[CONTENT WARNING] I hope Klei can explain what is“Our Chinese community are largely supportive”

[Zeklo]

Definitely unfortunate that a statement trying to say "here are some toxic threads, but the posters are not representative of the entire communities" got absolutely warped (both intentionally and accidentally).

I think it's important to look at the meaning and apply it to this thread too. Like all online communities, there are going to be plenty of 'toxic' or angry voices, but that is just a small vocal piece and we should avoid generalizations.

Ultimately we all are just a bunch of gamers who wanna enjoy a funni game about not starving. I earnestly hope things get cleared up, and it's something the community as a whole can get past.

[Paxtonnnn]

53 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

I earnestly hope things get cleared up

They keep making posts trying to clear things up, people just don't feel like listening. He already explained that they saw the complaint about the skin as an opportunity to turn that particular skin into something better, but people are still gonna go "but what about THIS skin?????????????"

[Popian]

I did have a look and the reception was similar to what we got here with some liking it, some not liking it, referencing religious context, etc.

I also happened to see a person who was most likely Ardyn bragging about being banned. Consciously crossing the line, threatening boycott, encouraging defamation. The lengths being gone to snuff Klei out shows no interest in the game (and by extension its players) and suggests a selfish motive. It is hard to tell who is part of the circle of friends and who may be alts that are trying to push the narrative, but it is possible to guess as some points are being made verbatim.

I sincerely hope you can resolve what underlying issue you have, if any.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, Popian said:

I did have a look and the reception was similar to what we got here with some liking it, some not liking it, referencing religious context, etc.

I also happened to see a person who was most likely Ardyn bragging about being banned. Consciously crossing the line, threatening boycott, encouraging defamation. The lengths being gone to snuff Klei out shows no interest in the game (and by extension its players) and suggests a selfish motive. It is hard to tell who is part of the circle of friends and who may be alts that are trying to push the narrative, but it is possible to guess as some points are being made verbatim.

I sincerely hope you can resolve what underlying issue you have, if any.

do you know if arydn is 亚丹Ardent on bilibili

[BoysenSyrup]

okay

[Popian]

13 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

do you know if arydn is 亚丹Ardent on bilibili

I do not, do you?

[JoeW]

Please keep posts on topic and polite. Do not point out or attack any other individual.

Thanks 

[goatt]

2 hours ago, liuyuncangye said:

事到如今何必自欺欺人，keil就是因为宗教原因修改的皮肤。

6月16日这位“朋友是犹太人”的人发了感觉被六芒星皮肤冒犯的帖子，并且给出了更改建议。

6月25日keil就对皮肤进行了修改，并且采取了“朋友是犹太人”的人的建议。

我不相信世界上有这么巧的事情，这次修改就是“安慰或者迁就什么人”，为了安慰一个可能根本不存在的“犹太人朋友”。

你是追求事实呢，还是追求自己才信的故事？

我的态度是，如果你说的对，我就认同你，如果你说的有矛盾的地方，我就指出这个矛盾。我不被情绪控制，只是冷静的观察和分析。

 

矛盾的有几个。如果他们想要迁就宗教人士，为什么有时候迁就，有时候不迁就？为什么不重要的微不足道的地方迁就，重要的地方就不迁就?为什么他们可以理直气壮的说自己不迁就宗教？明确表示不会迁就宗教人士本身，不就和迁就宗教的矛盾了？如果前面改设计是为了安慰宗教人士，那么现在公开表示不是这样的，前面的安慰不就白安慰了？难道Klei是笨蛋公司，前后在这么微小的事情上自相矛盾？

 

动机是什么？我找不到合理的动机。

 

在没有人受到伤害的情况下，他们为什么要改设计？为什么只因为一个小帖子而改设计？我觉得这是因为这个小帖子指出的是他们的设计流程中遗漏的步骤，就像代码bug一样，这就是视觉设计上的bug，需要修复。换句话说，他们并不是因为那个帖子而修改设计，而是因为意识到自己的疏忽而去修改。

 

这种解释更加合乎情理，而且他们自己也是这么解释的。他们的出发点根本不是宗教。这顿操作就是设计流程规范。

 

这次设计改动是不是因为那个帖子，是的。是不是因为跟六芒星像，是的。是不是为了迁就宗教人士？是的呀！

 

谁在迁就宗教人士，Klei吗？肯定不是啊，他们其它时候不迁就，就这时候迁就？当然不合理。

那是谁？是设计流程啊。为什么要采用这样一个设计流程?因为这个规范是在多宗教共存的环境下诞生的，是迁就所以各方宗教的产物。但它迁就了所有的宗教，也就对所有宗教平等了，也就没有迁就了。

 

反过来讲，如果Klei不采用这样的设计流程，反而会对某些宗教不公平，反而会产生迁就。

 

在Klei和宗教人士之间是设计规范，并没有直接的伤害。车辆在人行道上让人，不是为了迁就人，而是规范，规范能增加效率和减少摩擦，避免某方受到伤害。

 

在西方，不同宗教的人要一起生活一起工作，为了避免摩擦，就会产生一些互相迁就的规则。比如社交场合一般不谈论个人的宗教，一般不评论其它宗教以及他们的活动，一般不损毁其它宗教的词汇和标志。在这个设计规范里，避免宗教相关的标志也是历史的产物。

 

这个流程规范在尊重犹太教，它的潜台词是，它不仅迁就犹太教，还要迁就基督教，印度教，佛教，伊斯兰教等等。

但同时，它也会尊重中国人。如果今天上面出现时五星，它也会把这个当作是一个设计失误。这才是公平，这才是不迁就。虽然五星事件没有发生，但是你知道Klei会迁就你，这才是公平。

 

这次修改和宗教有关系吗？有。

有直接关系吗？没有。没有受害人。只是根据行内规范修改一下。

这算是迁就吗？从西方的大环境的角度上说，没有迁就。在中国玩家眼里，算是迁就，因为在中国宗教自由被严重限制，法律本身就是迁就无宗教人士的。你本身就是被迁就的一方。现在让你下来和其它宗教平等，互相迁就，反而感觉是在迁就其它宗教了。在多宗教共存的环境下，互相迁才是公平。

 

这就是政治文化上的差异所产生的误解。

[NOOOBU]

28 minutes ago, goatt said:

你是追求事实呢，还是追求自己才信的故事？

所以解释一下为什么Klei的第二版设计和那个犹太玩家提供的设计稿几乎是如出一辙。

So can you explain why the second version of Klei's helm design is almost identical to the one provided by the Jewish?

[goatt]

5 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

所以解释一下为什么Klei的第二版设计和那个犹太玩家提供的设计稿几乎是如出一辙。

有好的设计干嘛不用呢？

[NOOOBU]

12 minutes ago, goatt said:

有好的设计干嘛不用呢？

可是这显然不是一个好的设计，因为外观上的雷同导致相当多玩家一边倒的认为“这就是Klei顺从了那个犹太人的证据”，从而被抓把柄。

这种风险难道不正是一开始你提过的要规避的敏感点么？

However, this is obviously not a good design, because the appearance of the same led to a lot of players to believe that "this is proof that Klei is obedient to the Jew", and thus get caught.

Isn't that the kind of risk you mentioned have to avoid at the beginning?

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, . . . said:

Every company now a days in the west seem to want to force politics and ideologies in whatever they produce it really is annoying.. best move Klei could have made is to just not censor the helmet or give the star-shaped one for free to everybody and then add this new altered one as a new skin. They already have that same star symbol on other artwork.. what are they going to do change those too lol...

And Klei needs to actually listen to what people are saying why the censoring was wrong. Locking threads and pretending they are always in the right is not good they did the same thing with Warbucks said he was boring (Walani is the most boring character in DS lol has less unique traits than Warbucks did yet she was perfectly fine and didn't get removed for being boring for some mysterious reason) and that's why they removed him instead of fixing him but pretty clear they removed him cause they want to be on the politically correct side of stuff like every other western company is doing for years now.

I don’t really know what the deal with Warbucks is, as he seems to be before my arrival on the forums sometime decades back ago.. But I want to point out that political correctness or whatever you want to call it isn’t always used in video gaming & I want to point to one very specific video game to point this out-

Rogue Company developed by Hi-Rez Studios, before the horrible Russia vs Ukraine war broke out Hi-Rez had released a Russian Character named Runway, who was the games Mascot (the old lady selling the sword to Ronan in the games starting animation) Who happens to also be a retired Russian Spy, Runway had a skin Released of her Younger (spy days) self that had an Emote where she snaps her fingers and opens a Weapons Armory while saying the phrase “From Russia With Love.”

I had paid good money for this particular skin (remember this was prior to the terrible war that broke out) and after this happened I was Worried but already willing to accept that her Spy skin would be removed, her emote phrase would be changed, her entire character may get removed, or worse the game would get Delisted due to her literally being a core Mascot of the franchise.

the character, skin & quote still exist within the game to this very day- and while some people may see the character, Skin & phrase as Distasteful due to horrible real world events that happened after the characters release.. Hi-Rez refused to budge on changing it.

Which is why I personally found it confusing why Klei would be so quick as to remove one particular skin someone may or may not have found offense within. It’s even more confusing to me that Klei didn’t just offer a way to “Clean Sweep” the skin so players could choose between the original design, and the edited version.

But it’s not up to me to decide rather Klei is in the right or wrong on this choice, I’m merely wanting to show my point of view.

Also PS- How dare anyone accuse Walani of being Boring!  <\3

[ieeecim]

38 minutes ago, goatt said:

你是追求事实呢，还是追求自己才信的故事？

我的态度是，如果你说的对，我就认同你，如果你说的有矛盾的地方，我就指出这个矛盾。我不被情绪控制，只是冷静的观察和分析。

 

矛盾的有几个。如果他们想要迁就宗教人士，为什么有时候迁就，有时候不迁就？为什么不重要的微不足道的地方迁就，重要的地方就不迁就?为什么他们可以理直气壮的说自己不迁就宗教？明确表示不会迁就宗教人士本身，不就和迁就宗教的矛盾了？如果前面改设计是为了安慰宗教人士，那么现在公开表示不是这样的，前面的安慰不就白安慰了？难道Klei是笨蛋公司，前后在这么微小的事情上自相矛盾？

 

动机是什么？我找不到合理的动机。

 

在没有人受到伤害的情况下，他们为什么要改设计？为什么只因为一个小帖子而改设计？我觉得这是因为这个小帖子指出的是他们的设计流程中遗漏的步骤，就像代码bug一样，这就是视觉设计上的bug，需要修复。换句话说，他们并不是因为那个帖子而修改设计，而是因为意识到自己的疏忽而去修改。

 

这种解释更加合乎情理，而且他们自己也是这么解释的。他们的出发点根本不是宗教。这顿操作就是设计流程规范。

 

这次设计改动是不是因为那个帖子，是的。是不是因为跟六芒星像，是的。是不是为了迁就宗教人士？是的呀！

 

谁在迁就宗教人士，Klei吗？肯定不是啊，他们其它时候不迁就，就这时候迁就？当然不合理。

那是谁？是设计流程啊。为什么要采用这样一个设计流程?因为这个规范是在多宗教共存的环境下诞生的，是迁就所以各方宗教的产物。但它迁就了所有的宗教，也就对所有宗教平等了，也就没有迁就了。

 

反过来讲，如果Klei不采用这样的设计流程，反而会对某些宗教不公平，反而会产生迁就。

 

在Klei和宗教人士之间是设计规范，并没有直接的伤害。车辆在人行道上让人，不是为了迁就人，而是规范，规范能增加效率和减少摩擦，避免某方受到伤害。

 

在西方，不同宗教的人要一起生活一起工作，为了避免摩擦，就会产生一些互相迁就的规则。比如社交场合一般不谈论个人的宗教，一般不评论其它宗教以及他们的活动，一般不损毁其它宗教的词汇和标志。在这个设计规范里，避免宗教相关的标志也是历史的产物。

 

这个流程规范在尊重犹太教，它的潜台词是，它不仅迁就犹太教，还要迁就基督教，印度教，佛教，伊斯兰教等等。

但同时，它也会尊重中国人。如果今天上面出现时五星，它也会把这个当作是一个设计失误。这才是公平，这才是不迁就。虽然五星事件没有发生，但是你知道Klei会迁就你，这才是公平。

 

这次修改和宗教有关系吗？有。

有直接关系吗？没有。没有受害人。只是根据行内规范修改一下。

这算是迁就吗？从西方的大环境的角度上说，没有迁就。在中国玩家眼里，算是迁就，因为在中国宗教自由被严重限制，法律本身就是迁就无宗教人士的。你本身就是被迁就的一方。现在让你下来和其它宗教平等，互相迁就，反而感觉是在迁就其它宗教了。在多宗教共存的环境下，互相迁才是公平。

 

这就是政治文化上的差异所产生的误解。

 

几个客观事实：

一.犹太人提出意见并给出了草稿

二.1.在犹太人提出意见后klei修改了设计、修改方向和犹太人的意见相同

2.女武神新设计与犹太人提出的草稿相同

 

“你是追求事实呢，还是追求自己才信的故事？”

这句话也送给你

 

[goatt]

10 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

可是这显然不是一个好的设计，因为外观上的雷同导致相当多玩家一边倒的认为“这就是Klei顺从了那个犹太人的证据”，从而被抓把柄。

这种风险难道不正是一开始你提过的要规避的敏感点么？

如果我说：“你头上有个脏东西，你把它拿下来。”然后你照做了。你是顺从了我，还是顺从你自己？

如果我(我不是你老板，只是一个路人)说：“你这个设计有不合规范的地方，你改一下。”然后你检查确认后照做了。你是顺从了我，还是顺从了自己的设计原则？

 

Klei确实是按照那个帖子的提议做的，而且很多人都认为应该那么做。这种广泛的认同并不是顺从那个帖子而产生的，而是普遍存在的观点或者潜规则。那个帖子起到的作用只是指出错误点醒所有人而已。

 

我不太清楚你说的敏感点具体指哪个？

[NOOOBU]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

如果我说：“你头上有个脏东西，你把它拿下来。”然后你照做了。你是顺从了我，还是顺从你自己？

你给的场景是yes or no, 也就是只有“拿”或“不拿”两种选择，但是艺术创作显然不是这么简单的问题。实际上借用你的比喻实际上就是：”这里有我的现成设计稿，请问你是用还是不用？“

3 minutes ago, goatt said:

如果我(我不是你老板，只是一个路人)说：“你这个设计有不合规范的地方，你改一下。”

但是你仅仅只给我提出了问题，并没有告知我具体如何去做，那请问为什么我们的设计稿会如此雷同呢？而且这并不是一个烂大街的几何元素。

当然”这两个图案到底像不像“是一个很主观的问题，如果你一口咬定觉得”他们就是不一样，klei就是完全靠自己的小脑瓜设计出来的“，那我也无话可说。

主观的想法本身是无法量化的，但是和你有多少一样主观想法的人这一点是可以量化的。你当然完全可以坚信你所看到的，只不过有多少人支持你就不好说了。

言止于此，道不同不相为谋。

[YouKnowWho]

54 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Rogue Company developed by Hi-Rez Studios, before the horrible Russia vs Ukraine war broke out Hi-Rez had released a Russian Character named Runway, who was the games Mascot (the old lady selling the sword to Ronan in the games starting animation) Who happens to also be a retired Russian Spy, Runway had a skin Released of her Younger (spy days) self that had an Emote where she snaps her fingers and opens a Weapons Armory while saying the phrase “From Russia With Love.”

I had paid good money for this particular skin (remember this was prior to the terrible war that broke out) and after this happened I was Worried but already willing to accept that her Spy skin would be removed, her emote phrase would be changed, her entire character may get removed, or worse the game would get Delisted due to her literally being a core Mascot of the franchise.

the character, skin & quote still exist within the game to this very day- and while some people may see the character, Skin & phrase as Distasteful due to horrible real world events that happened after the characters release.. Hi-Rez refused to budge on changing it.

"From Russia with Love" is a reference to James Bond. I don't get what point you're trying to make here.

[kurosolo]

Most of the time the community could be supportive, by default.

However, "supportive by default" does NOT have the same meaning as "largely supportive". And now the skin topic becomes controversial in Chinese community, which shows quite the opposite to supportive.

UPDATE: meme added

[goatt]

51 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

但是艺术创作显然不是这么简单的问题

颜色的选择，其它的部件，以及总体的风格部分的创作全都已经定下了并且发表出来了，只是为了修改一下不合适的部分而已。这次的艺术创作的空间本来就不大。再说，我只是说这样顺从那个帖子算是合理，他们具体的创作过程，我只是玩家，又怎么知道。

56 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

设计稿会如此雷同

雷同啊，很像啊，我说了是的啊，没说不像啊。根本就是差不多嘛。理由也很充分啊。理由点击这里。这本来就是月神方的饰品嘛。又不是创新设计。只是告诉Klei沿用Klei自己以前的设计而已。

58 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

言止于此，道不同不相为谋。

别啊，道理越说越明。我又没有强词夺理。不过你想退出我也不拦你。

1 hour ago, ieeecim said:

几个客观事实：

一.犹太人提出意见并给出了草稿

二.1.在犹太人提出意见后klei修改了设计、修改方向和犹太人的意见相同

2.女武神新设计与犹太人提出的草稿相同

你和 @NOOOBU 的说法差不多，我就不重复说了。请看我的本次回帖的上半部分。

[NOOOBU]

3 minutes ago, goatt said:

我只是玩家，又怎么知道

所以你也知道你只是一个玩家，那你前面高高在上站在Klei立场试图解释设计思路的长篇大论是否为一种自我前后矛盾呢？

4 minutes ago, goatt said:

别啊，道理越说越明。我又没有强词夺理。

一对一的辩论如果陷入狡辩是无法更加有进展的，如果你一直车轱辘话那就我们二人的辩论永远无法有定论。就两个设计元素对比一事你完全可以让更多人参与进来判断。一个人的主观感受或许可以忽视，但是一群人相同的主观感受就不是如此了。请。

Klei确实可以，或者说一开始就应该咬定是自己的艺术设计，绝口不提任何可能雷同造成困惑的同类设计。

同理玩家们在看到两个图案的对比以后也完全可以有自己的判断：到底是不是直接从犹太玩家那边拿的现成稿呢？每个人自己心里都有数。

Klei或者你怎么主张是你们的事，广大玩家群体怎么相信是他们的事。就像现在JoeW的道他的歉用不用心是一回事，玩家买不买单是另一回事。

[Maxposting]

6 hours ago, . . . said:

every other western company is doing for years now.

I'd like to ask for examples, since this just sounds like a dog whistle, you can send them in DMs if you want.

[goatt]

31 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

那你前面高高在上站在Klei立场试图解释设计思路的长篇大论是否为一种自我前后矛盾呢？

我没有高高在上。我的语气相当中立，虽然观点有偏向。但这些就能让你感到我的高高在上了。我只能表示不能理解。

我说“我是玩家，我怎么知道”，特指的是他们最终方案的具体过程，因为我没有参与其中。

而我知道的、我指出的、你也能看见的是，这个最后设计并没有太大的创作空间，而且他们最后采用的也是他们自己的作品。

34 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

一对一的辩论如果陷入狡辩是无法更加有进展的

我希望你能就事论事，拿具体的事情跟我讨论。如果只是宽泛地指责我“狡辩”，这样的讨论就没有多大意义了。我没有跟你辩论，我只是把你没有看到的东西用一种你没有看到的角度串起来，并且告诉你这是误解的来源。这些东西在西方比较普遍，在中国玩家眼里就比较难以理解。如果你们真的获得了认同，为什么这个社区里的其他玩家给你们的声援这么少？更多的只是同情和理解或者厌烦。

 

38 minutes ago, NOOOBU said:

如果你一直车轱辘话那就我们二人的辩论永远无法有定论

我的言论一直非常直接，没有弯弯绕绕。你要是觉得我说的对，可以直接承认。我从一开始就说了，你要是说的对，我就会承认。虽然我没有要求你做到一样，但你的指责对我而言无从说起。你看，因为你的原因，我们的讨论已经开始偏离主题本身，而转到人身攻击和人身防卫上来了。我觉得这样的讨论没有什么意思。我以后不会再回应你的此类发言。

 

1 hour ago, NOOOBU said:

同理玩家们在看到两个图案的对比以后也完全可以有自己的判断：到底是不是直接从犹太玩家那边拿的现成稿呢？每个人自己心里都有数。

不用说得这么含糊。这些设计在网上有明确得时间记录的。比如月神的月亮就在很久以前“return of them”动画短片里出现过的，所以不用“自己心里都有数”，明摆着事实在那里。

 

1 hour ago, NOOOBU said:

Klei或者你怎么主张是你们的事，广大玩家群体怎么相信是他们的事。就像现在JoeW的道他的歉用不用心是一回事，玩家买不买单是另一回事。

我只是把事实放在一起列给你看，并且解释东西方文化和大环境的差异。知错就改。Klei错了，它在改。你要是误解了东西方的文化差异，也请做出相应的态度。在我看来，Klei的做法只是一个不能再常规的常规操作，而现在他们已经道歉并且接受退款。我不知道你们是不是抱团的，但是这样刷帖对于解决问题没有什么帮助，还会弄坏中国玩家在这个社区里的形象。

[tangz36]

If the skin makes a change before selling, I will not have any opinions, but the facts are the opposite. Klei tried to make an answer, but the problem was still not resolved.Most of the players are disappointed.I think the skin should change back to the original look, or just a little adjustment.
 

[cropo]

I don't really think there's any good solution here.  If the change WAS because of ''omg offensive'' and they're trying to obfuscate that behind plausible reasons then nothing you say will matter, any sort of discontent with the change will just have people retaliate by calling you a bigot, or acting as if your intentions are anything other than simply being sick of the trend, you literally cannot challenge the power people have over you in this situation.

If the change WASN'T because of ''omg offensive'' and they really had a genuine change in design, to the point that they would literally go and change the look of a skin that people already paid for, at the very last minute, for some reason, then they would be in the right and backing down would actually be the worst possible outcome for them in this situation.

 

You can't win either way. My belief is that Klei indeed did change the skin for potential sensitivity issues, because they have a track record of changing things of this nature. Throughout their development of the game they have released, and removed, multiple things they already went through the trouble to make assets for and design because they later found it to be too dark or problematic, like cannibalism, lunar zombification, Warbucks(I know they try to say it was because he was a boring character, I really don't buy that).

 

I don't think someone raised their hand and said ''it's offensive, please change it'' and Klei was like ''okay seems fair''.  I think it's more that they made the design and released it, then they thought to themselves ''wait...should we really release this? It might be insensitive...'' and then they changed it. It fits with their previous behavior of changing things after they went through the trouble of making it.

 

I think the solution to this would be to change their policy on this specific skin item, so that players can mod it back to its original shape. the same way people can mod Warbucks back into the game. I'm pretty sure their policy doesn't allow you to mod skins for their original characters, but if an exception could be made to this one item I think people would calm down, and if they didn't they would have less fuel to continue on because they'd lave less legitimate grounds for complaining.

[yonghu0217]

苯教；卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐卐

[NOOOBU]

Maybe I need to tell @JoeW the reason why the Chinese is still angry about it (although you have explain it already) could be the attitude you deal with the disscusion in forum because of Tencent join Klei in 2021.

Massive offensive speech and memes were published here, and some of them is still here.Some CN can still find these which make them mad, but can not find their own post. They feel it is unfair to them.

 

Spoiler

 

Personally I do not care about these like Xinnie but, something in China is sensitive you know————Just like David's Star's meaning for Jews, and Every nation have their own taboo.

No matter how absurd you feel, it is a fact.(And I am helpless about these).

What you have done in their view is Double standard, in Chinese we call it "双标"（you can ask for Lin or Jeddy what is this mean), so that is why the Chinese saw what you explain but still feel no sincerely: JoeW treat us differently than he treat others.

Actually I do not want to say something like these here becuase its so sensitive too, but I have to let you know it so we can solve the problem and misunderstanding.

I did not  post a new thread because that could make more and more people join it, I just want YOU know.

I have no hostility for you, just let you know and solve these as soon  as possible then turn everything to peace agian.