Should wanda be nerfed?

[JustExo]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay well- Wanda is bad because of Lag.. there I fixed it for you? Happy..? No mention of platform whatsoever- Just Wanda+Lag=Bad Day to Be Wanda.

Simple Maths.

Why? Because unlike literally every other character who can just keep running away from whatever they’re lagging back towards until the lag stops and they can kill it, WANDA is constantly losing Health in ADDITION to the lag.. so-

Lag is an issue that everyone has to deal with, but it also shouldn't be a factor when talking about character balance imo. Balancing around lag doesn't seem like a good thing to go off of. 

[Pig Princess]

@HowlVoid, first of all I'm not interested in drama, I was just curious because it was the second consecutive time of such attitute (first time - rude and inattentive to person you are speaking to, second - inattentive and superficial reading + hostility). I also considered that being a weird joke back then after I left discord, therefore I didn't say anything bad about you anywhere, after all, I'm not interested in framing you as villain or whatever you imagined. Moreover, you could guess from my whole style of speech here and in discord that I'm not into such "jokes", it is just as rude as if you were cracking jokes about dead glommer when speaking to Terra B Whelch or claiming that Wurt as a character should be deleted when speaking with ArubaroBeefalo, i.e. extremely rude. Now, ironically, your claims and latest post are full of exaggerations of what I wrote, which again supports "rant" explanation.

But as long as you are not willing to continue this, I'm fine with it. Also I genuely don't know what "guuurl" meme means.

I also didn't say anything about who you main. I don't care as long as normal conversation can continue. I don't main Wortox, but I played him for quite a lot of time. Am I not allowed to speak about him? I don't think so. Therefore Wormwood (or whatever, honestly) main speaking about Wanda is perfectly fine to me.

I myself don't main Wanda, but I played Warly long before Wanda became a thing and know very well what means limited healing/dedicating multiple slots to healing items. Blue mushroom every 2 minutes? What about blue mushroom every 3 days (2 consecutive meaty stew)? What about 2 blue mushrooms every 2.5 days (meaty stew + honey ham)? And no, I'm not bringing fishing rods, honey, farm vegetables, etc. with me to any point of the map because Warly doesn't have a luxury to spare some inventory, nor can he teleport really quick to base and back to eat healing food and heal back to full. And no, going out of my way across half the map for ingredients for healing is not an option, I actually want to accomplish something, therefore you know what I do? Play glass cannon Warly without all benefits of old/middle-aged/young Wanda. Same even for Wendy: I'm not going out of my way for blue mushroom forest or grassland. I played Wormwood in Hamlet and SW for significant time too, where he doesn't have easy access to healing via rot, bat bats and miniscule access to healing salves and compost wraps with little upsides. I played Wortox in the ruins and multiple times "muddy sacred" biome (the one deep behind clockwork biomes with a lot of fissures, ponds, slurpers and some debths worms) didn't spawn. Keep in mind that console worlds are much smaller than pc worlds as far as I know, therefore on pc one needs more souls to travell/clear the same area with the same method compared to console (although I never played on console and can't be 100% sure, I'm guessing from difference between large and small worlds on pc). And after all of this playtime Wanda release happens and I see "glass cannon" with "limited healing". Healing rate is limited, true, but to glass cannon level? When she doesn't even need to go out of her way to heal? When she has multiple ways to avoid damage unaccessible to other characters? When she can still brute force a problem with multiple AW? I had some experience with Wanda but it only confirmed my initial thoughts. By the way, I'm not advocating to restrict her to strictly 1 ageless watch, 1 ageless in the inventory would mean that she could have ageless watches in the chests at key points of the map/base and she would still be able to teleport there to fully heal (or to whatever extent you wish). I also wrote that it is not as necessary to touch as fixing other aspects of her kit, nor said I that ageless watches healing was overpowered.

Speaking of overpowered. If one thing is abysmally better than all others, then I think it's overpowered. Simply being better isn't sufficient condition to be overpowered, true, however, when difference is that large, it is. I wrote "overpowered is a state defined by comparison". That means that even if you think I'm misusing term "overpowered", you had perfectly fine opportunity to get what I'm writing, i.e. that I meant abysmally large difference that is unacceptable and should be addressed with one way or the other. Call it whatever you like, you can't deny that teleportation/mobility and combat utility difference between Wanda and others is abysmal, while downside difference is not, and by far. It's not even about Warly, DS Wormwood, etc., it's about the fact that healing needs of other characters for both everyday use and boss fights are exaggerated by particular people, I guess to make Wanda look more "glass connon-y".

I played Wilson for reference some time ago, and you know what? I don't remember when I were mass cooking/eating healing food (>2 pieces per multiple days). It's not that hard, the only fight you really need significant amount of healing is Bee Queen, not even Fuelweaver (all for solo). But Wanda has ways to heal/avoid damage in this fight, in fact more numerous ways to avoid damage than others. That is also why I mentioned other watches in "ageless watch" section, because AW in vacuum seems pretty harsh restriction, but in reality it isn't because of the rest of Wanda's kit. And again, I didn't even write that AW desperately needs a nerf, on the contrary, I wrote that it is not necessary. Although I would like that because from my perspective it would enrich experience, not harm it.

Finally, about breaking the game. Yes, alarming clock breaks the game in numerous ways:

1. You are just walking and straight up 1-shoting small mobs, no need to kite even first of their attacks.

2. Mobs and bosses were designed with melee combat in mind. Celestial champion, Klaus and others whose attacks range is comparable to melee range of players are a proof of it; stunlock changes that were made shortly after Wanda release is attempt of balancing it, insufficient, however. Undertuned tail'o'three cats is also a confirmation of this, otherwise it wouldn't have such low damage and annoying recipe (item needs a buff, btw).

3. Resource efficiency of alarming clock outclasses in any circumstances one of the best if not the best weapon in the game. This by itself wouldn't be a problem if it didn't harm Wanda's diversity of playstyle.

4. Utility of weapon (again, it's not about raw damage, it's combination of it + other properties of weapon) is abysmally larger compared to any other weapon in the game, therefore it breaks balance from my perspective.

13 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Consider yourself educated, no need to thank me (your words btw "no need to thank me" part, but apparently I'm the toxic one.)

I hope we could stop to bring more toxicity though. But if you are hostile to me, I would respond in the same manner. Eye for an eye, you know. But speaking about cooperative strategies, "eye for an eye with forgiving" showed better results then "eye for an eye" and especially "never cooparate" when computer simulation was conducted (google about iterated prisoner's dilemma).

[Eughstein]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Okay well- Wanda is bad because of Lag.. there I fixed it for you? Happy..? No mention of platform whatsoever- Just Wanda+Lag=Bad Day to Be Wanda.

Simple Maths.

Why? Because unlike literally every other character who can just keep running away from whatever they’re lagging back towards until the lag stops and they can kill it, WANDA is constantly losing Health in ADDITION to the lag.. so-

Are you really safely far enough away from that pack of hounds chasing you to rewind your age clock or are you going to A: Be lagged back dead center of them & Die or B: Continue running away from them run out of Age and die over dead from old age?

Either way.. Your Dead, you can thank your lag for that- Regardless of if your playing on a new 2022 Pc, a PC from year 2012, 2002, 1992, Xbox Series X, Xbox Series S, Xbox One, PS5, PS4, Nintendo 64, or Atari 2600.

Usually when i run from hounds i wear armour and I'm not in old age so there is no risk of dying because of aging

[JustExo]

I question how hard Wanda is to play in comparison to other characters tbh. 

Obviously she has less health, and its constantly ticking down (pun intended) but you also have to consider how many options she has in order to compensate for that glaring flaw. 

Alarming clock deals tons of damage which makes many fights last shorter amounts of time, and the fact that its a whip provides a bit of extra comfort

Wanda's backstep watch gives her i-frames, as well as distance from whatever it is that you might be fighting which is also incredibly good and provides even more comfort for the character

Wanda's perk of being able to equip shadow armor when old with no sanity drain, which reduces 95% of incoming damage is also something that provides an extra bit of comfort in the event that a lot of these other fail safes don't work.

And if all that fails: Wanda's second chance watch is a self-reviving telltale heart for her, with no downside, (just like what a tell tale heart is for her if she is playing with other people.)

I think Wanda's perks all act as too much if a cushion between her and the downside of being a glass cannon. Its like if they made a glass cannon, but then put a ton of pillow cushions around it, and just put it in a safe

[Eughstein]

21 minutes ago, JustExo said:

 

Obviously she has less healtht

does she?as i remember she also takes less damage, so she have same hp as wilson

[Cheggf]

37 minutes ago, JustExo said:

I question how hard Wanda is to play in comparison to other characters tbh. 

What is with all of these people who haven't even played Wanda saying she's too easy? Ignoring large parts of her downsides while giving her fake upsides like infinite telltale hearts. Self reviving with the SCW is more expensive than using an LGA.

[Eughstein]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

 Self reviving with the SCW is more expensive than using an LGA.

where?

[Cheggf]

Just now, Eughstein said:

where?

In Don't Starve Together.

[JustExo]

5 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

What is with all of these people who haven't even played Wanda saying she's too easy? Ignoring large parts of her downsides while giving her fake upsides like infinite telltale hearts. Self reviving with the SCW is more expensive than using an LGA.

What is it with all these people assuming that nobody but themselves have played the game?

[Eughstein]

Just now, Cheggf said:

In Don't Starve Together.

I mean, using SCW you get half materials back, so basically you need to only get 2 bone shards and 1 living log to craft them again

So it's cheaper then using amulet

[JustExo]

6 minutes ago, Eughstein said:

I mean, using SCW you get half materials back, so basically you need to only get 2 bone shards and 1 living log to craft them again

So it's cheaper then using amulet

Its not cheaper than a LGA since red gems can be farmed with Vargs and their hounds

So its really only "expensive" by comparison because the alternative is dirt cheap

[Eughstein]

4 minutes ago, JustExo said:

Its not cheaper than a LGA since red gems can be farmed with Vargs and their hounds

So its really only "expensive" by comparison because the alternative is dirt cheap

you can farm bone shards using your friends

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

Lag is an issue that everyone has to deal with, but it also shouldn't be a factor when talking about character balance imo. Balancing around lag doesn't seem like a good thing to go off of. 

I never said she needed to be balanced around it, I was trying to prove a point to that other person that just because I say “Xbox” doesn’t mean I’m turning a thread about Wanda into a Thread about Xbox.

And in fact: the only things “Balance Wise” I’ve said about Wanda is she has an Insanely strong Early Game, spawning into the world with a Pre-Crafted Ageless Watch and 3 Clock Parts capable of helping create 3 more watches of her choice all without needing to go hunting for Thelucite.

And the only “Nerfs” I wanted on Wanda actually DID happen (She can’t endlessly revive herself from Second Chance Watches anymore because they now break when she uses them.. and She can’t Die & Respawn at the Florid Postern, or at a Resurrection Stone and Respawn with free extra Watches and Clock parts.

However… again “Balance Wise” I feel like This Nerf was the wrong call on KLEI’s behalf, because if you manage to LOSE your Ageless Watch (which you can press down on the D-pad with an Xbox Controller to just throw it on the Ground..) If you Die WITHOUT This watch in your inventory (like having it licked out your hand in frog rain then you die..) when you Respawn- At the florid Postern in “Endless Mode” or from any not yet used up resurrection stone- you will now (because of KLEI’s nerf to remove free watches) spawn back into the game WITHOUT your Ageless watch..

The difference between Wanda and -insert any other character here- is that Without this Watch Wanda WILL Die.. there’s nothing you can do to slow it down or prevent it, your on a literal timer to recover the Ageless Watch before you die of old Age.

Now to me… this feels like Klei handled Nerfing the free watches exploit in the WRONG WAY..

Instead what should have happened is she only ever gets just ONE Ageless Watch and it’s permanently locked into her inventory and can’t be thrown down, lost, dropped or deconstructed for parts- And instead of giving the player the ability to craft EXTRA Ageless watches they will instead craft “Time Speed Ups” which will allow her to speed up the cooldown of her Ageless Watch when applied to it.

However- Just like when Wendy is careless enough to let Abigail die.. Any potions applied to Abigail effects are lost and Abigail reverts from 600hp back down to 150hp.

Wanda’s Ageless Clock & craftable Speed Ups for it would work the same way.. if Wanda DIES all her speed ups are destroyed but the Ageless Clock itself just reverts back to its longest cooldown process.

 

I need someone at klei to understand that without this Watch… Wanda quite literally becomes Unplayable, and she’s the only character in the entire freaking game that is capable of becoming Unplayable should she happen to lose this Watch.

The “Skilled” players are going to just chime in saying use so & so or do blah & blah…

But I don’t think locking rather or not people can even PLAY a character they may have paid for behind a certain skill threshold is a good move..

And it needs to be fixed, and for the past 16 or whatever pages I’ve been trying to State this.. but I feel like literally no one is listening.

10 minutes ago, Eughstein said:

you can farm bone shards using your friends

You can Farm Bone Shards by going to a lake using a fishing pole pulling fish out the water and then letting them rot into spoiled Fish Morsel and taking a hammer to that Morsel once it spoils.

[Eughstein]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

However… again “Balance Wise” I feel like This Nerf was the wrong call on KLEI’s behalf, because if you manage to LOSE your Ageless Watch (which you can press down on the D-pad with an Xbox Controller to just throw it on the Ground..) If you Die WITHOUT This watch in your inventory (like having it licked out your hand in frog rain then you die..) when you Respawn- At the florid Postern in “Endless Mode” or from any not yet used up resurrection stone- you will now (because of KLEI’s nerf to remove free watches) spawn back into the game WITHOUT your Ageless watch..

 

maybe it's because you not supposed to drop them????like if you do it as wanda you literally killing yourself lol, it's like saying "i dropped my thermal stone and beefalo hat on ground, died, respawned with portal in winter and now can't play because die of freezing"
 

[JustExo]

11 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I never said she needed to be balanced around it, I was trying to prove a point to that other person that just because I say “Xbox” doesn’t mean I’m turning a thread about Wanda into a Thread about Xbox.

And in fact: the only things “Balance Wise” I’ve said about Wanda is she has an Insanely strong Early Game, spawning into the world with a Pre-Crafted Ageless Watch and 3 Clock Parts capable of helping create 3 more watches of her choice all without needing to go hunting for Thelucite.

And the only “Nerfs” I wanted on Wanda actually DID happen (She can’t endlessly revive herself from Second Chance Watches anymore because they now break when she uses them.. and She can’t Die & Respawn at the Florid Postern, or at a Resurrection Stone and Respawn with free extra Watches and Clock parts.

Ah, I misunderstood the statement, thats my bad

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 need someone at klei to understand that without this Watch… Wanda quite literally becomes Unplayable, and she’s the only character in the entire freaking game that is capable of becoming Unplayable should she happen to lose this Watch.

The “Skilled” players are going to just chime in saying use so & so or do blah & blah…

But I don’t think locking wether or not people can even PLAY a character they may have paid for behind a certain skill threshold is a good move..

And it needs to be fixed, and for the past 16 or whatever pages I’ve been trying to State this.. but I feel like literally no one is listening.

I don't think this is too big of an issue tbh

Wanda is a character that, as @Eughsteinsaid: relies on her watch to keep herself alive, which means its something you have to be attentive of

Being stuck in death loops isn't necessarily unheard of, since if you don't take the proper actions to ensure that: once you ressurect, you don't die immediately afterwards, then you're probably going to find yourself being revived pretty frequently (assuming you have the resources to ressurect yourself in the first place. 

[CameoAppearance]

The frog rain thing is a halfway valid point, but only halfway. You can avoid having items essential to your survival ejected out of your inventory when frogs attack you by storing them at the other end of your hotbar and using the first slot to hold your twigs or grass or something. It seems like the kind of mistake you'd only have to make once, unless you never noticed that frogs knock out the leftmost inventory items first. It's also true that this doesn't only affect Wanda; Wortox's souls and Abigail's flower are some other character-specific items I make sure to store in the rightmost slot, and everybody needs thermal stones.

[abrocator]

I think I should rebind my hotkeys for the first three inventory slots to inventory slot + 3.  That way I won’t have to lose equippable/usable items to frogs.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wanda is bad because of Lag.

wanda is perfect, isnt kleis fault that you are using ADSL connection in 2021

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

And if all that fails: Wanda's second chance watch is a self-reviving telltale heart for her, with no downside, (just like what a tell tale heart is for her if she is playing with other people.)

without downside? did you play her? because is the most expensive reviving item and useless for self reviving: doesnt put enemies to sleep and makes you teleport to the place you died

the rest of your post was already debunked many times in previous comments

 

this topic is and endless loop

1 hour ago, Eughstein said:

I mean, using SCW you get half materials back, so basically you need to only get 2 bone shards and 1 living log to craft them again

So it's cheaper then using amulet

since when bone shards are cheaper than red gems, gold and NF?

56 minutes ago, Eughstein said:

you can farm bone shards using your friends

and you can farn LGA materials by just plsying normaly because they stockpile. The ONLY time i got too many bone shards was playing wurt, with any other character i always lack of them to craft mushlights

 

 

my brain was ready crying with mike's posts but this topic is starting to turn very weird

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, JustExo said:

What is it with all these people assuming that nobody but themselves have played the game?

If you make several blatantly wrong statements back to back I'm going to assume you haven't played the character. If you actually revived with the SCW even a single time you would see that it isn't "free telltale hearts", it's a more expensive version of the LGA. If I said "Wanda is really weak and needs to be buffed. She does less damage than a normal character, has no way to heal since healing foods don't restore her health, and slowly dies over time making her death guaranteed" would you think I played the character?

2 hours ago, Eughstein said:

I mean, using SCW you get half materials back, so basically you need to only get 2 bone shards and 1 living log to craft them again

So it's cheaper then using amulet

Every time I play I get dozens of red gems within the first year. And what are they going to be used for if not reviving? I never use too many of them. Meanwhile bone shards need you to go out of your way to farm and living logs make dark swords, which other people will want to use if you're playing cooperatively. Red gems literally get delivered to you starting in the summer, too.

At best SCW revives are comparable to LGA revives. I still think they're more expensive, but even if you have a hard time finding red gems but are rolling in living logs & bone shards for whatever reason they would still be around the same cost and definitely not free revives "with no downsides".

[Pig Princess]

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

and you can farn LGA materials by just plsying normaly because they stockpile.

In one of my relatively longterm worlds (around 700 days) I legit used 10+ life giving amulets I accumulated from fighting Klaus + ones I crafted from all stockpiled red gems to farm boneshards (2 per amulet, I like sandy turf and dislike turf-less patches in the desert I tend to base in). Reason is this server was solo (so not much skeletons on the map), I cleared ruins multiple times and didn't have much use for red gems since I didn't switch to Winona for catapults on principle. I wasn't Wanda, sure, but important thing is that LGA's tend to accumulate if one doesn't constantly die and/or visits caves for long periods of time, let alone clears ruins and uses meat effigies in case something does go wrong.

Just being in the caves passively provides red gems and gold, and semi-passively nightmare fuel (via killing shadows from time to time, it's different from killing multiple nightmares at once near nm lights, crazy monkeys, clockworks or mining ruins statues after all, therefore I called it "semi-passively").

I can see how on public servers it may be different though, since people are dying constantly and boneshards becoming plentiful because of that + red gems disappearing because of active usage of LGA's and catapults (faced this problem with lack of gems first hand).

Therefore, for solo server with advanced player and multiplayer server with few advanced and a lot of unexperienced players answer on question "what is cheaper as res item" may be different.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

.

i took that into consideration, the thing is that red hounds drops red gems and, if is a multiplayer server, the hound waves bring more hounds

for sure there is scenarios where this could be different like having selfish winonas but in most cases LGA are cheaper

[Pig Princess]

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the thing is that red hounds drops red gems and

I wonder how much people know about hound waves cancelling (and "gem cancelling" as a result); also I see a lot of people just can't be bothered to pick red gem from hound, but bother everyone else on the server with "res me pls", which leads to moleworms stealing it or gems just lying forgotten in some not frequently visited part of the map.

Although speaking of LGA's expesiveness always brings me joy: each time I remember "team swag base" on one of the Klei official server where I and 2 more relatively experienced friends of mine hid in the caves past monkeys from griefers and built night lights because we had too much gems, gold and especially nightmare fuel (we killed Fuelweaver only once, there were no Winonas in the team).

Edit: actually the most overpowered thing in DST is to have a friend who knows what they are doing. Topic can be closed, it's absolute conclusion, since friends can't be nerfed.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

29 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

I wonder how much people know about hound waves cancelling (and "gem cancelling" as a result); also I see a lot of people just can't be bothered to pick red gem from hound, but bother everyone else on the server with "res me pls", which leads to moleworms stealing it or gems just lying forgotten in some not frequently visited part of the map.

Although speaking of LGA's expesiveness always brings me joy: each time I remember "team swag base" on one of the Klei official server where I and 2 more relatively experienced friends of mine hid in the caves past monkeys from griefers and built night lights because we had too much gems, gold and especially nightmare fuel (we killed Fuelweaver only once, there were no Winonas in the team).

Edit: actually the most overpowered thing in DST is to have a friend who knows what they are doing. Topic can be closed, it's absolute conclusion, since friends can't be nerfed.

the thing is that people not picking stuff or exploiting antilag measures cant be taken into consideration imo (but you are right that it might affect the number of gems avaraible) and you can always explore with a shovel to dig mole holes plus if there is more people in the server you might not use LGA because telltale heart is avaraible (if they arent that noobs or selfish to dnt want to hurt theirselves)

friends are double edge weapon because if they are experienced the game is a faceroll but if they are noobs you will suffer a lot to keep them alive and progress into the game at the same time xD

[maradyne]

...bones can be farmed via fish/other players, who can be freely res'd with the watch. Terrific synergy with Wormwood; drain healthbar with living log spam, die, res, repeat, have as many materials for rebuilding the watch as you want.

Bones also spawn en-masse in the desert, if you want to make the watches alone/early game.

If you're playing the game solo or with people that refuse to sacrifice their meager lives to your glorious ascendance...or you just have excess red gems, then yea, LGA is the way to go. Personally, I like to keep the red gems around as much as possible to turn into more purples for warping, but everyone has their own playstyle.

 

Both are good options that have their uses. Not sure why it's a debate...

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, maradyne said:

Bones also spawn en-masse in the desert

excuse me?

nvm i read respawn instead of spawn

anyways the debate started because an user said it was cheaper for self reviving