A Proper Discussion of Willow's Rework, and why it has no Impact Whatsoever

[Mr.Mulk]

Ok I know this is really soon out of the gate to be making a post but I need to get this off my chest.

I'm pretty much entirely disappointed in the news in Willow's rebalance, and I want to explain why. As someone with about 1700 hours playing both Don't Starve Willow and Don't Starve Together Willow I have the authority (at least on some level) to appraise the rework.

What I was hoping for was a rebalance that gave Willow that unique fire-based niche she has in Don't Starve, the niche which impacts all skill levels of players and all levels of the game (Willow has an absolutely incredible endgame in Don't Starve with Inventory Burning Arenas and FireFarms).
This niche is what made her fun, what made her interesting to play, and it's also the same concept of a niche that makes the other characters interesting to play, for example Wolfgang excelling in combat, or Wortox excelling in team heals and teleportation. Something unique that makes them enjoyable to play.

While others may disagree with me, I think there's no question that Willow's Fire Immunity coupled with her infinite lighter and Inventory burning gave her that incredible niche in Don't Starve (also improved firefarms)
This is Don't Starve Willow in a nutshell:

Spoiler

 

I don't even necessarily need this in DST (although it imo would be perfect) all I'm arguing is that it's what made her fun, which in my opinion is what should really matter at the end of the day.

But instead of this fun unique niche we got this:

Since it may not be obvious, especially to newcomers to the games why this isn't good, I'll break down each point and explain the issues I find with them, then wrap it up in explaining why these even combined don't help the issue.

 

• For the first point, sure I'm glad insanity freezing is gone, it was admittedly kinda useless. It even got nerfed to the point it couldn't actually freeze the player outside of winter, making it a completely nonexistent downside to begin with, so its removal is a good thing.
• For the second point, this harkens what is arguably the most serious problem with this rework, the fact that this downside will only impact newer players (not to mention it sounds like something a mod character would have tacked on for no reason, even if it is logical for Willow).
• The third point is identical to the second in that it'll literally only impact beginner players in any appreciable way, and also once again feels like something that would be thrown onto a mod character for no reason.
• The fourth perk: Why? Why no fire immunity? Why is that just too much to ask for? It's something I don't think I've ever heard someone say they have an issue with. Willow having fire immunity in no way increases griefing, and besides they shouldn't be balancing a character around griefing to begin with!
• The fifth perk: This no damage already was a thing, and was about as helpful as it sounds. Faster extinguish is absolutely useless unless you decided to run summer with no flingos for no reason. So this perk is a total wash.
• The fuel perk is negated because Maxwell exists, I'm sorry but it's true. When adding character perks it's important to consider whether or not another character already solves the problem (which isn't even a real problem except maybe to beginners). So this perk only maybe helps newer players.
• Bernie being equipped for Sanity and Warmth is cool and all but beefalo hats exist and Willow is a sanity tank thanks to her fire regen. I could see this perk maybe occasionally helping for very specific situations, overall not really game changing.
• The new Bernie perks do actually sound potentially interesting beyond that, and it's really telling that in my opinion the Bernie perks have the most potential out of all of this.
• And she keeps her previous perks, which honestly I'm completely neutral on, I'd be ok if they removed the cooking of the lighter at the cost of infinite durability, but that's another topic for another day?

So what's the takeaway from all of this? The takeaway is that none of these perks actually make her anymore fun to play and don't help anyone besides maybe new players, they're just kind of a cobbled mess that appears to be thrown together. Whether or not that's actually true I have no idea, but certainly if Klei can make Wortox they can do better than this for Willow, this is what I'd expect from a mod character's perk list. I would rather she have less perks and a real downside granted the perks actually matter for once, and impact all skill levels of players and all levels of gameplay. I want that niche that makes her great in Don't Starve.

I just want Willow to actually be decent again, to actually not get insulted and instabanned from servers for picking her, I've dealt with that for the past 3 years and I finally had some hope she'd be good again in this rework. However if this is what we're getting the reality is she'll be almost identical to her status now.
As always please keep things civil in the comments. I'm not trying to direct any ill-will in this post.

Addendum:
Also there's a mouse cursor in her promo art

Spoiler

 

[Canis]

This. So much this.

[Ressayez]

Listen to Sans, he actually likes and plays Willow for some reason.

[Primalflower]

thank you mulk

[Bluegeist]

7 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The fifth perk: This no damage already was a thing, and was about as helpful as it sounds. Faster extinguish is absolutely useless unless you decided to run summer with no flingos for no reason. So this perk is a total wash.

I do not recall "no damage when extinguishing" as an already established perk. Mind that I don't play her much and I don't completely understand her code atm. Could you elaborate?

[Mr.Mulk]

Just now, Bluegeist said:

I do not recall "no damage when extinguishing" as an already established perk. Mind that I don't play her much and I don't completely understand her code atm. Could you elaborate?

It wasn't codified but because she has 3 seconds of fire resist she wouldn't take damage when extinguishing fires. It was so minor most people didn't even notice it, which is really not the best indicator that it should be considered a real perk.

[CookieTheRookie]

Thank you!!!

[-Variant]

This.

Yehaw.

[GuyNamedChris]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

It wasn't codified but because she has 3 seconds of fire resist she wouldn't take damage when extinguishing fires. It was so minor most people didn't even notice it, which is really not the best indicator that it should be considered a real perk.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with her fire resist. This perk was slipped in with a small DST update way back when. It flew completely under the radar for most people. When you extinguish fires you're supposed to take a base 3 dmg, Willow doesn't.

[Viktor234]

18 minutes ago, Mr.Mulk said:

So what's the takeaway from all of this? The takeaway is that none of these perks actually make her anymore fun to play and don't help anyone besides maybe new players, they're just kind of a cobbled mess that appears to be thrown together.

I had fun playing Willow even before they announced her remake.

[Mr.Mulk]

Just now, Viktor234 said:

I had fun playing Willow even before they announced her remake.

Spoiler

 

 

[Fidooop]

One hundred percent agreed on every point of this post. She needs less tiny perks/drawbacks, some nice big pros to compete with Winona and Wortox, and a fun and challenging drawback.

I full heartedly believe THIS is what should be done to Willow: 

Thoughts?

[Rellimarual]

Pretty sure the forums in Hell are filled with neverending character rebalance debates.

[Datanon]

Just now, Fidooop said:

One hundred percent agreed on every point of this post. She needs less tiny perks/drawbacks, some nice big pros to compete with Winona and Wortox, and a fun and challenging drawback.

this. although i personally dont like the inventory fire from DS because im pretty sure it isnt intended and feels sketchy, i feel like she needs a more noticeable upside and downside; i like the bernie idea but i think relying on having a pet to help you fight monsters is already a signature of wendy and (maybe) maxwell

[Chris Snowstorm]

Thank you for this post. Back in our server i made a little rant about how Willow's character was so unique because of her super dangerous downsides that nobody else has, and in DST it would be a gift for experienced players learning to play with a fun and tricky character, many people said "That would be too much griefing". Yet we have many alternatives in the vanilla game, we have the smoldering feature and extinguish functions, and if that isn't enough, we have rollback features, the mod community at out disposal, or just ban every Willow you see out of fear, because that keeps happening in 2019 my boys! 

[Mr.Mulk]

Just now, Datanon said:

this. although i personally dont like the inventory fire from DS because im pretty sure it isnt intended and feels sketchy, i feel like she needs a more noticeable upside and downside; i like the bernie idea but i think relying on having a pet to help you fight monsters is already a signature of wendy and (maybe) maxwell

Yeah I can respect that stance (even though I like inv burn in my opinion), really what I'm arguing here is more that I want the same kind of niche impact inventory burning had, not necessarily the perk itself.

While it's sort of off-topic I would be open to maybe making inv burning less sketchy (proper animations and mechanics attached to it), maybe rebalancing it for DST (perhaps a reasonable limit?) so it's not potentially insane, but still useful and interesting.

[YouKnowWho]

I personally don't think they're all that bad. Not every character has to completely change the way you play, right? 

[Mr.Mulk]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho said:

I personally don't think they're all that bad. Not every character has to completely change the way you play, right? 

For me a key part of a character is that they solve real issues with their perks and have real downsides which act as consequences for character choice. This gives weight to the character, actual meaning and purpose.
While Willow is not made any worse off by the rework (barely) she's not made any better, and she still needs that niche that makes the other characters so much fun. She needs a couple of real perks, and one real downside, which should apply to all skill levels of players and all parts of the game (or at least as much of each as possible). Tacking on a bunch of random "mod character perks" as I'd call them isn't really helping the situation.

And I agree, not every character needs an overhaul, but I think Willow most certainly did.

[Siorm]

1 hour ago, Mr.Mulk said:

The fourth perk: Why? Why no fire immunity? Why is that just too much to ask for? It's something I don't think I've ever heard someone say they have an issue with. Willow having fire immunity in no way increases griefing, and besides they shouldn't be balancing a character around griefing to begin with!

This. I mean .. you could play Wickerbottom and fill the base with tentacles and spam The End is Nigh. Or play Woodie and eat all the chests. There's a lot of grief potential that's just not a Willow thing.

Also i really hope that Bernie changes mean a future buff to insanity.

[Bluegeist]

I know people want total fire immunity, but is it needed? Could any task improved by fire immunity be done in 6 seconds, and if not, can it be managed (example: walk away before the 6 seconds are up and then walk back)

[Toros]

27 minutes ago, Bluegeist said:

I know people want total fire immunity, but is it needed? Could any task improved by fire immunity be done in 6 seconds, and if not, can it be managed (example: walk away before the 6 seconds are up and then walk back)

It’s not needed for the same reason you rarely see anyone use scaled armor: fire immunity just isn’t that helpful.

Fire immunity vs fire resist, especially when overheating is a factor becomes more of a flavor difference than an actual power difference.  Mentally, being immune to fire feels a lot more satisfying than having a mental timer counting off the seconds of resistance.

I think the reason a lot of people are upset Willow isn’t fire immune is because the vast majority of Willow players wanted her to be fire immune, and if Klei was getting their feedback it’d be an easy and low impact request to grant.

The proposed rework changes are a large variety of low impact, already existing, and non-cohesive perks that don’t give her any clear “style” of gameplay.  They also don’t make her (from what we can tell) mechanically stronger than she was before, though if mass bernies are strong then we’ll see.

[IcyHarpy]

NVM

[Bluegeist]

8 minutes ago, Toros said:

It’s not needed for the same reason you rarely see anyone use scaled armor: fire immunity just isn’t that helpful.

Fire immunity vs fire resist, especially when overheating is a factor becomes more of a flavor difference than an actual power difference.  Mentally, being immune to fire feels a lot more satisfying than having a mental timer counting off the seconds of resistance.

I think the reason a lot of people are upset Willow isn’t fire immune is because the vast majority of Willow players wanted her to be fire immune, and if Klei was getting their feedback it’d be an easy and low impact request to grant.

The proposed rework changes are a large variety of low impact, already existing, and non-cohesive perks that don’t give her any clear “style” of gameplay.  They also don’t make her (from what we can tell) mechanically stronger than she was before, though if mass bernies are strong then we’ll see.

That's the thing, I think we need to see her entire rework in action. The Bernie buff may be a game changer. Time will tell.

[Toros]

5 minutes ago, Bluegeist said:

That's the thing, I think we need to see her entire rework in action. The Bernie buff may be a game changer. Time will tell.

She might overall be better, but she still has a lot of low impact perks.  Increased/decreased damage from freezing and overheating is bad design because it’s such a trivial mechanic anyway.

Most people would like Willow not to be strong entirely due to Bernie, and the addition/retention of a lot of near forgettable perks doesn’t inspire confidence.

That said, I hope I’m wrong and we’ll all be pleasantly surprised on the 7th.

[Trenix]

I agree with none of what you said. Also outside of fire immunity, you've suggested nothing either. Fire immunity seems overpowered and makes Willow once again a tool for griefing. You also talk about skilled players and say how all of this only benefits or hurts new players, but a skilled player doesn't need any real advantage to survive and thrive. This is what we got, not included the current and remaining perks...

• Willow is stronger is summer.
• Willow is weaker in winter.
• Willow is immune and takes less damage from fire.
• Willow is a firefighter (cooperative benefit).
• Willow requires less fuel for a campfire (cooperative benefit).
• Willow can use Bernie to keep her warm and sane to combat her weakness.
• Bernie now beats up monsters when Willow is near (cooperative benefit).

I am really excited for these benefits and so is my wife. It's pretty cool to have an actual person who's in charge of keeping the fire lit, taking out fires, and protecting us from shadows. Why you think this is bad is beyond me. Another thing to note, it seems like no matter what the developers do with the characters, majority remain unhappy, though they can't come up with anything better besides "make her like in Don't Starve, the original!" Despite this being a multiplayer game where there has to be actual balance.