Expressive Upgrade Testing Branch is now Open! - 277292

[watermelen671]

Just now, avc15 said:

expecting exists to *prevent* overcrowding. Auto-wrangle fulfills this function now.

You can't auto-wrangle babies (yet) anyways. So why not just set it to below the expecting threshold?

[avc15]

Sure, I could set my ranch sized for 8 to a population of 7. When 2 eggs get laid the whole thing still goes "expecting" and reproduction all stops even with the measures I took. Now, I could set the pop limit to 3 in a ranch sized for 8, and they would never ever become expecting. (Or does it work with 4?)

If expecting wasn't a thing, I'd just set the limit to 8. Every time a baby popped out (population 9) one of my adults would get wrangled out.

I'm just advocating a smaller set of mechanics, one that makes more intuitive sense and takes less learning. I don't think expecting is a necessary mechanic anymore. (it was introduced before we had auto wrangle and solved a very large problem *at that time* - in mk1?)

 

But, opinions will vary, of course.

Edited July 13, 2018 by avc15

[Asteru]

20 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

I never had issues with eggs. Usually I run full ranches of a species. Whenever they get to be expecting, I mark one egg with a priority 9 sweep and select it at the egg cracker. The egg will be picked up and no other.

Yea, it’s not difficult to go do a sweep manually or manually put the number of eggs to crack in an egg cracker. That’s not really the point. The point is the amount of micromanagement needed for just this one aspect of the game that makes it tedious to the point where you just dread dealing with it. Even streamers are doing it less and less each play through cause it’s annoying for little benefit. The auto wrangle was a big help. That’s the reason the rail egg storage workaround came into existence in the first place. Now we need something to help with egg management in a proper way. Im not advocating the elimination of dupes having to do extra work or anything with it, it should just auto generate those activities like your dupes moving things to storage already from the ground. I’m also not recommending we go back to just shove all eggs in a compactor and let them all mass hatch from there, and that was too easy and eliminated the need for the incubator. But there has to be a reasonable way to keep a small stored supply of eggs to put in incubator when you need it, without having to be constantly concerned you cracked it, or it expired.  For the getting rid of eggs, maybe just tie it to the auto wrangle from the drop off point to always flag eggs to be moved to storage based on priority number. Then you’d add a special stasus type storage for just a couple eggs max that you can keep stocked with higher priority, and overflow the rest to a fridge to be cracked at egg cracker with the repeating order. they can still go stale and expire in the fridge like now, but just don’t expire in the small status storage. This way you can crack away at eggs without the worry of accidentally killing off the species, while not having to constantly be checking it over and over and dealing with it. Unfortunately, I don’t really foresee people putting up with the micromanagement too long and see regular players start following the streamers who are for the most part skipping it now  

Another example of of this type of micromanagement is the regolith removal. Having to manually keep giving orders to get rid of it. It’s not sustainable without wanting to choke someone. The placement of tile blueprints at a priority 1 so they auto clear is obviously cheesy but it’s the only sane way to do it now without the micromanagement. For this maybe link it to tidy somehow where they’ll go clean off tiles/doors that have regolith on them but ignore regolith cleanup if it’s not on one of them. So they aren’t getting rid of regolith all over the unused surface areas. 

Anyway, Micromanging your dupes is good and fine. Micromanaging those other aspects doesn’t really make the game enjoyable and makes those areas of the game avoided, which I really hate to see. And I do think these are still things it should cost your dupes time to do, but not your time as the player to have to deal with tedium repeatedly.  I could b completely wrong, but I think We’d all rather be trying to build the next big thing in our colony instead of playing the Ranching/regolith whack-a-mole for 40+ hours a colony. 

[thewreckedangle]

23 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

If there is nothing left to manage for the player anymore, it's a simulation and not a game anymore

^

[TLW]

4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

If there is nothing left to manage for the player anymore, it's a simulation and not a game anymore.

I take it you don't enjoy Factorio.

[avc15]

4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

I myself don't need to be pampered around;

It's funny how two different groups of people choose words to describe an issue.

To one group, a vestigal mechanic that could be removed entirely without much notice, one less thing for the player to manage.

To another group, pampering, unnecessary simplification, dumbing down.

 

It's like two political parties in a TV debate. Talking about the same subject but never actually communicating.

OK folks, what we have is a roll of paper.

"No, all I see is a square"

"You must be dreaming, that's clearly a circle"

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by avc15

[goboking]

6 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

firmly disagree. I myself don't need to be pampered around; having to do some micro management myself, even if just 10 seconds each cycle because that's all that is to it,  If there is nothing left to manage for the player anymore, it's a simulation and not a game anymore. Btw, the benefits outweight the effort. The effort you put it in pays itself back in terms of raw resources and food for your dupes.

So you're telling me that players who use Auto-Sweepers in their colony, or the Electric Grill's infinite cook option, or those who don't click a Storage Compartment's "Sweep Only" box are pampered?  Do you also look down on those of us who use Atmo Sensors to turn off our Algae Deoxidizers instead of manually monitoring gas pressure ourselves?  Am I a bad person for not disabling the Auto-Disinfect option?

[Gurgel]

People that tell _other_ people how they should play and what they should enjoy have a problem. Those doing it: Stop it now.

That said, everybody currently sets themselves different goals and that is entirely fine. I, for example, want a fully automated base and I could not care less that some people disagree with that idea. It is my time, and my decision.

[irOninfernO]

i think it should be obvious by now but i have to report these things.

1. dupe don't eat outside of leisure even when they are starving.

2. dupe don't poop outside of leisure even when they have bladder full.

that it.

[goboking]

4 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

Nobody is judging you for that.

That may not have been your intent, but when you say "I don't do X because I'm not Y" you're inferring that those of who do do X are Y.  In this discussion Y = Pampered.  To many (most?) people, being called pampered is going go feel like they're being judged.  Again, you may not have meant it that way, but that's certainly how it reads.

 

9 minutes ago, turbonl64 said:

ealise that this is a discussion about people wanting to see a certain change which will influence the gameplay for everyone.

How would such a change negatively impact your experience?  Could you not refrain from using a hypothetical egg storage unit and continue to play exactly as you do now?

[Flydo]

On 12/07/2018 at 9:11 PM, Scorpio King said:

Nooo, they gonna talk and fool around!? I need them to work. WORK HARDER! This is not a vacation, its survival of the fittest!

Did you try to use red alert when reccreational time?

I'm sure about this since i see the recreationnal room with no use.

Now the dupe will continue to work without stopping for pee or eat (i hope they could wait so long without pee

And i hope if they are really starving they stop the work to eat and not continue to work and die

[vonVile]

1 hour ago, iron8 said:

i think it should be obvious by now but i have to report these things.

2. dupe don't poop outside of leisure even when they have bladder full.

There's a bug with Laboratories and Dupes operating equipment. They won't get off what they are using to go to use a Laboratory, but they will get off for an Outhouse. I have one Outhouse functioning and there's no pee, but the second that's disabled pee is everywhere.

Edited July 14, 2018 by vonVile

[irOninfernO]

1 hour ago, vonVile said:

There's a bug with Laboratories and Dupes operating equipment. They won't get off what they are using to go to use a Laboratory, but they will get off for an Outhouse. I have one Outhouse functioning and there's no pee, but the second that's disabled pee is everywhere.

no worries , ill play the eXpPrEsSiOn update when it is fix. thanks for the reply!

[Yury Ko]

I'm annoyed by this build.
1. Dupes like children, do not look at their needs as before, pee going under themselves during work and sleep, with working toilets.

2. because of a break in work, the game cycle now stretched near 50 - 70%
At the same time, I did not notice any compensation at the beginning of the game
The volume of water and food is the same as it was before.

I can not imagine how this will affect new players, the game has become heavily tightened in the beginning.
Half a day goes on wiping and a break in work before going to bed.

In my opinion, the build is too raw to run.

• Duplicates should not ignore their needs for food and toilets at work, it's natural in the real world, why should the game be different? 

it interfered with interrupts in tasks - yes, but it was possible:

• Add a condition so that dupes complete the task before retiring to rest,

if you need a balance make a requirement to sleep longer (I saw this in the game, dupes sleep half a day after work at night)

• Do not dismiss the task of the dupes after retiring to sleep, for non-urgent tasks, let him return and finish his work.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Yury Ko

[asmallrabbit]

The issue im seeing with this is its introducing more time management and priorities etc like Rimworld, but Rimworld is colony management on a different level. I personally don't see the need for leisure time and break schedules, the only real problem with bathroom time and eating in ONI is that the dupes will interupt anything they are doing and lead to them running across the map repeatedly in the middle of jobs. 

All you would really need to do is change the thresholds for when a dupe does these activities, let them finish whatever job they are in the middle of first, and dont have them wait until they are almost critical to relieve themselves or eat. Have them eat when they are close to food instead of waiting till they are across the map and starving, have them use bathrooms when they are close to them before they are about to wet themselves and nowhere nearby.

[Yury Ko]

4 hours ago, asmallrabbit said:

All you would really need to do is change the thresholds for when a dupe does these activities, let them finish whatever job they are in the middle of first, and dont have them wait until they are almost critical to relieve themselves or eat. Have them eat when they are close to food instead of waiting till they are across the map and starving, have them use bathrooms when they are close to them before they are about to wet themselves and nowhere nearby.

1

+1

of course, why invent another bicycle!
Klei please don't spend time on time management it's pretty good at last build, make other cool things!

Edited July 16, 2018 by Yury Ko

[Kabrute]

When the dupe gets a "Check for new jobs" it should first check Bladder<85% then kcal>2k, then look for a job. Having food and bathroom breaks performed as a part of the "next task" list.
Personally i'm not playing the eu because I can't set up the schedules and bathroom breaks being micro managed by the chip in my  head is no way to live.....

[Yury Ko]

27 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

When the dupe gets a "Check for new jobs" it should first check Bladder<85% then kcal>2k, then look for a job. Having food and bathroom breaks performed as a part of the "next task" list.
Personally i'm not playing the eu because I can't set up the schedules and bathroom breaks being micro managed by the chip in my  head is no way to live.....

but it does not work for now. I spend 2 days for this **** in my last game and 300+ cycles to try management this. Dupes just pee when working, like create energy on the wheel, moved food, etc. all this near the toilets, when sleep(like children's yah?).

it's probably cool to create social elements in the game, but I think it's a lot of work, if you wanna do good work, you probably will have to create the same amount of content as you have already created from the start.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Yury Ko

[Djoums]

The idea of timeshifts and leisure time is nice but currently it forces you to either micromanage your outhouses or make a lot more of them than you should need. The problem is they all go at the same time, so if your outhouses don't have enough "charges" left, the unlucky duplicants won't be able to relieve themselves and will most likely make a mess during the night. The dupes in charge of tidying can't see that coming (would be nice) so having more of them dedicated to this task doesn't solve the issue, you have to manually flag the outhouses for cleaning or build a lot of them.

[thewreckedangle]

i kinda feel like i must not be playing the same game as some of you guys..

this update, while small in terms of added "stuff" is actually incredibly excellent. i have had no problems with duplicants peeing anywhere they shouldn't, food seems easier even (my guys living on bbq and stuffed berries for the first time in ever) sure, things take a little longer now they have their breaks and such, the way they talk and comment as they walk by one another or witness certain things, is absolutely ADORABLE, but also, this gives you a chance to remember that these little guys are actually doing all this stuff you ask. give them a break sometime. 

I think it's too easy to get into a pattern and it basically involves speed 3 and everything done NOW! this update, almost "forces" you to go slower, take some time. i love it. it reminded me why i love this game and why i have thousands of hours in it. The duplicants, themselves <3

thank you Klei.

(sorry if this is a bit jumbled)

[BlueLance]

20 minutes ago, thewreckedangle said:

i kinda feel like i must not be playing the same game as some of you guys..

We definently are XD

• I find the breaks are not causing any severe headaches other than it being too long.
• My dupes will starve themselves unless it is meal time if anything happens to my food chain or they are far from base and go to the toilet instead of eating.
• Starving dupes don't eat and same for dupes who need to go to the toilet unless it is break time, so if something happens to stop a dupe doing these then its a one way trip
• My dupes seem to really enjoy conversing whilst in the middle of a build and it gets worse the more dupes I have working on the build (I even had two dupes almost 20 tiles apart shooting each other with their fingers) btw both those dupes never finished their task until the next morning XD
• Unless I have missed it Quality of Life seems pretty vague, I cannot tell how much they get from the water cooler or arcade.

[Moggles]

Adorable and cute. Meh. Sorry I don't see it. People actually like that stuff? Yuck. Each to their own.

Does nothing to enhance gameplay. All I see is dupes doing sod all for another portion of the cycle. Hardly riveting gameplay to watch them stand around doing nothing. It's just extended the already dull as dishwasher night time period and you just wanna debug 10x speed through the drudgery.

Yes work time is more focussed sure but it's not a satisfying trade off for me.

[Megouski]

This build is broken. Im not sure this can all be fixed in 1 week, but I am turning off all updates to this game for the foreseeable future. I really enjoy the idea of the expressive stuff and the quality of life point system, but this was not even ready for a preview it was not really thought out well. You can see dozens of issues just for playing 1 hour, its not fun. This game is about time management, and we somehow need to trade fun expressiveness for loss of time? Why?

 

Also why are you adding this stuff when basic things like blueprints. block picking and frequently accessed blocks are still not in the game? These are vital pieces to a game like this. Dont build the game so top-heavy that it threatens to fall over. New features are welcome but finish the foundation please. You're basically adding dupe #10 while supplying all your oxygen from only one deoxydizer.  We need infrastructure now, more paintings later.

 

TLDR:

Expressiveness

The idea 9/10

The implementation 2/10

Priority 5/10

Priority to add needed features first from above 10/10 with all dupes at very high priority. Who wishes they could set development priority through a voting system? It would be in everyones best interest for the community to say what they want and the dev team to deliver. That = $$$, that = fun. Who loses there?

Edited July 17, 2018 by Megouski

[Im_not_Included]

1 hour ago, Megouski said:

This build is broken. Im not sure this can all be fixed in 1 week, but I am turning off all updates to this game for the foreseeable future. I really enjoy the idea of the expressive stuff and the quality of life point system, but this was not even ready for a preview it was not really thought out well. You can see dozens of issues just for playing 1 hour, its not fun. This game is about time management, and we somehow need to trade fun expressiveness for loss of time? Why?

 

Also why are you adding this stuff when basic things like blueprints. block picking and frequently accessed blocks are still not in the game? These are vital pieces to a game like this. Dont build the game so top-heavy that it threatens to fall over. New features are welcome but finish the foundation please. You're basically adding dupe #10 while supplying all your oxygen from only one deoxydizer.  We need infrastructure now, more paintings later.

 

TLDR:

Expressiveness

The idea 9/10

The implementation 2/10

Priority 5/10

Priority to add needed features first from above 10/10 with all dupes at very high priority. Who wishes they could set development priority through a voting system? It would be in everyones best interest for the community to say what they want and the dev team to deliver. That = $$$, that = fun. Who loses there?

This makes me sad because every single update there's someone that posts something like this. Please don't opt in to a test branch if this is how you will react. It's perfectly fine if the testing branch isn't for you, it's always super rough the first week. To throw in the towel like this right out of the gate makes us as a fan base lose credibility. How can the devs truly Gage if something is broken, if every six weeks someone says "this is unplayable, I'm not gonna play it cuz it's not perfectly how I wanted/imagined".

 

Full disclosure: I HATED TO THE DEPTHS OF MY BEING the automation upgrade at first. It was useless to me because I thought "that is what dupes are for". I would have advocated heavily to not have it happen. Thank God they didn't hear me because OMG THERES SO MANY AMAZING STUFF YOU CAN DO NOW. 

 

Give it a chance. There are sucky parts now, but klei has yet to make me regret buying this game. If this testing isn't your cup of tea, then don't opt in. If you want to opt in but give constructive feedback, do it! But don't  go 10/10 full rage on something you can handle at like 5/10 anger. I can't hear your concerns over your rageholic ultimatum. 

[Flydo]

4 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

You sir are an idiot. This is very early development, the developers even said so. What were you expecting for Pete's sake.

I think many people see the game like the game is finish and dev add new content every 6 week. But reality disapoint them, cause all the game is still in beta dev, so it's obvious that the early development you can do with the beta branch meaning "be prepare to play a game full of bug cause we need you to find it".

11 hours ago, Megouski said:

This build is broken. Im not sure this can all be fixed in 1 week, but I am turning off all updates to this game for the foreseeable future. I really enjoy the idea of the expressive stuff and the quality of life point system, but this was not even ready for a preview it was not really thought out well. You can see dozens of issues just for playing 1 hour, its not fun. This game is about time management, and we somehow need to trade fun expressiveness for loss of time? Why?

This game is still in early access, for that you get it cheaper, so sometimes you will encounter some trouble in the game, and you except to have a perfect build in beta branch testing....non sense....beta branch is for people who want to help dev or test the future update before official update launch on an EARLY ACESS GAME

“Since 2012, Klei has used Early Access as a tool to gather feedback and build our games in collaboration with our community, producing games like Don’t Starve, Don’t Starve Together and Invisible Inc.. We’ve found this process works for us, and we hope you find it works for you, too."