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Can we stop using germy water for shower and hand washing?


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Reservoirs in chlorine could be much easier if germ sensors worked reliably, without that "you need to send clean packets somehow" thing. Right now they do not seem to be useful for plain pipe+shutoff design, and existing builds rely on timer sensors or just a row of reservoirs (an issue when water is scarce). 

I agree that using water with germs for hand washing is not nice. But the current working designs are not something that a new player would do. They will see that germ sensor, put it in and then try to mess with it in normal mode. Given that I spent several hours in debug and could not get it to work in any simple setup, I would imagine that having this particular experience when trying to design something likely for one of their first times in ONI would be extremely frustrating and discouraging of the game itself. 

On a second thought, it might be not the sensor but the fact that it's not possible to pipe it together with shutoff and bridges to avoid pipe segments with contaminated water, so more than one sensor is needed and this all is getting really non-trivial, and then bridge priority is needed to be known too. Anyway, this all is way too complicated as it is now for simply getting your starter water to be re-used in a plumbed bathroom.

An easier fix would be a designated building, but that would make germ sensor pretty much obsolete. I think the nicest way would be to spread decease from water in sinks and wash basins back to dupes and to fix the germ sensor in some way or another. But probably that's not possible though with the current piping (well, if it stays in the same logic as it was before optimizations).

And just a small addition  - I do not see the original post to be trolling in any way, to be honest.

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9 hours ago, gotnoface said:

Also @watermelen671, I played WoW back in the past and that argument about rested xp seems like a strawman to me.

That's not what a strawman is.

Spoiler

A Straw man argument occurs when someone argues that a person holds a view that is actually not what the other person believes. Instead, it is a distorted version of what the person believes. So, instead of attacking the person's actual statement or belief, it is the distorted version that is attacked.

Anyways I'll link to a video that better explains it than I could.

Spoiler

At around the 1:30 mark.

I'm on mobile. Fight me.

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Correct me if i`m wrong but didn`t the wash basin work like that at least for a while. I mean when you got germy water in it it would leave small amounts on the dupe and on the basin causing a loop that made it imposible to fully clean without deconstructing. Cleaned basin would get germed after a dupe washed in germy water and spread germs to himselff and the basin.

Anyway a closed loop for sinks sounds kinda wrong. At least if there is no germ removing machine on the way. If we use our water sanitation systems then it`s ok.

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I agree there's nothing to be """fixed""" here, it is fine as it is. Irl people use treated water for irrigation, cooling and other miscellaneous tasks. Using soap and treated water (which is used in conjunction in a shower or sink in-game?) isn't a far fetched idea. I think it's very tedious to either keep looking for fresh water in the world (which is limited) or disinfecting it rather than just using the processed water as it is for such tasks. I believe it would bring unnecessary tediousness to early/midgame.

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17 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Lets just make all basic mechanisms more tedious and problematic!

 

Aren't you right next door complaining about people ridiculing other people's ideas?

Please treat others with respect as well.

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I've always liked the idea that germy water sinks would leave some fraction of the germs on you. It seems like an obvious lack in the design. (Germy inputs affect you in making mush bars, in water coolers, and in algae distillers, so why wouldn't they in sinks?) I've been wanting to mod this behavior in for a while, but haven't ever found the time.

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1 hour ago, Loscil2 said:

I agree there's nothing to be """fixed""" here, it is fine as it is. Irl people use treated water for irrigation, cooling and other miscellaneous tasks. Using soap and treated water (which is used in conjunction in a shower or sink in-game?) isn't a far fetched idea. I think it's very tedious to either keep looking for fresh water in the world (which is limited) or disinfecting it rather than just using the processed water as it is for such tasks. I believe it would bring unnecessary tediousness to early/midgame.

Agree.  I always thought sieve should remove germs too.  Anyway  I pump all my toilet water to peppers so I dont care either way.  

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Just now, Greybear said:

I like the idea. But, right now, I don't have any easy or intuitive way to clean water from germs, and I think that would need to be implemented first.

The tepidizer does that (and I think it says that it does in the description).

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Just now, creidieki said:

The tepidizer does that (and I think it says that it does in the description).

I've never actually managed to kill a decent amount of germs by heating the water. And I wouldn't be able to run this through a continuous system without using automation or other tricks. So I would not consider this option easy at this point. I think a dedicated building is required before I would consider this change a good idea.

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6 minutes ago, Greybear said:

I like the idea. But, right now, I don't have any easy or intuitive way to clean water from germs, and I think that would need to be implemented first.

I think someone needs to make a mod for a container that accepts gaseous chlorine as input, consumes it and removes germs from solids contained within, and exactly the same building for gas transit and liquid transit. Ore scrubber is completely outdated when chlorine rooms exist, and it would seem to be that a nice balance would be that chlorine rooms are manual and a pain in the ass to maintain but don't technically consume chlorine VS automated building that consumes gas.

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30 minutes ago, Greybear said:

I've never actually managed to kill a decent amount of germs by heating the water. And I wouldn't be able to run this through a continuous system without using automation or other tricks. So I would not consider this option easy at this point. I think a dedicated building is required before I would consider this change a good idea.

Heating the water kills germs as fast as chlorine. I did it multiple times and with water at around 65-70oC food poisoning is gone. Running it continous is also easy just drop water on one side teptizer in the middle and pump on the other. No germs will reach the other side. It works really good the only issue is the heat it creates. I almost think it would be much better to aquatuner the polluted water below 0 and heat just a bit after for the sieve.

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Being forced to purify water is tricky, but there isn't much reason to purify bathroom water. A fully contained bathroom loop is more of a convenience than a strict necessity.

All the germy outputs from a bathroom can be safely disposed of using reed fiber or a handful of pincha peppers. The water efficiency of pincha pepper is about the same as bristle blossom when used to generate BBQ, half that for stuffed berry and 0 for pepper bread. So good option exist, and you don't have to worry about throwing precious water away just because it has germs.

Heating the water kills germs as fast as chlorine.

That's a pretty dangerous thing to suggest. Heat is a long term danger on most maps and players need to be careful how they manage one of the biggest heat sinks in the game. There are ways to cook water efficiently such as using a counter current system or just pumping it through a refinery. A swimming pool of boiling water will cause long term problems but electrolyzers are a good way to dispose of it.

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2 hours ago, bobucles said:

 A swimming pool of boiling water will cause long term problems but electrolyzers are a good way to dispose of it.

Are electrolyzers not "input temp = output temp" now? Did not get a good reading in Rime in the last days as I was feeding in 20C water.

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3 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

Heating the water kills germs as fast as chlorine. I did it multiple times and with water at around 65-70oC food poisoning is gone. Running it continous is also easy just drop water on one side teptizer in the middle and pump on the other. No germs will reach the other side. It works really good the only issue is the heat it creates. I almost think it would be much better to aquatuner the polluted water below 0 and heat just a bit after for the sieve.

or you can just be lazy and dump it in your cool steam vent :)

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22 hours ago, Gurgel said:

No, it is called a dishonest argument. Either you require realism or not. You cannot do this partially and be honest. Reality is not a buffet where you pick and chose. I am merely pointing out that for something like ONI, the "realism" argument is entirely and fundamentally bogus.

Now, if you say you dislike something and explain this in a game-related fashion, that is something else. But demanding "realism" is not acceptable as an argument.

It is NOT a dishonest argument.  To say a component of the game is not intuitive and confusing because it is so far from "real" that it doesn't make sense is NOT the same as saying a game has to be real.

"realism" is how we perceive the game.  We take our experience in real life to find solutions in a man made reality.  The challenge of this game has never been to make the game "perfect" to our real life reality.  The challenge is how close can we make it so we perceive solutions and understand dynamics well enough to play the game.  

I think you need to try a little harder to understand a persons point of view.  He/She is simply trying to say that the separation from real life is far enough apart it makes the game confusing or feels like an exploit or feels broken.  I think showering to remove germs with water full of germs is in the circle.

Now, if ONI and Klei want to actually explain there game, I am all for a "new" reality, one where we learn what "they" want to make.  But they have never done that with this game.  They have created something that relies on many "rules" of real life, except for what new rules or changes they want to make.  It makes it very hard to understand certain dynamics.  Klei asks you to apply certain "rules" of real life to understand, yet not apply others, but doesn't tell you which ones or make it clear.  I think that in and of itself, especially for a new player, makes his/her argument even stronger.

I think your reaction was a little strong and a touch degrading.  Your argument is basically that his point is fair as long as his motive is more pure to how you see game development.  That is arrogant.

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3 minutes ago, smithdl said:

I think your reaction was a little strong and a touch degrading.  Your argument is basically that his point is fair as long as his motive is more pure to how you see game development.  That is arrogant.

I do not think so. I do think that selectively targeting some features and then calling them "unrealistic" as the only argument why they really need to be changed is intellectually lazy and manipulative. It is basically "because I want it" (which is fine), but trying to give the appearance of a strong rational argument (which is not fine). I am merely pointing out than unless you generally want more realism, the "realism" argument is not an argument at all.

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42 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

Are electrolyzers not "input temp = output temp" now? Did not get a good reading in Rime in the last days as I was feeding in 20C water.

That part doesn't particularly matter. The input water has a much higher specific heat than the output gas. So start with 1kg of 20C water. Use it as a heat sink to absorb up to 90C. That's about 300kDTUs. Electrolyze it into 90C oxygen/hydrogen. Eat the hydrogen in a generator, that heat is gone. Cool the oxygen back down to 20C, that takes roughly 60kDTUs of cooling.

+300kDTUs, - 60kDTUs. Hot electrolyzer water removes heat energy from the system, so it still pays to pipe in the hottest water possible.

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1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

I do not think so. I do think that selectively targeting some features and then calling them "unrealistic" as the only argument why they really need to be changed is intellectually lazy and manipulative. It is basically "because I want it" (which is fine), but trying to give the appearance of a strong rational argument (which is not fine). I am merely pointing out than unless you generally want more realism, the "realism" argument is not an argument at all.

Realism is how you understand this game though.  This whole game is based off of realism.  There are obvious video game short cuts, but all in all, this game is about managing a simulated colony of humans.  They eat, they sleep, they get sick, they even get stressed out and cry.  We have heat transfer and sun burn and food poisoning.  It is through reality that we understand the function of the game.  Most, if not all, suggestions on this forum for gameplay are based on how a concept or process is perceived by a player.  That perception is through it being "real" enough to make sense or be understandable.  To say a component of a game that is based in realism doesn't make sense because it is not real enough is a fair and understandable argument.

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5 minutes ago, bobucles said:

That part doesn't particularly matter. The input water has a much higher specific heat than the output gas. So start with 1kg of 20C water. Use it as a heat sink to absorb up to 90C. That's about 300kDTUs. Electrolyze it into 90C oxygen/hydrogen. Eat the hydrogen in a generator, that heat is gone. Cool the oxygen back down to 20C, that takes roughly 60kDTUs of cooling.

+300kDTUs, - 60kDTUs. Hot electrolyzer water removes heat energy from the system, so it still pays to pipe in the hottest water possible.

Interesting. Makes sense to me. 

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4 minutes ago, smithdl said:

Realism is how you understand this game though.  This whole game is based off of realism.  There are obvious video game short cuts, but all in all, this game is about managing a simulated colony of humans.  They eat, they sleep, they get sick, they even get stressed out and cry.  We have heat transfer and sun burn and food poisoning.  It is through reality that we understand the function of the game.  Most, if not all, suggestions on this forum for gameplay are based on how a concept or process is perceived by a player.  That perception is through it being "real" enough to make sense or be understandable.  To say a component of a game that is based in realism doesn't make sense because it is not real enough is a fair and understandable argument.

I do not find it a compelling argument within the context of a single player sandbox game. Games are for playing. Non-competitive play is for fun. So the amount of realism in a game like this makes no difference if it is not contributing to the fun factor of the game. I find the idea of suggestions like this one rather tedious if not paired with more options. If I want sterilized water for my sink, I can do that now. I would want new and interesting ways to do it before it became a requirement.

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3 minutes ago, nonoxyl said:

I do not find it a compelling argument within the context of a single player sandbox game. Games are for playing. Non-competitive play is for fun. So the amount of realism in a game like this makes no difference if it is not contributing to the fun factor of the game. I find the idea of suggestions like this one rather tedious if not paired with more options. If I want sterilized water for my sink, I can do that now. I would want new and interesting ways to do it before it became a requirement.

And that is just the thing: The more "realistic" it gets, the more tedious and complicated. Engineering complex things that work in the real world is hard and you need years of training and experience be able to do it at all. That cannot be the point of a game like this. For example, while I am good with electronics and logic and basic physics, I have almost no background in chemistry. That means making the game more realistic in the chemical angle would make it less enjoyable for me. Suddenly, this would be "work" and that is exactly not what I want to do for entertainment. At the same time I have absolutely no problem that electronics and logic and basic physics do not work the same in ONI as in the real world. 

The thing is, while the general scenario is based on something about as complex as a short story (no offense meant to Klei, that does work), ONI is very much using alternate physics, chemistry, biology and technology that only have a very lose connection to the versions of these things as observable in this shared illusion usually called "physical reality". That is not a problem, as everything is carefully designed to that you can experiment and find out its characteristics and explore the "science" behind ONI and go from there.

This becomes a problem when people confuse physical reality and what ONI simulates and then demand the second be closer to the first. That argument has no merit. ONI can never even be a reasonable approximation of a simulation of physical reality. They would have to throw out 99% of the game. Hence that argument does not work. An argument of "I find this hard to do" or "this characteristic irritates me" or "this mechanism is not fun" is entirely valid. An argument of "this is not realistic" against a specific aspect of the game is not valid. It also misses the point of ONI completely.

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