced well, therefore it's alarming clock that is logical choice for changing.

So you want to make the combat character, a non combat character?

As she is now she is fine. She has comparable damage to Wolfgang with some risk or as a but better than Wig with no risks but no team perks for combat. 

She has a great place in between those character while only stepping on Wolfgang's toes but that Klei's fault for not giving him any good utility.

But at the same time Wolfgang has no downsides.

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When it comes to keeping to go back and forth it is you, in this post and previous. I had to change order of my quotes of your comment multiple times because your thoughts on particular aspect are all over the place. That means your comment is unstructured, which is exactly "going back and forth", not mine.

Going back in forth was referring to you back tracking saying healing is only needed in small amounts except for certain scenerios and then you pointing out that Wanda gets "free" healing and that it affects her status as a glass Cannon.

Also I feel like if I said this to you, you would claim "rude" or "insult". Not sure why you get to make personal attacks but when you assume that I do it, I'm an angry person?

Hmmm...

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I guess you meant "ac", i.e. alarming clock (did you write your comment in a rush?), in which case you said it yourself. Ranged weapons are there, but they are either not effective, or very expensive and impractical to use. To confirm this you can try to remember how much people use boomerangs as damage dealing weapon or blowdarts on bosses and hound waves/clockworks (biggest resource sink), and if someone does, what day count is that (under 100 or over 1000). You can remember tail'o'three cats and slingshot damage, which is low exactly because DST combat limitations, to still encourage to fight melee in vast majority of cases.

You missed the point. Range working as intended and does not break the balance of the game regardless if enemies are developed around melee or not.

I'm sure they gave it it's range so Wanda does not have to risk being hit by smaller mobs as they're generally not hard anyways. Are you assuming the devs have the AC range without any thought?

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Do you claim that Klei should rebalance things around exploits and bugs?

I never said they should?

I said that cheesing Klaus, if you decide to do that, is hardly a trait inherit to the AC.

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Which can be fixed any moment, by the way? I'm not judging anyone using them, nor I'm pretending they are not there, but it's logical to assume that developers rebalance things according to game experience they intended. They may like unexpected result and keep it, but they may bring game to the state that corresponds with their intention better. And latter happens much, much more frequently, whether someone likes it or not.

I have no idea why you're talking about patching bugs as that isn't relevant. All I meant was that if something is exploitable or not shouldn't be a point regarding balance.

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Example: in DST one could waterwalk at some point, and can voidwalk even now. Do you claim that it would be perfectly fine if new content required waterwalk and voidwalk as the only mean of experiencing it? Same for duplication bug with chester and seasons changing on reload in DS single-player. I don't think so.

Yeah, I have no idea what you're even talking about. When did I say that any content in the game should require exploits? 

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But there is a bunch of weapon in the game, reasonably balanced, I should say. I enjoy diversity and use different weapons in different situations. Btw, easy dark swords are Wormwood's advantage, but he is not limited to them. I still used morning stars, glass cutters and bat bats (backup weapon for healing) as him, and he offers other interesting choices unlike Wanda. Which is main thing I wish to enjoy playing her - choice and variety.

Morning stars when they have higher damage, correct?

Class cutters when they have higher damage, correct?

Darkswords when you need the higher damage, correct?

They all have the same function and replacing one with another is hardly "variety". Not to mention that's 3 weapons of which one is very, very niche. 

They only differentiate in the means in acquiring them but all function the same. All you're doing with the AC is removing the downtime of acquiring those resources which some character have a means to facilitate that. AC is her one unique perk that differentiates her from Wolf or Wig in combat and a slight team perk as other character can use the other weapons in the game.

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Do you really think it's not obvious how angry and irritated you are?

Well, I'm not. I was disappointed and sad that you we're fabricating lies about me without dm'ing me about a personal grievances though. Wether you did it intentionally or not does not excuse you from bringing an outside conflict into the forums where that is prohibited. What else but drama was it supposed to accomplish?

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Also from previous comment:

 

For me it's contradicting statements because it's strange how "best utility" doesn't translate to "best experience"

The fact that utility and experience are words that means completely different things should be a hint. Also, tsk tsk, not using the correct context where that experience is my personal preference and I mentioned that I can perceive balance outside of my preferences. 

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for you. Then what is best for you and why doesn't it match experience that is "best" for you?

Because I can perceive balance outside of my preferences.

As this is a sandbox game that's is 100% open ended, getting somewhere quicker doesn't really accomplish a whole lot. You can't exactly waste time quicker.

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Since you didn't define best, I made this logical assumption; otherwise you should be less vague and write "it is biggest time savior" or something else more specific. "Best" has just too vague interpretation, which is why if I use it, I always try to specify.

Maybe you should read with your eyes, as you told me. By the way my tone has never been in anger but rather a mix of amusement, bewilderment, and a hint of sassy-ness. 

[Eughstein]

19 pages...

[Mike23Ua]

42 minutes ago, hhh2 said:

ADD MORE POSTS TO THE THREAD

More like: Klei why haven’t you locked this thread yet? Are you leaving this open because you may actually have plans to nerf Wanda & your using this as a way to gauge the player base before applying said nerfage?

I mean it’s pretty safe to say that Pre-Rework Wolfgang was “Above” where klei wanted him in what he could do.. and if Wolfgang is supposed to be at the top of the totem pole in power- Then anyone that is currently Above Reworked Wolfgang is liable to also be brought down a peg or two.

It is the whole “Nerf x Into the Ground!” Cries from these forum members that is the same REASON I stopped playing Both WX78 & Wickerbottom, because I would hate getting used to and enjoying how they play now only for them to be subject to changes later.

Of course, All of KLEI’s Reworks (including my least favorites Wigfrid & Wolfgangs) have been excellent so I’m sure any “Nerfs” they do to WX & Wicker will be justified & hopefully they’ll make their playstyles more unique and interesting with some fun Robot & Liberarian with the powers of Merlin gameplay.  

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Are you leaving this open because you may actually have plans to nerf Wanda

sure, they are taking notes from your suggestions lmao

[Yuuko]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

More like: Klei why haven’t you locked this thread yet? Are you leaving this open because you may actually have plans to nerf Wanda & your using this as a way to gauge the player base before applying said nerfage?

I mean it’s pretty safe to say that Pre-Rework Wolfgang was “Above” where klei wanted him in what he could do.. and if Wolfgang is supposed to be at the top of the totem pole in power- Then anyone that is currently Above Reworked Wolfgang is liable to also be brought down a peg or two.

It is the whole “Nerf x Into the Ground!” Cries from these forum members that is the same REASON I stopped playing Both WX78 & Wickerbottom, because I would hate getting used to and enjoying how they play now only for them to be subject to changes later.

Of course, All of KLEI’s Reworks (including my least favorites Wigfrid & Wolfgangs) have been excellent so I’m sure any “Nerfs” they do to WX & Wicker will be justified & hopefully they’ll make their playstyles more unique and interesting with some fun Robot & Liberarian with the powers of Merlin gameplay.  

you're*

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

you're*

Spoiler

You know, I don’t really need my spelling corrected people who write books Stephen King, JK Rowling, Edgar Allan Poe, they don’t spend there time worrying about proper spelling, because if they did.. their ideas that are floating about in their head would never get written down to paper & somewhere along the way of trying to make sure their commas, punctuations are in the right spot or the words are spelt correctly they lose track of the plot they were trying to write.

Thats usually why there’s a writer.. & then there’s an Editor.

And by the way yes, I failed the heck out of English/Language classes.. 

But my MATH teacher absolutely loved the stories I wrote even if my grammar teacher criticized them for being inadequate to her proper spelling standards.

I’ve seen actual video game developers misspell the words in their games, it happens.

My little sister has Dyslexia so for her.. words are jumbled up & backwards meaning that literally every video game she plays I have to read the text for her for, now.. let’s see you guys play DST AND have to stop every 2 seconds to read an inspection quote for someone who can’t read.

(DST really doesn’t offer any kind of help to people with reading disabilities to help them play either.. some games would have like I don’t know a built in Audio aid or something to that effect.)

Im also spoiler tagging this because it’s off the topic of rather or not Wanda needs a nerf. Wanda’s also probably one of the WORST characters the reading impaired could play, because you don’t see an “Age” on her clock until you stand still & pull up the stats menu, so the only way to gauge if she’s dying while on the move is through her quotes “I don’t have much time left, I still have a little time” etc..

The watch could have a better visual representation of how much age is on it maybe by having the lens crack more and more and the clock rust or something, maybe it flashes with pretty colors in the proper age range..

Trying to play the game AND Read the game to another person playing on a tv screen across the room from you is complicated.