Wolfgang's Character Refresh is Coming Next Week!

[Phizzle]

I played in a Wolfgang server in the beta branch today. There were two pieces of equipment at the portal and 10 Wolfgang's trying to use them. Not a great update for a server of Wolfgangs I think, but also a server of just one character does suffer...as it should, right? It was fun traveling with the pack once we were ready. We took breaks to workout and hunt birds (lol), and then rekt the Bee Queen. The rest went on to fight Toad, but I missed the fight due to my poor network connection. :/ I like how the rework shows more of his personality and adds humor and it makes sense from a RP point of view. Also, marble suits and piggybacks are now Wolfgang's items but other people can use with a penalty and I think this is a concept Klei should explore more. 

[Pedrolar27]

I am very excited about wolfgang's rework, but I think it could be better for example I have seen that dummbells can be used as weapons and if instead of using dummbells a new weapon exclusive to wolfgang was added as boxing gloves. 

[Phizzle]

48 minutes ago, Pedrolar27 said:

I am very excited about wolfgang's rework, but I think it could be better for example I have seen that dummbells can be used as weapons and if instead of using dummbells a new weapon exclusive to wolfgang was added as boxing gloves. 

I like watching Wolfgang throw dumbbells at things. A slow ranged weapon we can manually aim was a nice surprise and the aoe makes it even better. And it's a dumbbell...lol. Completely unexpected. 

[firoborn]

29 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m confused about the whole tie his movement speed to how sane he is suggestion, don’t bosses MASSIVELY drain Sanity when near them anyway?? So really it would be the same problem of hitting like a truck with super speed all over again correct?

I don’t see that as a proper fix, I like some of the other suggestions though such as Speedy when Wimpy or choosing a Leg Workout or Might Workout but NEVER both at the same time.

The only way the Sanity thing makes any sense is if Wolfgang GAINED Sanity when fighting Bosses.. which would then mean: He’s even more like Wigfrid, But Unlike Wigfrid who wants to stay sane in Boss fights, the Wolfgang who is now constantly GAINING Sanity, Will now need to eat some bad Sanity screwing up foods or use Sanity draining items (like a Darksword)

thats the point i want his speed back for combat, wolfgang doesnt need to gain sanity in combat for the perk to make sense or to be balanced, this way while playing wolfgang you have to weight the use of some items agains others if what you want is the extra speed.or to avoid insanity while in combat.

[ALCRD]

  

Didn't realize he has no speed penalty now when using Marble armor and Piggy Back.

This is actually looking really good.

[minespatch]

10 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

He can put it next to his biceps and warm it up again. 

1 hour ago, DST_LSJ said:

Woodie throw Lucy.

To be honest, shame Woodie can't do that in the game. It fits the two.

[Gatitos]

damn this is a spicy update, i like it tho, people complaining are just malding that they cant use their crutch character to kill dragonfly day 1

[Owlrust]

3 hours ago, DST_LSJ said:

Woodie throw Lucy.

  Reveal hidden contents

Add this strings into modmain.lua at anyone mod.
Asset("ANIM", "anim/player_wolfgang_dumbbell.zip")
Then join the game and [~] those code.
ThePlayer.AnimState:AddOverrideBuild("player_wolfgang_dumbbell")
ThePlayer.sg:Stop()
ThePlayer.AnimState:PlayAnimation("dumbbell_mighty_loop",true)

 

In general I think that would make an awesome emote.

[minespatch]

6 minutes ago, Owlrus said:

In general I think that would make an awesome emote.

What would Willow tossing Bernie would be like?

[Captain_Rage]

1 hour ago, ALCRD said:

  

Didn't realize he has no speed penalty now when using Marble armor and Piggy Back.

This is actually looking really good.

Ye, which actually makes perfect sense for a strongman. In reality the physique of a strongman makes for a H O R R I B L E runner while at the same time allowing unhindered movement when donning a heavy suit.

Gameplaywise it is also a lot more interesting than a flat out movement speed bonus. Other characters, like Willow, can still dodge hits from the Dragonfly while slowed by a Marble Suit, albeit it requires a lot more effort to get the timing right and leaves no margin for improvisation if the fighting pattern of the boss gets interrupted, but Wolfgang's new bonus should make fighting in Marble Suits very viable. The Marble Suit is stone cold damage mitigator. It is an affordable item which outshines other armors in similar price range as well, and without a movement penalty is should be amazing.

[Luffy36]

On 12/10/2021 at 4:29 AM, JoeW said:

His speed no longer changes with his forms

pain for old players

[JustExo]

Why do people think Wolfgang's speed boost should be taken away?

[Yuuko]

Quote

You say food is so easy it doesn’t even constitute a downside to Wolfgang at all - even though when he is mighty his hunger drain is 3x that of a normal character.

Food is so easy to come by.  I regularly have bundle wraps full on the ground, fridges overflowing and rotting, and a bundle wrap in my inventory with enough food that I could go an entire in game year without doing anything but opening that up every 2-3 days, grabbing what I'll need, and bundling the rest up.  This is without even setting up *any* food farms.  The game gives you plenty of food that it is really hard to see just "food" as a blanket category as a downside at all.  Warly, Wurt, and Wigfrid have restrictions that actually make their food game more challenging.  Wolfgang just consumes more of it.  Wortox also has a blanket eating restriction and is rarely brought up in this subject for the same reason.  I didn't even notice Wortox *had* an eating restriction when I played him XD

That isn't to say Wolfgang's food play couldn't be interesting:

Quote

What do you think Wolfgang eats? How long do you think eating a picked up berry with its slow pickup animation at 9 hunger lasts on a 3-fold hunger drain rate in terms of actual gameplay?

What I tend to eat with Wolfgang are a lot of small foods like carrots, cooked cactus, blue shrooms, etc.  Something that is small and doesn't spoil too fast, and especially something that comes with sanity and health restoration.  This is because you want to stay as close to max mighty as possible to get the most of his perk.  I wouldn't call Wolfgang's food / mightiness difficult, but I would call it interesting and thematic.  It is thematic for a strongman type to eat constant meals through the day.  Thematic and interesting, but not challenging.

I have posted pages back what I think, so I'll just sum it up briefly and leave a link to the full post.  I would like to keep the thematic of a strongman eating continually to maintain mightiness.  I think this can be done by reducing the mightiness drain to 0 when you are within around 15% of max hunger.  This means you don't need to actually pump weights during a fight, you just do what Wolfgang players have already done, and munch on little bits of food as you fight.  Except now instead of constantly combatting the linear scaling, you enjoy the full damage mod.

check it out:

The speed boost is an entirely different subject - I also spoke about that in my other post, so I'll just say a few things here.  I don't think a speed boost is very thematic, and if we started from *scratch* and all listed ideas we wanted in a strongman character I don't think speed would make the list.  I think a lot of people who are missing the speed are in a "meta" of playing as Wolfgang for certain reasons, Wolfgang has always been able to do a lot of very unique things, but I don't see the speed as very thematic, at least the way it was represented in old Wolfgang.  Weight lifters lose speed as they bulk up, even though that same muscle grants speed when they trim down.  I've seen people say to give speed to wimpy, but I'd rather Wimpy was a bad state - it means you haven't kept up your muscles, and it should be a bit of a penalty state.  I think the speed would work wonderfully on middle form though, and go into that too.

imo having speed and food perk as I describe would do a lot to satisfy many players who are worried about new Wolfgang.  His early weights are great for getting you to middle form (I'll call this Fit) but not Mighty.  If Fit form gives you a speed boost this means those earlier weights enable exploration which is desired early.  Combined with the food perk its okay the dumbbells might take time to get to Fit form, and even their low durability isn't bad, because you can stay Fit as long as needed by keeping your hunger up.  This also means you're never that far from Mighty if you need to fight something since the food perk can lock you at 74% mighty, just a few pumps away from fighting form.  You don't have to cap out mighty since the full perk is given at once, so you can just float between 74-76% getting either the speed or damage perk as you need.

1 hour ago, Exodichu said:

Why do people think Wolfgang's speed boost should be taken away?

Thematic and design reasons.  Thematically when a strongman bulks up they lose speed.  Design wise we have a character with a monster health bar AND super fast speed, which is kinda redundant ez mode.  They are contradictory buffs.  The new balance lets him maintain speed while carrying weight which is more thematic.  Balance wise, you don't need that speed for a fight really.  Every character can kite every boss.  As far as getting around - there are suggestions to add that speed back to other forms which I think might satisfy enough people that it would pass ^

[JustExo]

I keep seeing people throw around phrases like "Balancing" and "Meta" but I've yet to see anybody define parameters in which those two can be discussed.

Just now, Exodichu said:

I keep seeing people throw around phrases like "Balancing" and "Meta" but I've yet to see anybody define parameters in which those two can be discussed.

Who do you think klei is balancing the game around? Is it the top percentage of people who know what they're doing at all times and can get through this game easily? And if so, is that what the game should be balanced around?

And what do you mean in regards to something being "Meta" what meta are you following and what goals are you trying to accomplish when you say that something is overpowered or meta? Inherently because this game is as open ended as it is, can there even be such a thing as a clearly defined meta?

4 minutes ago, Exodichu said:

I keep seeing people throw around phrases like "Balancing" and "Meta" but I've yet to see anybody define parameters in which those two can be discussed.

Who do you think klei is balancing the game around? Is it the top percentage of people who know what they're doing at all times and can get through this game easily? And if so, is that what the game should be balanced around?

And what do you mean in regards to something being "Meta" what meta are you following and what goals are you trying to accomplish when you say that something is overpowered or meta? Inherently because this game is as open ended as it is, can there even be such a thing as a clearly defined meta?

I think a lot of the conflict that players are having in regards to this rework can be resolved if somebody at klei outlined why they had made the changes that they did, and then we as a community can have a conversation about whether or not those motivations are well founded, or not. At the very least it would provide some insight to a few people who are just curious about what goes on behind the scenes

[nice rocks]

I am not a fan of this rework as it is now because it makes playing Wolfgang slower and more tedious when it doesn't have to. A few changes that would make this rework better from a game play perspective:

Keep the speed buff. The animations of both the dumbbells and the gym workout suggest that Wolfgang if working out both his arms and legs so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination that Wolfgang gets stronger and faster as a result of working out. Immersion would still be maintained.

Either make the dumbbells repairable with sewing kits/tape or give the goldbell and gembell more uses than the base dumbell,

Rowing should increase Wolfgang's strength. It's impractical to have a gym on the water and rowing is a form of exercise. Also this would ease up on the item slot requirements for the materials to craft dumbbells.

Make the potato sacks from the gym structure objects that can be hammered. When hammered they would provide 2~3 potatoes. More often than not players will just immediately replace the potato sacks with statues to gain mightiness more efficiently. This would be better than just leaving them next to the gym doing nothing and it gives players access to another unique crop seed outside the RNG of farming non-specific seeds.

Give Wolfgang a unique recipe, maybe something like a protein shake, that will act as a normal food item for other survivors but will prevent the lost of mightiness for a short period of time once Wolfgang has become mighty. The milky whites dropped by the Eye of Terror could be a necessary ingredient and it can have an effective time limit of 2 minutes. This will give extra replay value to the Eye of Terror boss fight beyond the initial 1~2 fights to get the eye mask and figure sketch and give players access to a good food item that is not easily spammable through normal game play.

Give Wolfgang the ability to pick up and relocate sleeping mob creatures like pigmen, bunnymen, volt goats, MacTusk, saladmanders, etc. This would be a unique ability that would give Wolfgang extra utility outside of just fighting and moving heavy objects and make things like volt goat relocation a lot less tedious. It also may incentivize players to craft sleep darts or use napsacks on mobs.

[Yuuko]

18 minutes ago, Exodichu said:

I keep seeing people throw around phrases like "Balancing" and "Meta" but I've yet to see anybody define parameters in which those two can be discussed.

Probably because those terms have their own meaning that I'd think most people in the gaming space should understand these days.

The Wolfgang meta could also be called the Edgy Rick meta.  "Play Wolfgang b/c super speed, super damage, clear all bosses and win game."  Not everyone subscribes to this meta, but a lot of people who like Wolfgang like him because he satisfies their desire to speed and power their way through the game.  This is not a bad thing, as many people play games to do exactly this.  This is why some people have thousands of hours playing Wolfgang, and may have him as their *only* played character.  Is the meta bad?  No.  Will it go away because Wolfgang is changed?  No.  They will either keep playing Wolfgang because the 2x damage is still great, or they'll adapt and pick a different character.  If Wolfgang never had the speed to begin with, these players wouldn't care because they are mostly comparing the potential of old Wolfgang vs new Wolfgang to speed burst through, and losing a good speed buff will definitely hit those records.

Some people have said pretty plainly they feel balance should be a complete non-issue since this game isn't competitive.  While balance doesn't have the same importance in coop as it does in pvp, there is still a need for each character to have their place to shine.  I think we see the "balance problem" with Wolfgang as he isn't the *only* combat focused character, but he dominates so much that there isn't much reason to pick any of the other ones.  His speed and strength together pretty much guarantee the best speed runs will be his.  He is also completely lacking a downside, and as many people post about how they love him ignoring speed penalties with statues, marble suits, and piggypacks, NONE of them are giving real downsides that merit getting such a straight buff.

There is a dissatisfied contingent of the dst community who enjoys character downsides, and seeing a top tier character with a negligible downside get boosted further while still having a negligible downside is gonna be frustrating because that's what might interest them in actually playing the character.  Wanda was recently released and is the only character who can fully match Wolfgang in dps.  She has downsides, mostly that she sits at about 20 effective health, constantly losing it at a rate of 3.75 health per minute and her only healing method is gated with cast time, cool downs, and can be disrupted.  Yet some people want Wolfgang to have high health to tank when they want, along with high speed to dodge when they want, and still have top tier dps...  I think if people came up with interesting downsides, like actual really interesting and challenging ones, that people would have no problem accepting a more powerful Wolfgang.

[JustExo]

Just now, Shosuko said:

Probably because those terms have their own meaning that I'd think most people in the gaming space should understand these days.

The issue with this is due to the fact that the game doesn't have any specific goal and its as open ended as it is, there can't really be a definable meta to the game. Wolfgang's enhanced combat potential isn't going to make a difference for when somebody is gathering wood for chests in their mega bases, nor is it going to help new players who struggle to maintain their hunger by day 13.

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The Wolfgang meta could also be called the Edgy Rick meta.  "Play Wolfgang b/c super speed, super damage, clear all bosses and win game."  Not everyone subscribes to this meta, but a lot of people who like Wolfgang like him because he satisfies their desire to speed and power their way through the game.  This is not a bad thing, as many people play games to do exactly this.  This is why some people have thousands of hours playing Wolfgang, and may have him as their *only* played character.  Is the meta bad?  No.  Will it go away because Wolfgang is changed?  No.  They will either keep playing Wolfgang because the 2x damage is still great, or they'll adapt and pick a different character.  If Wolfgang never had the speed to begin with, these players wouldn't care because they are mostly comparing the potential of old Wolfgang vs new Wolfgang to speed burst through, and losing a good speed buff will definitely hit those records.

 

The issue with the rework as I've seen people complain. About it is that, it only serves as a detriment to the way that people who prefer this boss rush playstyle use Wolfgang, which is something that I personally don't approve of because it feels as though its klei changing things specifically to deter a preferred playstyle for a single group of players

[Yuuko]

2 minutes ago, JustExo said:

The issue with this is due to the fact that the game doesn't have any specific goal and its as open ended as it is, there can't really be a definable meta to the game. Wolfgang's enhanced combat potential isn't going to make a difference for when somebody is gathering wood for chests in their mega bases, nor is it going to help new players who struggle to maintain their hunger by day 13.

Okay but I defined it, so don't act like I didn't lol  No one is talking about how Wolfgang's speed makes him better at gathering wood then Maxwell or Woodie.  They are talking about how fast he can get anything he needs, get to a boss and KO it handily with his combination of speed, damage, and tankyness with downsides that might as well not exist because they don't impact his play at all.

You can gather all the wood and stone you want, but you'll want dfly scales, bundle wraps, bone helms, enlightened crowns, etc and that is all directly enabled, and frankly made quite easy, with prework Wolfgang.

[JustExo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

Okay but I defined it, so don't act like I didn't lol  No one is talking about how Wolfgang's speed makes him better at gathering wood then Maxwell or Woodie.  They are talking about how fast he can get anything he needs, get to a boss and KO it handily with his combination of speed, damage, and tankyness with downsides that might as well not exist because they don't impact his play at all.

The issue with that is, why go by this single definition of how the meta is defined when it effectively ignores a solid portion of the game? Is Wolfgang's early game utility for *some* players what klei should be balancing around? And if they should be balancing around those individuals players, why is that the case?

[Yuuko]

27 minutes ago, JustExo said:

The issue with the rework as I've seen people complain. About it is that, it only serves as a detriment to the way that people who prefer this boss rush playstyle use Wolfgang, which is something that I personally don't approve of because it feels as though its klei changing things specifically to deter a preferred playstyle for a single group of players

The thing about this is they are comparing old Wolf vs new Wolf, and obviously see new Wolf is coming up short in that comparison.  Fact is after no one has old Wolf anymore, new records will be written.  New records won't be new Wolf vs old Wolf, they will be new Wolf vs the rest of the current cast.  Several people have claimed that without speed they will definitely drop Wolfgang, and I think this is possibly a good sign as it means Wolfgang won't be the only consideration for speed runs for many people.  Saying these things indicates they don't care about Wolf, they care about character power levels.  If everyone who wants to pick a good character for this ends up picking the exact same one out of 18, several of which are combat focused, the problem is pretty obvious...  He is all around too good.

That isn't to say criticism is bad - I think the workout station isn't very fun.  As a rhythm game player I think it should be a faster rep with more weight, and give better gains for a more perfect action, rather than extending the acceptable bar wider.  imo the leniency you get with more weight is the wrong way to go.  Easy games aren't entertaining.  If it got faster with heavier weights, and had the same strict potato window all the time, I think people might actually enjoy it XD  And there is definitely good criticism of taking away Wolf's speed.  I address this in my own post on the subject that I linked above.

21 minutes ago, JustExo said:

The issue with that is, why go by this single definition of how the meta is defined when it effectively ignores a solid portion of the game? Is Wolfgang's early game utility for *some* players what klei should be balancing around? And if they should be balancing around those individuals players, why is that the case?

For this topic - the meta we're all on about is exactly how I laid it out, and I don't think *anyone* is confused about that.  If you want to talk about the resource gathering meta, go to a thread about that - the answer is Bearger + Deciduous is king of logs, but there are other decent options.  I think acting confused about what we mean by "meta" in a thread about how strong Wolfgang is, is just disingenuous.  What do you THINK everyone is talking about when they say his speed, damage, and tankiness let him run through the game as quick as possible?  Be honest, its a pedantic gesture at best.

[JustExo]

1 minute ago, Shosuko said:

For this topic - the meta we're all on about is exactly how I laid it out, and I don't think *anyone* is confused about that.  If you want to talk about the resource gathering meta, go to a thread about that - the answer is Bearger + Deciduous is king, but there are decent options.  I think acting confused about what we mean by "meta" in a thread about how Wolfgang is just disingenuous.  What do you THINK everyone is talking about when they say his speed, damage, and tankiness let him run through the game as quick as possible?  Be honest, its a pedantic gesture at best.

I'm not trying to be disingenuous in the slightest, the point I'm making is that, a character being hyperspecialized in one field like Wolfgang doesn't mean the character is the best one, like many people would lead you to believe. To what degree the character should be hyperspecialized depends on the player base in particular.

4 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The thing about this is they are comparing old Wolf vs new Wolf, and obviously see new Wolf is coming up short in that comparison.  Fact is after no one has old Wolf anymore, new records will be written.  Several people have claimed that without speed they will definitely drop Wolfgang, and I think this is possibly a good sign as it means Wolfgang won't be the only consideration for speed runs for many people.  They aren't picking Wolf because they like Wolf, they are picking Wolf because they like to play the speed rush, power through play style.

 

What I would liken this change to however, is reducing a skill gap by putting an arbitrary stop gap measure in the way of people playing the character in a playstyle that they want to play. 

Ultimately what I see as the issue for a lot of players, is that it only affects those people who enjoy rushing bosses who would rather not have that slow down in their gameplay, while those who would rather take their time playing through the game at their own place see little to no issue with the changes

All of this revolves back to the issue of: what "meta" is klei choosing to balance things around, and should that be the case, and thats the idea that I'm trying to lay out

11 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

The thing about this is they are comparing old Wolf vs new Wolf, and obviously see new Wolf is coming up short in that comparison.  Fact is after no one has old Wolf anymore, new records will be written.  New records won't be new Wolf vs old Wolf, they will be new Wolf vs the rest of the current cast.  Several people have claimed that without speed they will definitely drop Wolfgang, and I think this is possibly a good sign as it means Wolfgang won't be the only consideration for speed runs for many people.  Saying these things indicates they don't care about Wolf, they care about character power levels.  If everyone who wants to pick a good character for this ends up picking the exact same one out of 18, several of which are combat focused, the problem is pretty obvious...  He is all around too good.

What I think is going on in this instance is just in one specific field though. Its a group of people who play the game in a certain way, of which Wolfgang fits the best. If you're playing this game for the long haul, what most people would generally agree with is a character like Wanda would be better than Wolfgang because her abilities aren't limited strictly to combat. Her utility spans across many different fields which ultimately causes her to be a better long term choice. Wigfrid which is another combat oriented character sees her utility rise with how many people she can support through songs and gear. As far as I can tell, people see Wolfgang as an incredibly strong early game character, but is ultimately outdone in utility in many other fields, and over a longer span of time. 

If you're someone who values the short term benefits in a solo playthrough, as most people who do boss rushes with Wolfgang do, then I think its understandable why people would be upset with that

[bagherthegamer]

On 12/10/2021 at 11:29 PM, Cheggf said:

If you don't like the feedback don't read it.

Since when complaining mindlessly about an update we dont have yet called "feedback"?

Also the beta is out and its alot better than what i thought.

[sudoku]

2 minutes ago, bagherthegamer said:

Since when complaining mindlessly about an update we dont have yet called "feedback"?

Also the beta is out and its alot better than what i thought.

Is "alot better than i thought" really the goal marker we should be using when it comes to the type of content we want?

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, JustExo said:

I'm not trying to be disingenuous in the slightest, the point I'm making is that, a character being hyperspecialized in one field like Wolfgang doesn't mean the character is the best one, like many people would lead you to believe. To what degree the character should be hyperspecialized depends on the player base in particular.

There are conversations about who is best at resource gathering, and no one interrupts and says "bUt WhAt AbOuT bOsS rUsHiNg."  That isn't what this thread is about, so when we're here and someone says "I don't like Wolfgang meta" I think you know what they mean, and that they are on topic.  Trying to question "what is meta" is subversive, hoping to derail the conversation.  Wolfgang meta is a big part of this conversation because character selection is the biggest factor that goes into who can rush through the bosses to get all of the end game loot.

Quote

What I would liken this change to however, is reducing a skill gap by putting an arbitrary stop gap measure in the way of people playing the character in a playstyle that they want to play. 

I think that as it sits now Wolfgang has a lower skill cap and power level.  I go into this myself in my post linked above - I'm glad Klei is open to feedback and pushed the beta branch because they will hopefully arrive at a better Wolfgang when we're done.  A better Wolfgang doesn't need to have a speed boost though.  I think without giving the speed boost back we can reach a more fun Wolfgang that still allows for skillful plays.

Quote

Ultimately what I see as the issue for a lot of players, is that it only affects those people who enjoy rushing bosses who would rather not have that slow down in their gameplay, while those who would rather take their time playing through the game at their own place see little to no issue with the changes

All of this revolves back to the issue of: what "meta" is klei choosing to balance things around, and should that be the case, and thats the idea that I'm trying to lay out

This is clearly false - People who enjoy rushing the game currently enjoy Wolfgang nearly unanimously because he is clearly the best at doing this.  Yet he is not the only combat focused character.  Why should the other combat focused character sit at a clearly lower tier?  Klei isn't taking away his speed buff because they want to slow down speed runs, they are taking it away because it clearly overshadows other combat focused characters.

[bagherthegamer]

 

1 minute ago, sudoku said:

Is "alot better than i thought" really the goal marker we should be using when it comes to the type of content we want?

Well my freind, when i said that i meant alot better than how every one makes it out to be. I mean so many people were just this is not how i wanted it therefore its bad and everyone who doesnt agree is a noob who doesnt listen to "feedback".