Why are character skins developed so far apart?

[1bubbainpa]

Now, I know this is probably the most first-world problem thread I’ve ever made, but it’s something I wanted to bring-up.

Character skins come too little. The only time we seem to consistently get new skins is during Halloween, Christmas, and Lunar New Year. The exception of course is when a character is reworked/refreshed, and get 1-3 skins alongside their release.

We use to have the Verdant skinline, but it seems like production for them has stopped. We also had the Guest of Honor, Survivor, Roseate, and Shadow collection of skins for each of the original survivors and Winona.

So it makes me wonder, why hasn’t klei done more skins for characters? It seems like a good way to make profit for all the free stuff they’ve been giving away lately, and it would be cool to see new themes arise, like Lunar Mutations for the monster cast of survivors.

[minespatch]

I think they should follow up on past skins for characters that need it.

[kilobit]

16 minutes ago, minespatch said:

I think they should follow up on past skins for characters that need it.

Yeah, it definitely would be nice for the whole cast to at LEAST have all of the legacy sets (GoH, Roseate, Triumphant, Survivor, Hallowed Nights) since currently the newer ones feel very empty in the skin department

[Yuuko]

I know they don't like making skins for DLC characters because they don't want to be seen as milking them, but honestly - make more dlc character skins pls!!!

[PasssionFish]

I think in the beta update for troubled waters someone found just text saying something like wurt_rose_skin or something and wilson verdant?

EDIT: found it

[Pikapikap]

make more  character  skins pls! （Including all dlc characters！）

The last time we got the character's series skin was still on Christmas.Wendy's refresh and Walter's arrival are another matter.

God knows how much I want to get the character series skin and item skin every time update. but in the last few game updates, only a few skins are available 

I hope there will be surprises in future updates.

[JoeW]

Because we don't have a lot of resources put into making skins by design and they are putting skins out literally and without exaggeration as fast as they can. 

For us to increase the skins we would have to effectively double the people working on them which would result in a bit less than double the amount of skins and then people would be upset that we are putting out too many skins. =)

[minespatch]

7 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Because we don't have a lot of resources put into making skins by design

I was just assuming that you could go to previous collections and give characters outfit from collections that don't have it yet.

Forlorn Doll could be a intriguing collection for the cast just for how creepy it is.

[1bubbainpa]

16 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Because we don't have a lot of resources put into making skins by design and they are putting skins out literally and without exaggeration as fast as they can. 

For us to increase the skins we would have to effectively double the people working on them which would result in a bit less than double the amount of skins and then people would be upset that we are putting out too many skins. =)

Hmm, I’m guessing skins are harder to make than I originally believed then.

Thank you for the insight though.

[Pikapikap]

22 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Because we don't have a lot of resources put into making skins by design and they are putting skins out literally and without exaggeration as fast as they can. 

For us to increase the skins we would have to effectively double the people working on them which would result in a bit less than double the amount of skins and then people would be upset that we are putting out too many skins. =)

Sir.Thank you for showing up and explaining this to us

[FuriousChimera]

Eventhough we can share item skins by using clean sweeper, I still want to point out some of the frequently-use item is way behind in skin line too.

For example, alchemy engine has one skin that only obtainable via daily drop, compare to manipulator: 2 weavable skins and next update, one more through twichdrop, or end table, top hat and siesta lean to have 0 weavable/market purchases skins.

[Ryde]

2 hours ago, JoeW said:

Because we don't have a lot of resources put into making skins by design and they are putting skins out literally and without exaggeration as fast as they can. 

For us to increase the skins we would have to effectively double the people working on them which would result in a bit less than double the amount of skins and then people would be upset that we are putting out too many skins. =)

Keep up the good work this is a fun game.

[Dr. Safety]

It might just be a fever dream, but I vividly remember the community being upset when Klei was pumping out lots of character skins when there was such an imbalance with the characters (obviously before they even announced the reworks). They listened to our feedback and decided to have the skins take the backseat, while they work on fixing the things we complained about. Nothing but respect for that decision on their part, and this is even coming from the keyboard of the "Warly chef skin" guy.

[wigfrids hat]

may i add one more thing for people who've not seen a character sprite sheet?

so this is the basic default body for wes. the 'skin' part(not counting head) is in the ballpark of about 70 pieces;

https://www.spriters-resource.com/pc_computer/dontstarve/sheet/76784/

i'm a speed artist by trade(meaning that going fast is my selling-point) and i've worked on a few personal projects and community mods with coders so while i am being general i think i can give a little insight. i work about twice the speed of my peer-group and it took me 4 days to come up with a very simple monster character using the wes sprite(i skipped a lot of the arm and leg bits this way). working from scratch would probably have moved it closer to being about 9 days. if you were to double that it should take an artist about 18 days to make a properly drawn skin from scratch but that is only the first step. you then have to take the parts and(depending on how the group animates) either break each piece down to its own file or stack them into their own layers on a main body file and pass it onto someone who can do the rigging(and add code if the current rigs are insufficient). often edits need to be made but barring that i've had people get back to me in about the span of a week for a single character(5-9 days). if we are generous and say two people working on nothing else but the skin do this together it is going to run about 23-27 days if absolutely nothing goes wrong with the code and the art is 100% on the first time and there is an easy way to incorporate the file to the rest of the game. after that you have to test the skin to see if it functions as planned in a multitude of situations(like using the ax, pickax, chest, the engines, the shovel, the hammer, picking things up, harvesting, dropping something, running around/away, interacting with mobs/players/food and emoting). i could not imagine how long that would take and if they wanted to be very thorough they'd to a playtest with several characters not just the one whose skin it is(i mean, a skin for willow might have clipping issues for wurt or wortox and if an outfit built for maxwell's large noggin sits weird or floats on any of the smaller-crowned cast how do you fix it so it looks passable on both or do you redesign something?)

[ShadowDuelist]

I think on some games like tf2 the community designs and programs the skins, then they go through a selection, and if they are good enough they end up in the game. Fortunately many ofthe artists and modders in our community are amazingly talented, and spot on when it comes to respect the original artstyle of the game.

I'm not very knowledgeable of the developing process, but maybe this could add the little extra some people request, by freeing some of Klei's hands? Or perhaps all the curating and implementing process could be even more troublesome than just making them themselves?

Maybe whoever wants to do this and ends up getting a skin selected,  could also get in game special badges (unobtainable otherwise), special portraits (unobtainable otherwise) a special skin (like, "contributor's walking cane", or "collaborator's alchemy engine" or some other relevant skin like that to flex in game, that nobody else could get) and in game currency (spools).

The main selection should probably be made by the community, and the art should respect the original artstyle. 

[Hornete]

I feel people under-estimate how long it takes to create a skin.

I'm not a great artist but it can be quite difficult and time consuming creating a new skin. You need to draw up to 150 or more sprites, though many of them are small simple sprites but it still takes a good while.

I'm content with what we have. I don't think we need more skins. I'm extremely happy with the new updates we've gotten and I couldn't ask for more.

[wigfrids hat]

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think on some games like tf2 the community designs and programs the skins, then they go through a selection, and if they are good enough they end up in the game. Fortunately many ofthe artists and modders in our community are amazingly talented, and spot on when it comes to respect the original artstyle of the game.

I'm not very knowledgeable of the developing process, but maybe this could add the little extra some people request, by freeing some of Klei's hands? Or perhaps all the curating and implementing process could be even more troublesome than just making them themselves?

Maybe whoever wants to do this and ends up getting a skin selected,  could also get in game special badges (unobtainable otherwise), special portraits (unobtainable otherwise) a special skin (like, "contributor's walking cane", or "collaborator's alchemy engine" or some other relevant skin like that to flex in game, that nobody else could get) and in game currency (spools).

The main selection should probably be made by the community, and the art should respect the original artstyle. 

it would be a terrible hassle, you have to sign NDAs, you have to agree to terms of payment(volunteer-work is legally dangerous to do) you have to make sure the person you contract is legally able to BE contracted, you have to assign someone to keep this person up-to-date on what they need to do, you have to trust they won't flake out partway through and if they do something bone-headed during or after the work you commission them to do it becomes your responsibility to decide if the studio can survive the backlash of it(and any court-related issues that may arise from it) or if the work has to be binned and apologies sent out for having the poor taste not to know that the contracted person might be the sort to do something socially/legally unacceptable

 

and if everyone is doing their paperwork correctly there is the issue of taxes, insurance, unions and all that business as well

[Mike23Ua]

My favorite part of this game is the ability to mix and match pieces together like it’s Lego’s to create the unique look I personally want my characters to have. The only body part I can’t change is the Head (I cant put Wendy’s Head on Webber’s Body to make some Spider Gwen thing..) But what I CAN do is mix arms, torso, legs and feet to make my characters look truly unique.

I believe it’s this very reason- why new skins take so long to develop because Klei isn’t just making a new skin for Wormwood for example... they’re instead making a new selectable clothing part that can be applied onto ANY of the games playable characters.

[JoeW]

19 hours ago, 1bubbainpa said:

Hmm, I’m guessing skins are harder to make than I originally believed then.

Thank you for the insight though.

It takes between 3 and 5 days per skin - about a week total time per character skin. That's from start to finish and it's a ton more time for something with variations like Wormwood. 

Roughly speaking it's around a day for concepts, another 2 days for the skin itself another day for the portrait and maybe another day wiggle room for alterations or fixes. Also, depends on how unique the skin is as well which might have a few iterations and changes along the way. 

That's just speaking in linear terms - it takes much longer than that in the real world when artists aren't working on one single thing at any given time. 

That's also at maximum efficiency. All of that is variable of course. New characters, a newer artist or other things (like you know a global pandemic) can stretch this out considerably.

That's why you get so much more when we do item skins, it doesn't take anywhere near as much time per item as it does a character. 

17 hours ago, Dr. Safety said:

It might just be a fever dream, but I vividly remember the community being upset when Klei was pumping out lots of character skins when there was such an imbalance with the characters (obviously before they even announced the reworks). They listened to our feedback and decided to have the skins take the backseat, while they work on fixing the things we complained about. Nothing but respect for that decision on their part, and this is even coming from the keyboard of the "Warly chef skin" guy.

I don't think that was the case exactly- it was more that we were taking more time between updates so the skin sets we larger while we were doing events like The Gorge and The Forge. 

And there weren't any actual updates to the game that lasted, except for the skins. So it was more a re-calibration of where our game development efforts were being focused than anything else. 

 

[Goat Slice]

I can add a modder's perspective to this for fun, just cause I enjoy talkin' about stuff like this so now's my chance! Even though Joe said pretty much all you need to know! And maybe I just wanna talk more about runts development,

Although I had done a lot of DST skins prior to Reign of Runts, for this mod I updated it with 8 of 'em. 2 for each runt character. One runt, Wragonfly, also had an alternate form to account for. I'll focus on the second "unique" skin set since the first one, while still requiring time since it's all from scratch, was still based on pre-existing alts to the bosses (Yule forms).

I'm not a full time dev (yet) on something such as DST, and the mod had already been released and patched up a bit for a month by the time I started. Alongside everything going on irl I had some time to pump these out quicker than I probably would've. But even then they took a lot of energy and my own resources, but not as much as the original sprites did.

The concept art took about a day for both. I was able to start on the first skin later that day.

Then each skin's sprite (including Wfly's alt) took about a day's work. Most would extend into 2 days as said for finishing up. Sometimes 3!

For portraits I was able to do 2 a day, probably a little rushed though as I had 8 to do so I just went "Let's finish it already".

Spoiler

(I feel I could've done a lot better! Maybe next time!)

 

There's ups and downs as to why one might be able do these slower or quicker. I was solo and these fellas have chunky sprites by design so it fluctuates. Especially in a team environment that's developing a lot more than skins.

I wrapped up after about a full week and a couple days. It might sound pretty short for what was pretty much 10 character skins but lemme tell ya, it's a lot more work than one might think. It even takes modders doin' it for free during spare time a lot of work. The result is usually worth it, though! Ans I'd do it again too, it's a worthwhile experience! If I had taken my sweet time I probably could've made 'em even better, that's an aspect of it too. Polish time, expectations, etc!

Reminds me of saying that adding Walani and a Surfboard that surfs is as easy as replicating Woodie's water walking ability. There's more work to it if you want quality!

Besides, skins are wonderful but they're just skins! There's a lot already going on, eh?

Spoiler

And about community made skins? This just really isn't feasible with DST. At least not now. There are so many factors that'd factor into it. The way Klei artists do their work is very different to how a modder would. Not a lotta compatibility there trying to translate one to the other. Having something like community concept art or designs made then Klei artists take over is likely a stronger route, but even then it's shaky. More trouble than its probably worth! My thoughts on that!

 

Thanks for coming to my ted talk, devs work hard! But you already know this. ...Did this even relate to the og post at all?

[Pikapikap]

18 minutes ago, Goat Slice said:

I can add a modder's perspective to this for fun, just cause I enjoy talkin' about stuff like this so now's my chance! Even though Joe said pretty much all you need to know! And maybe I just wanna talk more about runts development,

Although I had done a lot of DST skins prior to Reign of Runts, for this mod I updated it with 8 of 'em. 2 for each runt character. One runt, Wragonfly, also had an alternate form to account for. I'll focus on the second "unique" skin set since the first one, while still requiring time since it's all from scratch, was still based on pre-existing alts to the bosses (Yule forms).

I'm not a full time dev (yet) on something such as DST, and the mod had already been released and patched up a bit for a month by the time I started. Alongside everything going on irl I had some time to pump these out quicker than I probably would've. But even then they took a lot of energy and my own resources, but not as much as the original sprites did.

The concept art took about a day for both. I was able to start on the first skin later that day.

Then each skin's sprite (including Wfly's alt) took about a day's work. Most would extend into 2 days as said for finishing up. Sometimes 3!

For portraits I was able to do 2 a day, probably a little rushed though as I had 8 to do so I just went "Let's finish it already".

  Reveal hidden contents

(I feel I could've done a lot better! Maybe next time!)

 

There's ups and downs as to why one might be able do these slower or quicker. I was solo and these fellas have chunky sprites by design so it fluctuates. Especially in a team environment that's developing a lot more than skins.

I wrapped up after about a full week and a couple days. It might sound pretty short for what was pretty much 10 character skins but lemme tell ya, it's a lot more work than one might think. It even takes modders doin' it for free during spare time a lot of work. The result is usually worth it, though! Ans I'd do it again too, it's a worthwhile experience! If I had taken my sweet time I probably could've made 'em even better, that's an aspect of it too. Polish time, expectations, etc!

Reminds me of saying that adding Walani and a Surfboard that surfs is as easy as replicating Woodie's water walking ability. There's more work to it if you want quality!

Besides, skins are wonderful but they're just skins! There's a lot already going on, eh?

  Reveal hidden contents

And about community made skins? This just really isn't feasible with DST. At least not now. There are so many factors that'd factor into it. The way Klei artists do their work is very different to how a modder would. Not a lotta compatibility there trying to translate one to the other. Having something like community concept art or designs made then Klei artists take over is likely a stronger route, but even then it's shaky. More trouble than its probably worth! My thoughts on that!

 

Thanks for coming to my ted talk, devs work hard! But you already know this. ...Did this even relate to the og post at all?

cute.

[wigfrids hat]

10 hours ago, JoeW said:

snip

 

thankyou for clarifying ^^ for sure though, the power of teamwork really gets things moving quickly, hahaha

[Catteflyterpill]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:19 AM, minespatch said:

I was just assuming that you could go to previous collections and give characters outfit from collections that don't have it yet.

Forlorn Doll could be a intriguing collection for the cast just for how creepy it is.

I would much greatly prefer that they go back and fill up collections for all survivors, I'm unsure why the new Winter's Feast skins were turned into Merry Maker's instead of Snowfallen, but I'd like to see how other survivors might fit with Wortox's Minotaur skin as in some kind of mythical or labyrinth themed characters or Wormwood's Oasis Bound. Maybe it's just the perfectionist coming out of me, but I'd really like for new skins to explore this instead of being new categories.

[sudoku]

Okay but whose feet do I need to rub to get a Pumpkin Wormwood Hallowed Nights skin?

[minespatch]

15 hours ago, Catteflyterpill said:

Maybe it's just the perfectionist coming out of me, but I'd really like for new skins to explore this instead of being new categories.

That's exactly why I'm saying it. We have so many categories, we should just focus on filling them.

Snowfallen and Merrymaker can be two different types just like Halloween and Hallowed are two different collections.,