Should wanda be nerfed?

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, abrocator said:

I guess? That’s the only scenario in which I could concievably think of her as “OP”: very defensive play which doesn’t unlock much of the content of the game.  If you play to kill bosses and unlock content then she is definitely not OP.

For newbies? Maybe.. for experienced players that know how to play the game? No..

Wanda is only hard if you don’t know how to abuse her clocks (by abuse I mean craft a whole bunch of them and leave them near X boss you want to fight)

In addition to this: I’ve Single Handedly killed Bee Queen by standing off screen Somewhere and giving a Single Wilson player a couple Football Helmets and a Hambat, and every time he died just reversing his death with Second Chance Clock till the boss is dead finally.

Im a Wendy Main and When Abigail dies I can resummoning her.. but to be able to do that with other actual real players?? 
Hahahaha Game Over.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, abrocator said:

Carrying five, ten, or fifteen ageless watches compared to carrying five, ten, or fifteen stacks of healing items.

One is reuseable the other needs to be refilled.

[HowlVoid]

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

You'll never get to sleep as wicker even if you tried.

I worded that incorrectly, if I never sleep with any character (save once in the ruins with Wormwood) why does it matter if Wicker can't sleep?

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Some drawbacks are there only to shape how the character can approach situations.

I'll agree some downsides are flavor, but they can still be so irrelevant that they don't even shape that characters gameplay. Like I said, they impact everyone differently.

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Others are to punish for certain actions.

It's the opposite of people calling Walter's slingshot useless even when it has a clear use. 

Drawbacks aren't always omnipresent, but they continue to serve a purpose, and it's pretty easy to infer how they were meant to be punishing/avoided.

This is just alot of mental gymnastics.

I'm saying drawbacks present a clear obstacle that can be overcome with some character ingenuity or game ingenuity. 

It will affect how the player approaches different facets of the game so they do indeed matter.

 

 

You're saying that once the tools to overcome these obstacles are obtained, drawbacks are hardly existant.

Oh really?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

No, you're still not understanding, some downsides don't affect gameplay and simply don't matter, but it depends from player to player. I don't sleep with characters so wickers insomnia doesn't play any role. Similarly I never eat stale or spoiled food so her other downside of less effects from stale or spoiled food doesn't matter to me.

[JustExo]

Winona's op, but thats fine

I think the issue is how selfish she is more than anything else. She uses up resources that everybody else uses for things that only she can use, which is unfortunate. 

[abrocator]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wanda is only hard if you don’t know how to abuse her clocks (by abuse I mean craft a whole bunch of them and leave them near X boss you want to fight)

OK.  Have you actually done this?  Or are you theorizing?  Every clock costs thulecite fragments.  So you can’t just craft a horde of them like beekeepers hats.

95% of items are easier to “craft a whole bunch of them” and leave them near X boss.

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In addition to this: I’ve Single Handedly killed Bee Queen by standing off screen Somewhere and giving a Single Wilson player a couple Football Helmets and a Hambat, and every time he died just reversing his death with Second Chance Clock till the boss is dead finally.

You mean two-handedly.  How many days did that take? If you didn’t continually craft football helmets he must have died in two hits or so every time.

[Cloakingsumo198]

11 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

if I never sleep with any character. why does it matter if Wicker can't sleep?

Seperate yourself from the character. 

The entire "what if" scenario is constantly getting in the way when you're smart enough to know better alternatives.  Yet you knowing better doesn't make characters suddenly lose effectiveness in their traits.

What is the point you're even trying to make Howl?

14 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

but it depends from player to player.

Are you arguing for the player base or yourself? Are you teaching how to play, or are you arguing why some characters don't have enough drawbacks.

[abrocator]

19 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

One is reuseable the other needs to be refilled.

I’d take five stacks of pierogies over 15 ageless watches every single day.  No contest.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Just now, abrocator said:

I’d take five stacks of pierogies over 15 ageless watches every single day.  No contest.

Well you either get regular healing or you get to be Wanda gotta choose somewhere buddy.

[abrocator]

Just now, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Well you either get regular healing or you get to be Wanda gotta choose somewhere buddy.

That is obviously implied/implicit. Five stacks of pierogies for a regular character is more powerful than 15 ageless watches are for Wanda.  There.  Did I really have to spell that out for you?

[Mysterious box]

Just now, abrocator said:

That is obviously implied/implicit. Five stacks of pierogies for a regular character is more powerful than 15 ageless watches are for Wanda.  There.  Did I really have to spell that out for you?

Context matters are you using 5 stacks of pierogis every 2 mins? Also which saves more time? I'm not arguing one being absolutely better than the other but both have their merits plain and simple.

[abrocator]

 I’m obviously not using five stacks of pierogies every two minutes.  Don’t try to be cute.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, abrocator said:

 I’m obviously not using five stacks of pierogies every two minutes.  Don’t try to be cute.

And I'm obviously not using 15 ageless watches.

[Cloakingsumo198]

5 minutes ago, abrocator said:

That is obviously implied/implicit. Five stacks of pierogies for a regular character is more powerful than 15 ageless watches are for Wanda.  There.  Did I really have to spell that out for you?

A grossly exaggerated comparison made to make Wanda's ageless watch look like crap.

Why don't you compare an actual likely amount of healing items. A single watch heals around effectively 50 HP per day, add in another watch and that one can heal for around 80.

So with 3 watches wanda can heal effectively heal 150-210 HP each day cycle with just 3 watches alone. And she won't always be rewinding all the way back to her young age anyways.

 

[HowlVoid]

14 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Seperate yourself from the character. 

The entire "what if" scenario is constantly getting in the way when you're smart enough to know better alternatives.  Yet you knowing better doesn't make characters suddenly lose effectiveness in their traits.

What is the point you're even trying to make Howl?

Are you arguing for the player base or yourself? Are you teaching how to play, or are you arguing why some characters don't have enough drawbacks.

I'm surprised you don't even know what what point I'm trying to make given I've pointed it out several times. 

Some downsides don't matter, they don't affect gameplay and don't serve a greater purpose.

It's so simple yet I'm not sure why you've decided to make a big deal about. I've tried to explain to you that it may be due to preference or skill, but you've seem to have chose this hill to die on. 

[abrocator]

44 minutes ago, Eughstein said:

you can say same for literally any other character

Are you having a hard time understanding this or what?  My point, which I have tried to make multiple times, is that the only playstyle in which she is arguably OP is when she porpusefully plays in a gimped way and doesn’t unlock much of the contents of the game. 

“you can say same for literally any other character”

Yes, every character can play like this—and that’s the whole point!  You save some resources on healing items by playing in a way that “every character” can play.  And that is hardly worth it.

3 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

A grossly exaggerated comparison made to make Wanda's ageless watch look like crap.

The context was fighting a raid boss (finally).  And overpreparation.  Did you lose the plot somewhere along the way?

Or you could bring three watches to a solo DF fight.

[Mike23Ua]

13 minutes ago, abrocator said:

OK.  Have you actually done this?  Or are you theorizing?  Every clock costs thulecite fragments.  So you can’t just craft a horde of them like beekeepers hats.

95% of items are easier to “craft a whole bunch of them” and leave them near X boss.

You mean two-handedly.  How many days did that take? If you didn’t continually craft football helmets he must have died in two hits or so every time.

Just because clocks cost Thelucite fragments doesn’t mean there aren’t easier ways to get clocks- You literally spawn into the world with one pre-built Ageless Watch, and enough Clock parts. 

the Archives usually aren’t hard to find either and you can hammer down walls there for Thelucite fragments if needed.

She also gets that Ageless Watch back & Extra clock parts anytime she respawns into the constant so I mean.. it’s not too hard to just intentionally “Die” and deconstruct all your extra watches is it?? She doesn’t even suffer a blacked out health core for dying repeatedly like other characters.

I legit can’t even put Wanda into a High Skill Tier to play: Master?? maybe, but just play casually?? Certainly not a “hard” pick. 
Atleast not for me anyway.

I mean for Wolfgang to even COMPARE to her he would need to spawn into the world with one pre-crafted Gembell and 4 purple gems to make more, getting those things back each time he is Respawn’d.

Is she OP and needs a nerf? I don’t know.. that’s not my place to say: If she gets nerfs I would prefer them be unique and interesting but that’s just me..

Im the type of player who enjoys upsides AND Downsides in a character because they balance out their gameplay to be more unique and different from other character choices.

[HowlVoid]

6 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

A grossly exaggerated comparison made to make Wanda's ageless watch look like crap.

Why don't you compare an actual likely amount of healing items. A single watch heals around effectively 50 HP per day, add in another watch and that one can heal for around 80.

So with 3 watches wanda can heal effectively heal 150-210 HP each day cycle with just 3 watches alone. And she won't always be rewinding all the way back to her young age anyways.

 

Didn't you say not to long ago that you don't even own Wanda?

Please note that what seems great on paper does not carry over perfectly in practice. I'm going to have to take everything you say about Wanda with a grain of salt given you've never even played her.

[Mysterious box]

It's becoming increasingly clear this is becoming less about fair debate and more about I'm right and your wrong and your opinion doesn't matter and is obviously wrong. In other words looks like this topic has peaked and this thread probably needs locked sadly...

[abrocator]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Just because clocks cost Thelucite fragments doesn’t mean there aren’t easier ways to get clocks- You literally spawn into the world […]

OK but you didn’t answer the question.  Have you actually done what you were talking about? I.e. have you crafted a bunch of clocks and left them next to a boss (DF or BQ or FW or whoever) for that easy kill?

I just said that they cost thulecite fragments, not that they are impossible to craft.  They are still way harder to craft than most items in the game.

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She also gets that Ageless Watch back & Extra clock parts anytime she respawns into the constant so I mean.. it’s not too hard to just intentionally “Die” and deconstruct all your extra watches is it?? She doesn’t even suffer a blacked out health core for dying repeatedly like other characters.

If you are referring to Literal Immortal Mode then that obviously doesn’t count.

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I mean for Wolfgang to even COMPARE to her he would need to spawn into the world with one pre-crafted Gembell and 4 purple gems to make more

I mean now you surely jest.  It’s way easier to go max damage as Wolfgang.  Plus he can actually take some damage…

[HowlVoid]

Pretty sure neither side was going to budge from the start. Especially given how some people weren't even reading counter points.

I have been asked, wait what are you arguing about? Way too much lol.

[Cloakingsumo198]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It's becoming increasingly clear this is becoming less about fair debate and more about I'm right and your wrong and your opinion doesn't matter and is obviously wrong. In other words looks like this topic has peaked and this thread probably needs locked sadly...

Yep this is the end.  I don't even know what the argument was about.

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, abrocator said:

OK but you didn’t answer the question.  Have you actually done what you were talking about? I.e. have you crafted a bunch of clocks and left them next to a boss (DF or BQ or FW or whoever) for that easy kill?

I just said that they cost thulecite fragments, not that they are impossible to craft.  They are still way harder to craft than most items in the game.

If you are referring to Literal Immortal Mode then that obviously doesn’t count.

I mean now you surely jest.  It’s way easier to go max damage as Wolfgang.  Plus he can actually take some damage…

For the record, Wanda gets those clock parts back when using Celestial upgrade/ Touch Stones in survival mode too.. 

I understand WHY she gets a free Ageless Watch (she literally would die without it) but unless you die in a Catcoon area, your clocks aren’t going to be stollen and erased from the game world. So you can just Deconstruct (or keep) the extras.

and yes, I HAVE fought bosses by just having a bunch of clocks, that’s her literal “gimmick” Clock Lady.

[abrocator]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

For the record, Wanda gets those clock parts back when using Celestial upgrade/ Touch Stones in survival mode too.. 

Aaah well in that case that is indeed pretty powerful.

[Cloakingsumo198]

23 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Some downsides don't matter, they don't affect gameplay and don't serve a greater purpose.

I'm not dying on any hill, I just don't agree with yours and that's something entirely different.

Other characters could use more downsides sure, but they also are bland as hell so how about they get spruced up first huh?

Wanda's not mechanically weak, she's not boring, she isn't clunky and she is a top tier.

I like her age drawback, I find the age mechanic to be extremely interesting, her alarming clock and backstep watch are finicky to get used to but there's nothing else like it.

She's not fragile. I hate this sentiment, learn to put on armor, how to kite, when to run, or play as young Wanda she still does more damage than other characters so how is she weak in any sense.

Ageless watches, get over it. It's a side-grade but it's not worse. heal often or heal little don't care that's your choice, but learn how to use it effectively and it will still take you far or farther.

Yes, I've been playing Wanda are you happy that I'm not blindly critiquing?

[HowlVoid]

4 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I'm not dying on any hill, I just don't agree with yours and that's something entirely different.

Other characters could use more downsides sure, but they also are bland as hell so how about they get spruced up first huh?

Wanda's not mechanically weak, she's not boring, she isn't clunky and she is a top tier.

I like her age drawback, I find the age mechanic to be extremely interesting, her alarming clock and backstep watch are finicky to get used to but there's nothing else like it.

She's not fragile. I hate this sentiment, learn to put on armor, how to kite, when to run, or play as young Wanda she still does more damage than other characters so how is she weak in any sense.

Ageless watches, get over it. It's a side-grade but it's not worse. heal often or heal little don't care that's your choice, but learn how to use it effectively and it will still take you far or farther.

Yes, I've been playing Wanda are you happy that I'm not blindly critiquing?

Woah, hold on, most of these points touch on things I've never even brought up? When did I say she was weak or boring? I never even said she was fragile, I've only said that you can die as old Wanda if you're unprepared. You can't keep putting words in people's mouths dude. 

At this point I'm fairly certain you're not reading what I'm writing. I'm sorry but I don't partake in one sided arguments. Have a nice day.