[Game Update] - Herd Mentality (BETA 198138)

[Lumina]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Eeem... I'm not entirely sure what this sentence is supposed to imply...

The bosses have a lot more HP. It's fine when people could fight together, but when i'm alone, it's too much and the ratio difficulty/fun is bad. So less fun.

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I really don't know what your mindset here is, but it's weird.

Not really. I play for fun and survival (because survival allow me to play more), and sometime, the fun make me do things that are dangerous and don't directly help survival, leading to be in more dangerous situations than if i focus on survival. It's not big things, it's small things, but sometime enough to make game harder.

You have a different playstyle, probably a better playstyle since you find the game too easy. But your playstyle isn't universal. For some players, the game could be harder with more things to do.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

3 minutes ago, Lumina said:

1) The bosses have a lot more HP. It's fine when people could fight together, but when i'm alone, it's too much and the ratio difficulty/fun is bad. So less fun.

2) Not really. I play for fun and survival (because survival allow me to play more), and sometime, the fun make me do things that are dangerous and don't directly help survival, leading to be in more dangerous situations than if i focus on survival. It's not big things, it's small things, but sometime enough to make game harder.

You have a different playstyle, probably a better playstyle since you find the game too easy. But your playstyle isn't universal. For some players, the game could be harder with more things to do.

1) Good point. Some people have discussed how to balance it better, actually... can't remember the thread, but the mechanics, as the discussion went along were very well thought out later on; like, when a boss spawns in, the health would be determined by the amount of people nearby, but, it would also determine how much loot the boss drops, so the more health it has (which comes from the result of more player being there), the more loot gets dropped upon its death, which might not make a whole lot of sense (unless perhaps the boss' scale also changes based on that or something, like you have the three levels for the shadow pieces, just a different mechanic though), but would be very good in terms of balance and reward, without needing to have any cheese strats put at play  (like, exiting game before the boss spawns, leaving one player in, then everybody else joining in to beat the boss with less hp for the same loot).

2) That really is weird. I've never had that kind of experience at least, not sure about others here, but I've never seen anyone else who's pro be like that. I've known some pros who like to rush things and then barely or not even getting there in terms of defense of beating a boss, but not anything like what you have described with your experience. If more content is oriented at being the way it currently is, then it'll be harder and better for you. If more content is oriented around being consequential or things attacking you just because, this would make things better for people like me AND for people like you, just possibly not in the same way. And it would meet the goal of what the game was and is supposed to be all about, which is "everything is out to kill you". I really don't like the fact that people who want the game to be more of a club-penguin thing pushing or being the result of the game being made with more optional things. That isn't what the game is supposed to have and it's a kick in the balls if the goal is just suddenly announced by klei or simply deviated without care towards something completely different. Changing the game's goal is something you don't do in the middle/near the end of its development, because that's some really infuriating ****, if you ask me.

I really don't want to say this like this, but for the sake of game's initial purpose, the game's design needs to change to be more "everything is out to kill you" and not "you're out to kill everything if you want to" and you should really suck it up or have mods on that make it easier/different so long as the initial purpose has fans that are supportive of it. I'm sorry, but I don't know how else to summarize this. The game's initial design ideals should take priority in comparison to all the cute and fuzzy and decorative stuff along side with optional things to do, considering there are still people who are very much supportive of the initial goal. I, OgreCakes, Mobbstar, Ecu to my knowledge and possibly plenty other people are still supportive of the initial idea and you, even if you're now a majority, taking away this initial goal path would just be sad and a kick in the balls for us.

[Zeklo]

14 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

 

Not quoting anything in particular here, but I'd like to address your "initial design" mindset.

Games evolve, perhaps this counts as devolving to you  so change might be a better word.

Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together have different crowds. Most die hard singleplayer fans just can't or don't want to distinguish this. Fact is, the game's changing, so you can change with it or be left behind. Simply because contorting to the minorities ideals instead of the majority just doesn't make sense in the field of games.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

11 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Not quoting anything in particular here, but I'd like to address your "initial design" mindset.

Games evolve, perhaps this counts as devolving to you  so change might be a better word.

Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together have different crowds. Most die hard singleplayer fans just can't or don't want to distinguish this. Fact is, the game's changing, so you can change with it or be left behind. Simply because contorting to the minorities ideals instead of the majority just doesn't make sense in the field of games.

I'm talking about what the initial game's goal was and what it is. If you listen to what [insert whomever this Klei member is, sry idk] talks about and mentions, then this still stands:

And even then, DST was supposed to be a multiplayer version of the single player experience we had before. The way survival mode handles death makes it impossible to have long runs at all (that is beyond one year or so), the game is deviating away from the idea of "everything is out to kill you" and towards "you are out to kill everything if you want to".

So, what the hell is this game then? What the hell is it supposed to be now?! A social sandbox like club penguin? I really hate the fact that people who think the game should be more like that, just came in and threw the initial idea out the window. Real thanks guys, real thanks. Now the whole 1800 hours I've spent on the game and the time I've spent on DST section of the forum have been wasted and same goes for some other people. Real thanks.

[GiddyGuy]

10 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

[insert whomever this Klei member is, sry idk]

That's @Corey, I think he was the plushie slave.

Edited November 27, 2016 by GiddyGuy

[Zeklo]

3 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

I'm talking about what the initial game's goal was and what it is. If you listen to what [insert whomever this Klei member is, sry idk] talks about and mentions, then this still stands:

I understand that. It was the initial goal. So I feel this doesn't still stand, since as you've stated it's deviated from that. 

Hence why I said it's changing.

As for the whole "everything is out to kill you" and towards "you are out to kill everything if you want to". I can see where you're coming from, I personally prefer the DSs dragonfly to DSTs, but it also just felt like a deerclops copy. End of season = boss comes to base. At a certain point it gets over saturated as an idea.

That goes for raidbosses in DST too. At first it was a new fresh idea but it's the new thing now.

There's only so much you can do with "everything is out to kill you" before that theme becomes bland. That goes for everything though.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

10 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I understand that. It was the initial goal. So I feel this doesn't still stand, since as you've stated it's deviated from that. 

Hence why I said it's changing.

As for the whole "everything is out to kill you" and towards "you are out to kill everything if you want to". I can see where you're coming from, I personally prefer the DSs dragonfly to DSTs, but it also just felt like a deerclops copy. End of season = boss comes to base. At a certain point it gets over saturated as an idea.

That goes for raidbosses in DST too. At first it was a new fresh idea but it's the new thing now.

There's only so much you can do with "everything is out to kill you" before that theme becomes bland. That goes for everything though.

Not true. Check out my Bee Queen and Toadstool suggestions. I've suggested mechanics that no other boss actually has in the game. Regardless, if the game is going to (and it really should, because otherwise it's a goddamn joke!) stay true to its ideal of "everything is out to kill you", then these sorts of things ought to be the way to do it. Regardless of how you think the game should be in terms of its design mechanisms, it isn't a game that's been transferred well as a multiplayer experience on so many levels for sure.

[Zeklo]

1 minute ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

it isn't a game that's been transferred well as a multiplayer experience on so many levels for sure.

All I can say to this, is that's your opinion. I don't expect to change it, but my own does differ. 

[TemporaryMan]

1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

The way survival mode handles death makes it impossible to have long runs at all (that is beyond one year or so), the game is deviating away from the idea of "everything is out to kill you" and towards "you are out to kill everything if you want to".

Doesn't that happen once you get good at kiting, though?  I got a thousand day world in single-player DS.  Not a single tentacle left in it.  I've wiped out merm villages in Adventure Mode, too.  With Maxwell.  Didn't have to do that.  And MacTusk never hunted players down in their camps; he's always been an opt-in fight, or at most an opt-out gauntlet.  And then there's treeguards.  We all learned to pacify them with acorns before we learned to deliberately hunt them for living logs, right?  And then there's unlocking Wes...

2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

So, what the hell is this game then? What the hell is it supposed to be now?! A social sandbox like club penguin? I really hate the fact that people who think the game should be more like that, just came in and threw the initial idea out the window. Real thanks guys, real thanks. Now the whole 1800 hours I've spent on the game and the time I've spent on DST section of the forum have been wasted and same goes for some other people. Real thanks.

If it's just a casual social sandbox, why do public servers empty out when winter arrives?  If it's just a casual social sandbox, why are there skeletons littered everywhere?  If it's just a casual social sandbox, why do the monsters have more health and the armor have less protection  (when combined) and less durability?  I think it's the same survival game it always was, plus even more opt-in challenges and useless decorative items than there already were.  Potted ferns were never the pinnacle of utility, after all.  Sure, the game seems easier than the original did at first, but I don't get killed by the same tallbird two days in a row anymore, either.  The game isn't turning casual, we just suck less than we used to.

[Pyr0mrcow]

...by the way, when first starting up the game (ANR Beta shows this since it basically functions as a separate game), the game does actually tell you that you should play a solo game before joining other servers.

[ExtollerOfTrolls]

The herd better have something to do with a future update. I saw someone suggest that the deer could also be for riding.

With different saddles and no carrying large items, of course. Perhaps they would be much faster than the beefalo and more for kiting bosses? Or a sleigh. A sleigh is good too, especially since next update is before Christmas.

And I really want to see those pet behaviours actually implemented.

Devs: "YOU CAN PET A PET. OMG! SUCH A RIVETING EDITION TO THE GAME!" They need to actually have benefits (I have faith in the team, I just don't think that only implementing one thing that does diddly-squat isn't really worthy of being put one the poster.).

Maybe we're just spoiled from all the previous updates that were very exciting.

Psst, make this a thing, please:

Spoiler

 

 

[Lumina]

7 minutes ago, TemporaryMan said:

Sure, the game seems easier than the original did at first, but I don't get killed by the same tallbird two days in a row anymore, either.  The game isn't turning casual, we just suck less than we used to.

I agree, and nothing added make the game more casual. But i guess some people would like to see the game add more and more things trying to kill them since they mastered the old one.

 

But i think it's hard to add things dangerous for veteran without ruining game for new players. Especially since players complaining here how the game is too easy are... here. In forum when right after the update, you have plenty of people explaining news mechanisms, news secrets, news monsters and boss and how to kill them, showing code and stats.

The bigger killer of the game isn't the deerclop, isn't the dragonfly, not even the old toadstool, it's not the hound of the tallbird or eating monster meat because you didn't click on the right item, it's not tentacle you didn't see. It's the unknown.

How do i do charcoal ? Is this monster hostile ? What is this strange bubble in swamp ?

I'm hungry let's eat this strange meat/mushroom. I will go in cave with some meat, oh, there are cute bunny here. A track, i will follow it, i want to find a koalefant.

I will set my base in a pig village ! (Full moon happens some day later)

I will put my beebox near my camp ! (Spring is coming)

I will set my base in the middle of this beefalo herd, this way i'll always have manure (beefalo are in heat).

Part of the problem is people know what to do so don't make mistake like we used to. So the dangers or the update are weakened.

[Mday]

Quote

"everything is out to kill you".

See this is where I don't really get it. Since when the game is ALL ABOUT "everything is out to kill you"?

Lets get to wiki and have an overview on the list of mobs we have in the game:

http://dontstarve.wikia.com/wiki/Mobs

So just by looking at it, I can tell that the hounds, depthworm and the four giants, are the main mobs that are designed to spawn upon player's location and wreck player's base. Any other mobs, be it hostile neutral or friendly, you pretty much always have a choice to avoid fighting them entirely. Even the hounds the depthworms and the giants, you can ditch them somewhere in the wild or de-aggro them in some other way, and that will be it for you if you choose not to fight them. So really I don't know why some of you have this "everything is out to kill you"? concept in your mind. From my point of view, the game has always have a sense of balance in the design, in which rewards are given to players who choose to deal with challenges. And quite frankly the game is actually much harder if you choose to not fight some of the mobs in the game. Avoid killing any spiders alike at all and you limit your access to silk. Avoid killing any pigs and you dont get pig skin. There are challenges and rewards to be explored and you the player get prepared for whatever is out there that may kill you. That is how the game has always been. Sure if you aren't prepared, the cold the heat the hounds and the frog rain may kill you, if you are indeed that new to the game, but that is about it, really.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Mday

[GiddyGuy]

42 minutes ago, ExtollerOfTrolls said:

They need to actually have benefits

Why?...Terraria had pets and only like 2 outta 20 had one benefit and it was light, you don't see people complaining about them now do ya?

 

[1v0]

I too want things to be more challenging and for more hostile creatures (I even hoped for the deers to be hostile)... There are ways to make the game harder without ruining it for new players - I said it on another topic = Add creatures that spawn after 1 year of surviving time like - when a player survives XX-1XX days a new creature/swarm spawns in the world and hunts you . 

But at the same time I understand the need for social content because the game is multiplayer now ... Too bad that for now the new challenges are optional and won't cost your live if you don't deal with them ... oh well ....... The main problem now might be that we get more social content than player-killing content .

Best suggestion I can give is - lets wait for the next 2 updates that are left and (if) what is the information they give us after the updates ... I kinda have a fools hope that at one point things will get worse (hard for players to survive) . The content that we have been getting are too good (playerfriendly) .

Edited November 28, 2016 by 1v0

[Donke60]

8 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

"everything is out to kill you"

Really then DS sucked at this even when I was a noob I dodged every thing treeguards,poison birchnuts,mctusk and all the seasonal bosses if that is DS main concept then those mobs should of chased me down and killed me even now if i'm not prepared to fight something I don't fight it. What kills me most is the unknown or curiosity or not preparing properly like @Lumina said.

8 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

it would meet the goal of what the game was and is supposed to be all about

TO SURVIVE!!!

most people are having issues with it being worth it fighting it does the reward= effort and for most people they don't feel like killing the bosses because it might kill them but they feel like the rewards aren't worth it especially for people who play alone.

8 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

even if you're now a majority, taking away this initial goal path would just be sad and a kick in the balls for us.

Thats what a compromise is for neither side can have it all there way.

 

8 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

you should really suck it up

Get off your moral high horse plz not everything you say or opt for is the solution to the problems the game has.

7 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

Now the whole 1800 hours I've spent on the game and the time I've spent on DST section of the forum have been wasted

That is irrelvent its ok not to like a game that you really wanted to or not like anymore. The hours you spent on the game and on the forums doesn't mean anything This thread is for this update if you continue I ask that you make your own thread or message people I don't care to continue your conversation but it does not belong here.

[Quoth143]

Dumb question but how do you draw on mini-signs? I tried and I keep getting the "This'd be easier if I had the item in front of me," message.

[Mday]

5 minutes ago, Quoth143 said:

Dumb question but how do you draw on mini-signs? I tried and I keep getting the "This'd be easier if I had the item in front of me," message.

place an item right next to a minisign first.

[Quoth143]

1 minute ago, Mday said:

place an item right next to a minisign first.

Thank you.

[EuedeAdodooedoe]

11 hours ago, TemporaryMan said:

Doesn't that happen once you get good at kiting, though?  I got a thousand day world in single-player DS.  Not a single tentacle left in it.  I've wiped out merm villages in Adventure Mode, too.  With Maxwell.  Didn't have to do that.  And MacTusk never hunted players down in their camps; he's always been an opt-in fight, or at most an opt-out gauntlet.  And then there's treeguards.  We all learned to pacify them with acorns before we learned to deliberately hunt them for living logs, right?  And then there's unlocking Wes...

If it's just a casual social sandbox, why do public servers empty out when winter arrives?  If it's just a casual social sandbox, why are there skeletons littered everywhere?  If it's just a casual social sandbox, why do the monsters have more health and the armor have less protection  (when combined) and less durability?  I think it's the same survival game it always was, plus even more opt-in challenges and useless decorative items than there already were.  Potted ferns were never the pinnacle of utility, after all.  Sure, the game seems easier than the original did at first, but I don't get killed by the same tallbird two days in a row anymore, either.  The game isn't turning casual, we just suck less than we used to.

No, I'm talking about the latest content i.e ANR although Dragonfly and Gmoose did become fully fledged raid bosses. Yes, the game was already very much you coming over to things, but it wasn't always the case. McTusk hunts you down if you're close enough, Bearger, Deerclops and hounds arrive at your door step, tree guards hunted you down for chopping down trees (and replanting pinecones to passify them was honestly a creative way of keeping them passive), depth worms went after you in caves, shadows hunt you down when you go insane, tallbirds hunt you down if you steal their egg, tentacles appear from the ground as a surprise you even as a lro have to be wary of... But the latest content with supposedly hostile bosses has been not even aimed to recreate any of this which is a bummer. Why has this been done when the game could very well improve to be more of a "everything is out to kill you" game, one where with good knowledge and memory you may survive and thrive but one where the forces of nature make it extremely hard or perhaps even near impossible to conquer the game by getting MLG (Megabase Legit Going). If their goal is still the former, why do what they have done, because we haven't even been informed about what ANR exactly aims to achieve aside from adding more content and possibly revealing lore.

[AnonymousKoala]

On 27.11.2016 at 10:18 PM, EuedeAdodooedoe said:

1) Good point. Some people have discussed how to balance it better, actually... can't remember the thread, but the mechanics, as the discussion went along were very well thought out later on; like, when a boss spawns in, the health would be determined by the amount of people nearby, but, it would also determine how much loot the boss drops, so the more health it has (which comes from the result of more player being there), the more loot gets dropped upon its death, which might not make a whole lot of sense (unless perhaps the boss' scale also changes based on that or something, like you have the three levels for the shadow pieces, just a different mechanic though), but would be very good in terms of balance and reward, without needing to have any cheese strats put at play  (like, exiting game before the boss spawns, leaving one player in, then everybody else joining in to beat the boss with less hp for the same loot).

2) That really is weird. I've never had that kind of experience at least, not sure about others here, but I've never seen anyone else who's pro be like that. I've known some pros who like to rush things and then barely or not even getting there in terms of defense of beating a boss, but not anything like what you have described with your experience. If more content is oriented at being the way it currently is, then it'll be harder and better for you. If more content is oriented around being consequential or things attacking you just because, this would make things better for people like me AND for people like you, just possibly not in the same way. And it would meet the goal of what the game was and is supposed to be all about, which is "everything is out to kill you". I really don't like the fact that people who want the game to be more of a club-penguin thing pushing or being the result of the game being made with more optional things. That isn't what the game is supposed to have and it's a kick in the balls if the goal is just suddenly announced by klei or simply deviated without care towards something completely different. Changing the game's goal is something you don't do in the middle/near the end of its development, because that's some really infuriating ****, if you ask me.

I really don't want to say this like this, but for the sake of game's initial purpose, the game's design needs to change to be more "everything is out to kill you" and not "you're out to kill everything if you want to" and you should really suck it up or have mods on that make it easier/different so long as the initial purpose has fans that are supportive of it. I'm sorry, but I don't know how else to summarize this. The game's initial design ideals should take priority in comparison to all the cute and fuzzy and decorative stuff along side with optional things to do, considering there are still people who are very much supportive of the initial goal. I, OgreCakes, Mobbstar, Ecu to my knowledge and possibly plenty other people are still supportive of the initial idea and you, even if you're now a majority, taking away this initial goal path would just be sad and a kick in the balls for us.

1) I happen to be said "some people", btw.

2) Here's the thing. Things coming for you don't become hard because they come for you. The giants are nothing for veterans/exprienced players because they have no lasting threat. Once you got their pattern and know what to do if they come in a bad time, you're golden.

as @SuperPsiPower once mentioned on the forums and on discord, original Toadstool was a good endgame goal. A tanky boss with all these difficult but cool mechanics(i'd like to add that his drops being great decor is also a good thing, as lategame is all about decors, and their utility is great) and the timer, forces you to still have a challange once you know what to do against him. Sure, it needed some tweaking possibly, but it was a good lategame goal. For long lasting good looking lights, beat the tough endgame boss. 

The issue with the ANR updates is that the promises kept talking about lategame, but here we are, 5/6(depends on if you consider beta or main branches) updates later, and not much has come out of that. The shadow pieces are unfinished, the Toadstool was nerfed to a point where it's not really an endgame thing, just a tougher giant, the dfly is a joke, the og giants are still not much of a challange(i don't know if i feel like they should be tbh, i'd rather getting actually new stuff), and bee queen is an annoyance with not enough players and with enough players is basically Dfly but less rewarding. We have a handful of new mildly useful things, and a handful of good looking decorative(most of them have utility, yes, but come on, let's not fool ourselves) things. Ruins can't be regened so once cleared they amount to "go in, use deconstruction staves and construction amulets, make crowns and suits/any other thing if you feel like it, leave". Iridiscent gem, Glommer's Wings, Guardian horn(one houndius is like no houndius), Phlegm, and more are useless/near useless. Willow is trash, and last I can think of now, disease still has no purpose to exist and feels tacked on/plain stupid. 

I like what the game is trying to be, a sandbox with multiple things to do that ends up as fighting bosses and building big pretty bases. The issue is that it does't understand what it tries to be and whenever it gets told that it's doing it badly(mind you, from the wrong people sometimes), it decides to drop it completely rather than tweak it.

We want that in lategame(probably, as to not screw noobs over too much), everything will be renewable. We want challanges, from tough bosses to fight that don't amount to tanking or kiting to taking care of new threats in different forms(for the love of god not like Disease though. Disease is a horrible example of a "threat"). We want good rewards for endgame too however. The shadow pieces dropping unique weps and armor for lategame is wonderful, and I want to see THAT, alongside with something to make the fight more interesting.

 

On 27.11.2016 at 11:26 PM, Zeklo said:

I understand that. It was the initial goal. So I feel this doesn't still stand, since as you've stated it's deviated from that. 

Hence why I said it's changing.

As for the whole "everything is out to kill you" and towards "you are out to kill everything if you want to". I can see where you're coming from, I personally prefer the DSs dragonfly to DSTs, but it also just felt like a deerclops copy. End of season = boss comes to base. At a certain point it gets over saturated as an idea.

That goes for raidbosses in DST too. At first it was a new fresh idea but it's the new thing now.

There's only so much you can do with "everything is out to kill you" before that theme becomes bland. That goes for everything though.

I can't agree any more, my fishy friend.

Edited November 29, 2016 by AnonymousKoala
"full ourselves"

[Mday]

I don't really know what you guys have in mind for the term "late game", so I will just speak for myself.

For me, late game means "chilling by the campfire, got nothing else to do".

1) Kill the giants and raid boss, done.

2) Build base, farms and automatized production, done.

3) Stock up piles and piles of resource, done.

If there aren't anything else to do, I start a new save. Why? Because chilling by the campfire is boring.

So from my point of view, any new stuff added to the game that are actually meaningful, that can delay the arrival of late game phase, is all that I needed. So far, pretty much everything they have added to the game during the ANG update has meet the requirement, except the No-Eyed deer. That thing is totally irrelevant to my gameplay as there is no reason at all for me to go after them. Toad, yea it is a good activity and I will do it again and again for as long as I am still missing afew blueprint. Mushroom planter, I don't find it very useful for the cost but I will make a few of those in my base. Bee queen, sure the hat is nice and it is pretty much the only renewable source of honeycomb so I will kill it as often as I can, get the comb and ditch the royal jelly.

[Sinister_Fang]

4 hours ago, Mday said:

except the No-Eyed deer. That thing is totally irrelevant to my gameplay as there is no reason at all for me to go after them.

There's no reason to go after them for right now at least. Have you not seen the images of the gems jabbed into their faces already?

 

 

 

[Mday]

5 hours ago, Sinister_Fang said:

There's no reason to go after them for right now at least. Have you not seen the images of the gems jabbed into their faces already?

I have. It is hard to say if the dev will eventually put that assets into use thou. There were many example in the past that assets found in game files were left aside and never touch again.

[Sinister_Fang]

45 minutes ago, Mday said:

I have. It is hard to say if the dev will eventually put that assets into use thou. There were many example in the past that assets found in game files were left aside and never touch again.

And this is still a beta. A lot of things started as only being partly implemented. I'm fairly sure we'll be seeing more with the deer.