Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[sosiskaKi]

Played beta. Good ballancing, I like how all this works. No need to change anything.

[Dextops]

7 hours ago, reallychina said:

Have you considered a career in theatre/drama or perhaps politics?

at least you could counter their arguments in anyway shape or form?

[reallychina]

2 minutes ago, Dextops said:

at least you could counter their arguments in anyway shape or form?

i had on the following page. but it wasn't really necessary, i commented because it was simply absurd to put a 2x damage char in F tier

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, reallychina said:

i had on the following page. but it wasn't really necessary, i commented because it was simply absurd to put a 2x damage char in F tier

F tier lmao

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, reallychina said:

i had on the following page. but it wasn't really necessary, i commented because it was simply absurd to put a 2x damage char in F tier

because 2x damage isn't that good

[TheMelonNinja]

I gotta say that I really like the idea of other players being able to use Wolfgang's gym as a way to get a very temporary damage boost. It nudges him in the direction of being more of a teamplayer, which is what I figured they'd go for. Speaking of teamplayer, maybe Wolfgang could "wrestle" with large mobs/bosses for a varying amount of seconds, in which both the enemy and Wolfgang are kind of angrily pushing against one another, and if timed right, Wolfgang can choose to shove the enemy back a few inches. For multiplayer, this would allow other players to sync together and start attacking the enemy that Wolfgang has a hold of, and for singleplayer, it could give the player some breathing room if a fight has gone awry. Wrestling would give a good amount of Mightiness, which could make it a good way to maintain it during fights. 

Mighty Wolfgang being able to chop/mine/hammer/whatever faster in addition to just rowing makes a lot of sense to me, as well. It would be nice for those actions (as well as fighting) to give him more Mightiness points. 

Also the Potato Sack being craftable would be cool. Give it, like, ten slots for exclusively potatoes which reduces spoilage time. That sounds really funny.  

For the broader scene of things, I just don't think Wolfgang's gym should be the main focus on how to gain mightiness. I think it should be one method of gaining it - something to do at base while you're waiting for crockpot meals to finish. I know he has his dumbbells as well, but I still think he should have a more diverse selection of things, especially since the dumbbells still require Wolfgang to go "okay wait hang on just a sec-" as he stands still to use them. Gaining/maintaining mightiness from manual labour and fighting, again, would help a lot I think. 

The idea of Wimpy Wolfgang getting the speedboost, to me, makes a lot of sense. If you were to go from Normal to Wimpy in the middle of a fight, your very first instinct would be to go "wuh oh..." and make a run for it. It also gives Wolfgang a bit more depth - do you want to sacrifice damage for speed, or do you want to sacrifice speed for damage? Both forms would have their ups and downs, which I think would be a welcomed breath of fresh air from the "me hungy, me eat, ok me awesome at everything now" boring-ness that Classic Wolfgang has. 

Or maybe I'm just an idiot and buffoon, I wouldn't rule out that possibility. I'm not a Wolfgang player, and I doubt anything will change that, simply because being his playstyle archetype isn't for me. I hope Wolfgang mains eventually get their wish, though. One of the worst feelings in the world is having your favorite character get reworked in a way you don't like. 

[mr. brj]

10 hours ago, JoeW said:

We decided to put out a testing branch for this refresh so we can get your feedback after actually having played the refresh, rather than reacting to speculative feedback. 

First of all, thank you JoeW for giving us the opportunity to test the rework on the beta branch. And please thank the team for us, I'm sure they are trying their best as always. I just finished testing the new Wolfgang and wanted to share my thoughts, especially as a solo Don't Starve Together player. For those who are purely interested in my personal opinion and experience with the character and not with the technical details I found to be worth mentioning, I will be writing those parts in bold. TLDR in the end.

 

I think most of the concerns the community has already addressed can be summed up as a drastic change in Wolfgang's playstyle (excluding the concerns regarding him not being a team player). He used to be a) the early-mid game explorer, b) the fighter that didn't need much setup and, most importantly, c) a solid choice for a character to start a solo world with. The removal of his speed boost sadly invalidates his role as the explorer completely. As for his role as a fighter, I found it to be a huge risk to enter a long fight as Wolfgang, unlike the risk the Old Wanda brings to the table. A solo Wolfgang will finish the fight against Dragonfly just moments before transforming back to normal, and even with panflutes, a solo Wolfgang has no room for errors during the Bee Queen fight. The transformation between his forms is still Wolfgang's most vulnerable moment, and not being able to safely go back to the mighty form is an issue during boss fights or Splumonkey/Nightmare Creature fiestas if Wolfgang gets stunlocked during the transformation. Maybe a little tweaking on the mightiness meter can solve these problems, but right now, Wolfgang desperately needs a more convenient way to go mighty.

 

Speaking of the mightiness meter, I'm honestly not sure what to say. I won't say that I don't like it, but I can't say that I like it either, at least in its current implementation. There are lots of thing to be discussed about the ups and downs of the meter, but essentially, it doesn't feel like Wolfgang. I never thought that Wolfgang being the "eat it and beat it" type of character was a boring or a lazy design. In fact, it encouraged a constant engagement with the various mechanics of the game, turning the simple idea of eating/collecting food into a means of resource management, time planning and as a result of these, a rewarding experience. The maintenance of the mightiness meter, however, doesn't feel satisfactory right now. It doesn't feel rewarding to being able to hit the right spot in a minigame, and it doesn't feel rewarding to wait for the character to finish lifting his dumbbell. Again, a little tweaking on the mightiness meter can solve these problems, but the new Wolfgang desperately needs a more convenient way to go mighty.

 

The major thing is, however, that Wolfgang's remaining perks are now tied to the mightiness meter, which is fundamentally not tied to anything else (the hunger drain from working out feels more Winona-like), and even with all the tweaking, the new Wolfgang will never feel like the old Wolfgang. He used to directly interact with the starvation aspect of the game: being a faster and stronger Wilson when he had food and being even worse then Wes when he had none. If the team decides to ditch this interaction, there is nothing we can do but to respect this decision. But please be aware that there are players who enjoyed the old Wolfgang and would be extremely saddened to see him go away from the game, beacause the new Wolfgang, despite the potential, feels almost nothing like the old Wolfgang, but more like a seperate character. This is why I found it unneccessary to remove the "eat it and beat it" aspect from his gameplay, it worked before and can be optimized in various ways to make it work better.

 

I personally think that the mightiness meter shouldn't be a main stat if the rework's purpose is to stay loyal to the character while giving them unique gameplay aspects, it should be a secondary stat that complements the "grows mighty on a full belly" aspect. There is so much potential in Wolfgang's rework if you keep it as simple as Wolfgang himself, but please, don't take away Wolfgang's place as the solo player's character of choice. I do enjoy playing as other characters as well, but when I want to play a long-term world, Wolfgang is without a doubt one of the best characters to start with. The state of this rework makes me feel concerned, because I feel like the option of having a smooth gameplay experience is being denied to those who prefer to (or have to) play by themselves. What I mean by smooth isn't an "easy mode", it is rather an experience that encourages playing more even if it means that I have to delete a world because I did something irreversible: Wolfgang helps me start over and do everything from the start faster than other characters. Without his speed boost and without his "eat it and beat it" style, Wolfgang will not be able to fulfill this role. 

 

The other tweaks in the update are all understandable changes, and the ability to move heavy objects without big penalties is always appreciated, as well as rowing faster. I actually liked Wolfgang's stats having linear values in relation to his mightiness, but them being constant values is a unique immprovement too. Anyways, please don't remove the speed boost and the "eat it and beat it" aspect from Wolfgang, they defined the gameplay of the character. I hope this post helps the Klei developer team in making the best update possible, and outlines the major concerns players such as myself have.

 

Also as a side note, removing Wolfgang's speed boost also means that there are currently no characters that can fight the Ancient Guardian solo in a legit way without setting up a lot, except for Wormwood, who already struggles with healing. If anyone should be able to 1v1 an ancient minotaur, it should be the strongman himself.

 

Some suggestions regarding the mightiness meter: 1) Give Wolfgang seperate advantages for eating meat and eating fruits/veggies, then the mightiness meter could reflect a secondary stat such as damage or speed without disturbing Wolfgang's different forms (i.e. the mightiness meter shows Wolfgang's potential, and the hunger meter shows Wolfgang's ability to execute this potential), 2) Turn the mightiness meter into a variable that influences damage received, which can translate into taking x2 the normal damage when the meter is empty and x0.75 damage when the meter is full (kind of like Wigfrid, except Wolfgang has to train in order maintain this penalty, still loyal to his original HP as well), 3) Give Wolfgang the ability to slowly restore his mightiness meter while wearing a marble suit or a piggy back.

 

TLDR: Removing the speed boost and the ability to go mighty with food hurts the character's gameplay. The excersises and the mightiness meter should be tweaked, are otherwise only decent, BUT don't feel like Wolfgang at all from a playstyle point of view. DST is already a game that requires a lot of time investment, Wolfgang used to be able to overcome that inconvenience for solo players, however the new Wolfgang doesn't do that. HP nerf is understandable, ability to carry heavy objects is appreciated, sanity nerf is understandable as well.

[HowlVoid]

8 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

Cant agree more. Yall could see the same if just drop the bone and to look at the other angles in this case

  

Dude seriously just pick a side
i did read the whole thread and sooner u was talkin about how much u want the mov speed back and why all the old buffs are necessary cuz u want to do stuff better or else fighting will be bad and now u r just counter arguing them for wantin to maximize what the character gives to the table

not cool

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say, doesn't matter anyhow.

[sudoku]

Wickerbottom finally finding a character to play that wont interrupt her reading

 

[BezKa]

I'm starting my beta game right now, and few words before I begin-

After I got a pretty good grip on the game, I decided I will create short term worlds for each character as sort of a challenge, survive one year as every character available. I hate rushing anything, even the things I want to have asap in every game, so it's not like I went and killed any raidbosses in these worlds, they were meant for just surviving. And Wolfgang was among those ones where I kept checking the day count and waiting for the year to be over.

Spoiler

Okay, so let's go!

Favourite skin picked, loaded into the world, first thing I see is the new meter. 50 points, the design is nice, though I'm not sure why it's next to the others and not below like Wigfrids. Doesn't matter that much.

The new item is also here, I equip and click 'lift'. Funny animation, and the mighty meter is going up quite fast. Around 30 points later the dumbbell disappears without any animation, and Wolfgang gets mighty. The sound effect is funny and the change in animation for lifting is amazing. In mighty form the option 'toss' appeared, but I haven't tried it. 

I started walking around to pick up all the starting resources, and managed to fall from the mighty form. The speed boost in mighty form is gone as well, but I never cared for it in the first place so it's not a loss for me. The mightyness falls very quickly, and there is no implication of how fast it happens- there is no down arrow or sound effects for it dropping until Wolfgang deflates like a balloon. The first thing to come to mind is that sound ques would get annoying- but you should remember that Wanda's "health" also has sound, and everybody got used to it very fast. Maybe some small sound indication you're close to a threshold of reaching/losing mighty/wimpy form? Or at least a quote from Wolfgang. 

Suspicious Marble found. In his normal form it appears he is still faster than a normal character while carrying the marble. I think this is a fair trade- if you desperately want to pause the might meter on the way to a raid boss, grab a statue on your way. Super niche, but a nice touch. 

In the meantime, the evening started. the sanity shows it's falling fast, his fear of darkness has really been increased, and as a mainly solo player I'm afraid I will feel that.

The new crafting tab shows only one available recipe, the other two locked behind a science machine. I think I'll wait until alchemy engine to try all these out.

Day 2 is coming to a close and what do I see? The Conspicuous Chest! Seems the first bossfight will be against Eye of Terror. When I'm ready that is.

This world is filled with beefalos. I'll get the hat fairly soon. And see how Wolfgang's mighty form holds up. Also, Wolfgang's idle animation is adorable. I'm curious if it changes depending on his might. 

It's barely day 3 and I'm wimpy already, and I used up the starting dumbbell on first day. The mightyness decay feels super fast for how long it takes to build it up- by the weakest dumbbell available, that is. I'll see how the upgrades do in comparison. A thing to note is that the icon for mightyness doesn't align with the forms perfectly- the icon stays normal for wimpy Wolfgang for a bit. Not sure about the mighty form. 

I found a tallbird- I'm having flashbacks to when I first tried playing Wolfgang. I wasn't as good with my kiting back then, but still too confident and died to one. As a ghost, I saw the tallbird laying egg animation for the first time in my life. It's safe to say I'm traumatized... I remember drawing a comic about this back then. Well, let's set up science machine by the rocks and get rid of the pest. 

Mightiness meter reached zero. Nothing happened. Wimpy Wolfgang's idle looks identical to his normal one. I think I have the materials for a golden dumbbell so let's see how effective it is. It is faster, that's for sure. Lasts for longer too. This is probably the go-to dumbbell for me, due to fairly low cost.

It's also important to mention, that the mightyness goes up quicker when you're wimpy and slows down the mightier you are. This encourages you to get just enough mightiness instead of topping it off every time. One gold dumbbell is more than enough to get your mightiness from 0 to 100. Let's check the toss function. 

The reach of the toss isn't big, not sure if it's the same for every kind. I didn't turn on mods for health so I'm not sure how much dmg it actually does. 

The first fight (aside from spiders) feels much more in character now. Instead of running around like crazy, Wolfgang feels like a hard swinging dude he is. You might not get as many hits in, but it feels right to search for a space where you can land one of your heavy blows. Because of Wolgang's size, it almost feels as if he's slower in mighty form. He feels a lot more like Wanda now, but he hits faster, having to come closer to land it in turn. I'd say it plays pretty good.

But now that I'm done with the fight, I've got a mighty meter almost filled up, and nothing to do with it. A perhaps wild suggestion- let Wolfgang pick up natural boulders? 

Also the icon change was late, both when turning mighty, and when becoming normal again. 

Mightyness lasts very little. I don't know if the decay is slower while fighting, or if there are other ways of making it last longer, but most hard fights will have you back to normal not even halfway in. My suggestion would be to at least slow the decay while carrying the dumbbell in your hand. It would make juggling a weapon, cane, and a dumbbell a pretty wild fighting strategy.

The fact tossing dumbbells is basically useless and wastes the tool sounds about right. Why would you want to do it? It's clearly just a little flavor, not meant for serious fights or tactics. Just another way to kill birds I guess. One thing I would consider though, is letting us crack stone fruit open by tossing a dumbbell at them. I think it'd be funny. Initially I thought that throwing weights at objects like trees or rocks would mine them a bit, but that would make no sense so I think the whole tossing mechanic is fine as it is. Just let me toss it at friends even in non pvp for funsies pls :>

5 days in, and overall, it's pretty good. Something that didn't happen with previous Wolfgang, is that I don't feel like I've reached his maximum potential just yet. Before, the first moment I got mighty by eating several carrots I basically knew the character in and out. I would go mighty the first day, and that's when the potential ended- which is not a bad thing, but the feeling of "There's more if I keep going" is very motivating. I think that's a huge plus.

Since I don't know how the gym or gem dumbbell work yet, my hopes are for a way to prolong the mightyness in some way (because it drains so fast) and get mighty in an instant, for a considerable price. Before, it was eating a meaty stew, now, I don't know what could play that role. Drugs? /j

Also am I delighted to hear the manure is quieter now. Thanks, sound devs! My ears are very grateful!

Let me mention the transformation jingle. It's adorable, thematic, and I love it. 

Playing for a while now, killing Beefs. Looks like fighting doesn't slow down might decay, so we desperately need some way to make it last longer.

Minor problem, holding a dumbbell makes toss a main prompt for right click for everything. Just threw a dumbbell at a marble piece...

I'll be honest, I completely forgot about hunger because of the mighty meter, and haven't thought that one could impact the other. Only after going from mighty to wimpy in like a minute did I remember I should eat... Because of that, I think a speed indicator for losing mightiness would be beneficial, be it sound or the good old arrow.

Also, rocks in the gold dumbbell recipe are starting to get on my nerves. I'm using them up so fast I'll run out of rocks before the first forest starts petryfying. Maybe I'm dramatizing, but I play alone, so who knows how it would look on a public server. At least it makes gathering characters like Maxwell or Wurt more valuable, because we will need a lot of rocks.

I decided to set up camp at oasis for no other reason than it's easy. Time to check out the gym, finally. And get some healing, the transformations in the middle of the fight cost me some health. The Gym looks fancy, and something Wilson would build for Wolfgang, with the arms and everything- I kinda like it. It takes up a lot of space though, and being tall, covers stuff behind it. The mechanic is easy, and my secret craving for a rhythm game in DST has been sort of satisfied. I think it's working nicely, I assume replacing the weights as other heavy stuff will make the process faster. Overall, I like it, though I'm not sure I'd have the patience to do it every time I want to fight. Welp, there's always dumbbells, which are a bit more boring but I can use the time to sort the inventory while Wolfgang lifts. I'm curious if replacing the weights will change the tempo of the game, make it harder or something. Several things:

1. Wolfgang makes the noise and the tune plays when he becomes mighty, but there is no animation. 

2. The little round thingy copies itself after becoming mighty and stays in the corner without moving.

3. I don't know if it's because of the gym or because I'm watching my hunger now, but it seems mightyness is falling way slower now. I think it might be combination of both, and if the gym does in fact slow the decay, that would be wonderful. 

After some traveling and prep, I made the gembell. It is the most efficient dumbbell and nothing more, from what I see. Expected something more, from being locked behind prestihatitator, but I guess that's fine.

Some sleep, and let's fight the Eye of Terror with new Wolfgang. I wonder if I'll have enough might for the entire fight. I know I could use a repairable helmet right now, so I'm glad the Terrarium was so easy to find. 

Glad to see no marble armor slowness on mighty Wolf as well. It suits him, especially the forge muscle skin :P

Welp. Here goes nothing,

Yep, 'nothing' is a good word. The fight was over before it started. Mighty Wolfgang with a tentacle spike is just too powerful. With no slowness from armor, I could still dodge the attacks and I can confidently say- all the people who want the speed back are just mad their free stat got taken away. Wolfgang is still mad powerful and you can just grab some items and build roads if you want to be quicker.

More importantly, I got the figure sketch and I heard boss figures make the gym more efficient. I really want to check that.

Huh. It looks like the "success" window got wider. Which is kind of unexpected- I'd assume it'd get smaller, since, you know, easy first, difficult later. But this is DS we're talking about... I guess making the gym less strict is an improvement for some people. What do I do with the potato sacks though... Where's my hammer? Except you can't hammer them. Set on fire? I guess that works. 

The winter is coming soon, and I unlocked everything I can, I think. Unless there is some better equipment at the pseudoscience station, which I doubt. 

 

Overall, Wolfgang seems like a solid character right now. He just needs some small adjustments, and a way to further slow down Mightyness decay- even at full hunger it's a bit quick. 

He definitely doesn't need his speed back. 

The gym is good, but it could have more than one rhythm. You know, for diversity. 

I don't know how gembell is better than gold dumbbell, aside from speed. 

The indicators I mentioned earlier would be nice. 

Maybe lower the amount of rocks required for dumbbells, as they consume a lot for a single short lived item. 

The small amount of perks for being mighty on one hand feels empty, on the other, why would you want to be mighty all the time? I think losing speed made it even more obvious being mighty all the time isn't the way to play. Avoid being wimpy, get mighty when it's needed. Sounds solid imo. 

I think that's all I have to say. I hope it was useful in any way.

 

[ALCRD]

I never played Wolfgang but on paper this sounds a bit like a nerf.

Then again like i said i never played him personally.

[IanKSB91]

Wait, is the milkmade hat still usefull for Wolfgang? (I just ask because I really like that hat jaja) 

[Eery]

First of all, thank u for ur hard work Klei.

Now, I don't play Wolfgang, I don't even like the character but I can see the nerf in his speed, his wimpu form is just downsides, more like a pinishment and as everybody is saying he doesn't bring anything to the team so here is my feedback:

1- Give him a really good speed buff to his wimpy form, I mean a really good one.

2- Allow him to chop, mine and hammer down faster when mighty.

3- Allow other characters to use the gym to get a 5 min damage buff, like 1.25 or 1.5. With this Wolfgang now brings something to the team.

4- Don't tied the new meter to his hunger or make it slower.

That's all, thank you.

[Mert_TR]

I think giving him a bit defence at his mighty form would be really nice since he doesnt get extra health anymore.

Also would be super nice if he had more benefits as a team player. Im sure you can come up with something really good you always do

[RacaSPlaca]

I thought this was gonna be an awful change, but honestly once I read through it, it's actually pretty good

[Josina]

This is the first time Klei has really disappointed me after nearly 9 years of playing Don’t Starve and then DST - and loving it as much today as I did back then. Klei is a constant source of joy in my life, and I’ve continuously been impressed with their creative ways to reinvent elements of DS(T) gameplay that make our journeys through the constant feel new and fresh, time and again. So thank you Klei!

But given this, and having played the new beta, I really am shocked and disappointed at the proposed Wolfgang “refresh” - so much so that it’s driven me to writing my first ever forum post. I have spent many thousands of hours playing Wolfgang, and reading a lot of these posts I realize he is quite misunderstood as a character by a large portion of the player community posting opinions and hate about him (many of whom start their posts by admitting that they don’t actually play him). And it seems this change mainly caters to their complaints and criticisms, but alienates those who actually like and play him, the outcome of which can only be that he’s played even less than he already is. 

Wolfgang has never really been overpowered, nor boring, he is simply suited to a more adventurous and  combat-oriented playstyle, and this isn’t for everyone. Likewise, not everyone enjoys investing time in building a large and pretty base, or farming, or sailing, etc. What makes DST so versatile is that no matter your preferred playstyle, you have a set of characters to choose from that suit it, allowing everyone to focus on the elements of the game they enjoy the most. And that’s the point of a game - to have fun.

One of the reasons Wolfgang players are reacting this strongly to the update - and in particular the nerfs - is simply that it kills the fun of playing him. I don’t think that debates about what % of speed boost he “should” have or not have so that a hating part of the community stops complaining that he is “op” is helpful. If Wolfgang really was overpowered then the servers would be full of Wolfgang players instead of always being full of Wendies and Wigfrids. But this could not be further from the truth. No refresh should diminish the fun of playing a character, so Wolfgang should simply not be nerfed. DST is not a PVP game, and the different characters complement each other if they each focus on what they do best - and in Wolfgang’s case that’s speed rushing resources for base (starcaller staffs for winter as well as other ruins loot, boss loot, being fast and effective at bringing mass amounts of meat to base, etc). Trying to turn Wolfgang into a character more appealing to people who like base building (by for instance giving him a speed buff in wimpy form) completely goes against the combat focused playstyle he enables, and confuses his place in the constant. 

Wolfgang is already known and loved for being the mighty strongman with his hungry belly, so any refresh should build on his core traits, perhaps improve his gameplay, or introduce a new mechanic that uniquely benefits the team, since teamwork sets DST apart from DS.  

The refresh as it stands currently kills the fun of playing the character through the nerf, but it also changed the core mechanic of the character too fundamentally. The introduction of a mightiness meter feels interesting but a bit unnecessary at first (since it is still tied to his hunger) but quickly becomes annoying to increase and maintain, as it requires an entire new set of activities (crafting exercise equipment and watching your character exercise for ages while you go afk) and costs additional resources on top of food. This again feels like a downgrade to old Wolfgang, and it diminishes the fun of playing him. If mightiness could be obtained faster and maintained for longer this would compensate for the additional nuisance, but it will still fly completely in the face of the strength, speed and agility that define Wolfgang’s core gameplay - especially in the early game. 

The refresh also reduced the number of interesting choices a Wolfgang player has to make, since his wimpy form no longer has any benefit and is simply something to be avoided at all costs (whereas before it had utility for healing, doing stationary chores in base or on the Hermit island while consuming less food, etc), whereas now the at all times best route is to just spam food constantly to minimize the amount of time I need to waste on exercising. Likewise planning meals and bundles for different boss fights or rushes was interesting - weighing the different strategies for when to use which type of filler food, healing food, or sanity restoration. Now the means to become mighty are really one dimensional - click, and then wait repeatedly.

A lot of player feedback post-beta feels like bargaining for the least bad outcome in the process of making Wolfgang worse, and that is a sad state of affairs. While I understand how incredibly hard it is to walk away from time and effort sunk into a feature or change, I would plead with Klei to consider going back to the drawing board on how Wolfgang could be made better or more fun compared to his current form, and how he could be given more team focused additional perks. You have already outdone yourself on an amazing roadmap in 2021, and I don’t think anybody would mind waiting a little longer for a better outcome.

 

We love you Klei. <3

[Parusoid]

7 hours ago, Szczuku said:

with no friends to distract the boss

panflutes work best for this

[hot focaccia]

Sounds epic, now we can achieve mach speed on a boat with 6 wolfgang mains

[Parusoid]

5 hours ago, myxal said:

to provide a way to let the mightiness drop

it drops pretty quick when hungry

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 minutes ago, Mert_TR said:

I think giving him a bit defence at his mighty form would be really nice since he doesnt get extra health anymore.

marble suit has no penalties

[NinofanTOG]

So, while I am pumping the gold bell during the dusk, as I wait for the boss to come, I am starting to write my honest opinion on the rework(As of the time writing this I killed Dfly and Klaus):

Mighty changes

There are some big problems in my opinion. For one, being mighty feels....not mighty at all to me. Sure, you deal 2x damage but that's it. Furthermore, you are bigger, and since you now don't have increased speed, kitting is not fun at all. Also, I don't think there is any kind of damage reduction from being mighty, so instead of having 300 HP, you are stuck with 200 HP. I suggest that being mighty gives you the speed boost back, and gives you a 50% damage reduction.

(Video on kiting, the second hit just proves how big the hitbox is, mind you I was the one hosting the server. The speed boost could have helped me be further away.)

But this is obviously too op  you might say. But I think given the way you have to literally "earn" mighty-ness, I think its a fair. Also we have Wanda who deals more damage, and Wig who has 25% damage reduction, so Wolf should at least have something. 

The bells:

Normal Bell: Literally a joke. Breaks so fast, does barely anything. It may be used as a laughing stock really.

Gold Bell: Its good. Thats it.

Gembell: In my opinion almost perfect, should be refuelable with nightmare fuel.  As a tradeoff, maybe it drains sanity upon use?

The Mighty-Inator

I think its nice, but it sure does drain hunger. I went in there with like 67 hunger and came out starving, and all I did was gain 20 might maybe?

The idea of using statues is brilliant I must say. Although, this thing is huge, which fits Wolfgang but I can imagine it will annoy base perfectionists.

Other 
The range of the "Friendship is magic" aka reduced sanity drain from dark of friends is...strange. You have to be right next to them and let them give you a good night kiss, and if you step away a bit its gone(See video)

Working out stops when you reach 100 might. Annoying when you are pumping while waiting for a boss, because now you have to spam right click to be at 100 might. 

The Workout station could use an option to make it go...faster. Maybe add a version that rewards fast paced timing but punishes slow inputs?

  

[csc_unit]

Please Klei do not flinch on giving back the 1.25x speed on mightiness. Those type of players simply like the best things because they are the best. Give them a character who drops nukes that can oneshot Deerclops on sight with a single click and they will be soo happy they'd wet their pants, even though it would be a garbage mechanic for your game.

I am really happy with the 1.25x speed removal. This was freaking too OP and didnt make sens; since when the big buff dude is the fastest? Ya can't be the fastest and the strongest. But having no speed penality on piggybackpack an marble suit + faster rowing are a genius Ideas Klei! So Wolfgang , instead of being a lightning fast tanky powerhouse, is now ... wait for it.. a still fast and even more tanky powerhouse when paired with the marble suit. 

Love the rework! You put a lot of thoughts into the development and it shows with the attention to details.

 

Edit: I wrote 2x speed instead of 1.25x at first , oop

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, NinofanTOG said:

Also, I don't think there is any kind of damage reduction from being mighty, so instead of having 300 HP, you are stuck with 200 HP. I suggest that being mighty gives you the speed boost back, and gives you a 50% damage reduction

marble suit + the buff you suggest and you wont be able to die

klei balanced the hp lose with the ultility of having access to the best (best since he removes the debuff)  and cheaper armor in the game

[Parusoid]

It's all good, having to press Space few times before fight to get double damage couldn't be simpler. Wolfgang was always simple and this change matches that simplicity and typical Wolfgang player who just wants to smack things without having to think too much.

Love the circus themed flavor of things

Even though you still have to eat a bit more to keep mighty drain rate low and top up hunger after using gym, it still feels like using less food than before and i like it.

Extra speed boost while equipping speed penalty items is exactly what players wanted.

Dumbbells could use a durability increase, especially for the throwing action because throwing them is such a fun addition to his kit.

Removed walking speed is good choice, kiting can be done without speed boost and everyone is using canes anyhow.

However since a lot of people complain about removing speed boost (even though we all know speed stat is the most OP thing in the game) i thought that dumbbells could apply a slowing effect when thrown at enemy to give a bit more of a kiting advantage
 

[sawchuk]

TL;DR: Wolfgang feels exceptional now. The stable damage multiplier is an absurdly strong buff. The loss of the speed bonus seems fairly negligible. It still seems a little odd that Wolfgang doesn't mine and chop faster than average when he is mighty. Dumbbells need a retune.

 

What feels good about the update

The new animations for lifting are fantastic. I enjoyed the concept of having to exercise to get the mightiness perk. The old method of just gluttonously eating wasn't very thematic to being a strongman and this fits way better.

The gym minigame is great. It's simple enough that what the player has to do to use it is immediately evident. It allows the player to rapidly gain mightiness without consuming durability on an item. It also incentivizes the player towards boss killing so that it can be upgraded to its maximum potential, which fits great with wolfgang's niche.

Properly managing his hunger meter to maintain mightiness is a nice nod back to his old mechanic and feels good. The range of hunger values to have the minimum drain to mightiness is quite generous, and even just being in the top half of your hunger meter has your mightiness draining at very manageable rates.

The new stable multipliers for everything about wolfgang's forms are fantastic. The stable 2x multiplier is a massive buff and while my maximum damage didn't increase at all, I felt way stronger as the new wolfgang than the old one since my damage was way more reliable. This allows wolfgang to more effectively use lower damage items without constantly dropping below meaningful breakpoints. The most noteworthy item of that nature here is the shield of terror, which was fairly useless as wolfgang before but is exceptional now.

Wolfgang moving faster with heavy items is great. It fits his character well and allows him to make great use of marble suits and piggybacks. Both those items are very strong, so him ignoring their only downside is fantastic. His ability to carry statues better than other characters is a nice thematic team benefit.

 

What I think needs changing

Dumbbells aren't balanced right. For simplicity, I am going to call 0.3125 a "tick" of mightiness. This is what dumbbells are currently

Dumbbell   Wimpy     Normal     Mighty
Stone         3 ticks     1 tick        1 tick
Gold           6 ticks     3 ticks      1 tick
Gem           6 ticks     6 ticks      6 ticks

1 tick of mightiness per lift feels very slow, so to me it felt like I should be avoiding lifting into that range. This would mean that the 3 tick region of lifting is what form the dumbbell is designed to maintain. The 6 tick region can be rapidly exercised past and working into the 1 tick region is almost painfully slow. Standing still watching your character exercise isn't fun, and if you want to exercise any meaningful amount into the 1 tick region, you are going to have to spend a lot of time watching your character.

Stone dumbbells are worthless from that interpretation. Their only purpose is to maintain wimpy form, which is maintained automatically anyways. I don't think crafting a stone dumbbell makes any sense with their current implementation. The stone dumbbell that is given to the player when they spawn can't even get Wolfgang to mighty form halfway through the first day.

Gold dumbbells feel much better than stone dumbbells, but that's mostly because they have double the durability. They still struggle to push the player into mighty form. They also do a much better job at maintaining normal form to prevent the downsides of neglecting your fitness,

Gem dumbbells feel fantastic. Their strength is wonderful as a final upgrade. Unfortunately by my interpretation they are the only dumbbell that can meaningfully push Wolfgang into mighty form so they feel necessary, not a luxury.

This is what I would like to see the dumbbells change to:

Dumbbell   Wimpy     Normal     Mighty
Stone         6 ticks     3 tick        1 tick
Gold           6 ticks     6 ticks      3 ticks
Gem           6 ticks     6 ticks      6 ticks

This would mean that stone dumbbells are for maintaining normal form and can push into mighty form at a pinch. I might actually craft them in the early game if I am slow getting a science machine up. It would also make the gold item more reasonable to use to maintain mighty form. This would mean that gem dumbbells feel less necessary to the player.

In multiplayer scenarios, its important to think about what resources the player is taking away from their friends to craft these dumbbells. By improving the quality of the lower dumbbells it will make the upgraded versions less mandatory and prevent Wolfgang players from being greedy with their team's resources. It will also allow you to push gold dumbbells up to alchemy tier and gem dumbbells up to manipulator tier without severely harming Wolfgang's abilities. It doesn't make sense for Wolfgang to consume the team's gold before they have an alchemy engine or the team's purple gems before they have a shadow manipulator.

 

Nice to have changes

Wolfgang really feels like he should mine and chop faster when he is mighty. It's not a hill I would die on, but thematically it would fit. With the change to how work is calculated from the Wes update, I don't think this would be a massive change for him either, since it would use up tools faster as well.

Potato sacks are a nice thematic thing, but they make absolutely no sense. You get them for free when you craft the gym, but then you can't do anything with them once they are off the gym. Building 2 statues to upgrade the gym is trivial, but then I have these 2 potato sacks to get rid of in the middle of my base which is fairly annoying.

Using a dumbbell as a weapon could use some attention. It doesn't make sense that throwing it doesn't get Wolfgang's damage bonus when blow darts do. Also it would be really nice if Wolfgang can still swing it like a normal weapon when he is mighty.

Crafting tabs are getting out of hand. Not every character needs one. Wolfgang's only has 4 items in it. I am all for just putting them in the normal crafting tabs like Woodie's idols. The dumbbells could easily go in the weapons tab and the gym could easily go in the structures tab. We don't need permanent additional clutter in our crafting bar.