[CONTENT WARNING] I hope Klei can explain what is“Our Chinese community are largely supportive”

[sakura snow]

5 hours ago, Popian said:

I agree with the CCA's recommendations based on their interpretation of the law.

You have made the following assertions that all of your arguments are based on:

It follows to interpret the laws themselves to see whether that is the case, which is why you should get a lawyer if it is that important to you.

Are you ignoring what others say?

Is my viewpoint based on this assertion? My opinion is based on the judgment made by the China Consumers Association on the same facts. According to these two laws, it is the China Consumers Association that judges the illegal act.I just quoted the judgment of the China Consumers Association. If you think the China Consumers Association is not professional enough, you can find out what kind of organization it is.

It's strange why you all avoid talking about China Consumers Association?

You agree with the person's statement regarding Chinese law, rather than the Chinese government's statement. Oh, how strange you are.

You only need to answer the following questions:

Are you saying that the Chinese government's interpretation of their prescribed laws is incorrect? Can't the Chinese government's understanding of the law be compared to yours?

If you don't answer this question directly, then there is no basis for discussion.

 

11 hours ago, Dreadle said:

Innocent until proven guilty. At present, everything remains hypothetical without expert opinions. Even in real cases, it is impossible to predict whether the court would mandate companies to either return the in-game item or provide monetary compensation. Moreover, the value of the item in question is too low - less than one dollar, and it is unclear whether the alteration of the item is objectively superior or inferior, making it difficult to determine if they violate the law in the first place.

I really like your words, baby.

In terms of legal issues in China, the Chinese government is not considered an expert, and the opinions given by the Chinese government are not considered expert opinions.

Dear, what kind of expert are you referring to? Surprisingly, it is even more professional in Chinese law than the Chinese government, which formulates Chinese laws. Is that you?

You actually feel that the views provided by the Chinese government are not professional. I'm sorry, I couldn't figure out for a moment whether your foolishness was fake or real. Because this stupidity is too unimaginable.

If you insist on discussing this matter with the "professional" you are referring to, please repeat this sentence:

The Chinese government's judgment on Chinese law is unprofessional. The Chinese government lacks the power and ability to interpret Chinese laws correctly.

There is no basis for discussion before you clearly express your views on 'professionals'.

11 hours ago, Dreadle said:

and it is unclear whether the alteration of the item is objectively superior or inferior, making it difficult to determine if they violate the law in the first place.

This is as funny as a clown.

The quality of changes is not the standard for judging whether it is illegal. The standard for judging whether the game manufacturer has solicited consumer opinions and whether the consumer agrees.

If this is your understanding of Chinese law, then it has to be said that this is a disaster.

[Popian]

3 hours ago, sakura snow said:

It's strange why you all avoid talking about China Consumers Association?

It is not strange if you read what is actually said.

Quote

Question 3: The issue of damage to the right to choose and property rights. Some consumers have reported that online game operators, without their consent, arbitrarily change the sold character images, game props and their functions, special effects, etc. in the name of optimizing and upgrading game products.

"This is something that has been reported as an issue."

Quote

Analysis: Article 9 of the Consumer Rights Protection Law stipulates that "consumers have the right to independently choose goods or services. Consumers have the right to... independently choose the variety of goods or service methods, and independently decide whether to purchase or not to purchase any kind of goods, accept or not to accept any service." Article 10 stipulates that, Consumers have the right to fair trading. When purchasing goods or receiving services, consumers have the right to obtain fair trading conditions such as quality assurance, reasonable prices, and accurate measurements, and have the right to refuse forced trading by operators. Article 127 of the General Principles of the Civil Law stipulates that "if there are provisions in the law regarding the protection of data and virtual property on the internet, such provisions shall prevail

The online game character images, props and other products purchased by consumers have property attributes and are property rights recognized and protected by the General Principles of Civil Law.

"These are the rights for consumers that may be relevant to said issue."

Quote

Due to the virtual nature of online game products, their possession and use are all within the game, and consumers have limited control over purchased products.

"These are the circumstances in which said issue can arise."

Quote

Online game operators should not use their own advantages to change the actual functions and effects of products purchased by consumers without their consent, in the name of upgrading, optimizing, etc.

"This is a recommendation to avoid said issue from occurring."

Quote

In practice, some online game operators still require consumers to provide general authorization in service agreements through unilateral format clauses, agreeing to the company's adjustments, updates, or optimizations of any content or constituent elements in the game (including but not limited to characters, game equipment, art design, performance, and related data settings that consumers have purchased or are using), and will not hold the company responsible for any legal liability, This practice deprives consumers of their right to choose, fair trade, and claim compensation, and infringes on their legitimate rights and interests.

"This is something to be wary of concerning said issue."

Nowhere in this does it say "violation" or "illegal" or have a prescription of what to do in case of hypothetical scenario.

3 hours ago, sakura snow said:

Are you saying that the Chinese government's interpretation of their prescribed laws is incorrect?

Are you representing yourself as the Chinese government in the same way you represented yourself as the whole Chinese community?

[sakura snow]

20 minutes ago, Popian said:

"This is something that has been reported as an issue."

So you think Klei's modification of the skin this time is not "online game operators changing the sold character images, game props and their functions, special effects, etc. without their consent in the name of optimizing and upgrading game products.

 

29 minutes ago, Popian said:

This is something to be wary of concerning said issue."

Nowhere in this does it say "violation" or "illegal" or have a prescription of what to do in case of hypothetical scenario.

What you said is not illegal is even more ridiculous. Look at the definition of the China Consumers Association: "The right of choice and property rights are damaged". Players' property rights have been infringed upon, and you still deceive yourself: oh, no one says this is illegal.

If you feel that your property rights are not protected by law, then you are right.

 

23 minutes ago, Popian said:

Are you representing yourself as the Chinese government in the same way you represented yourself as the whole Chinese community?

As a national institution established by the State Council of China, the China Consumers Association has the right to represent the opinions of the Chinese government more than anyone in this community.

Let's see what the China Consumers Association said: "It is strictly prohibited to change the products purchased by consumers without their consent, or force consumers to accept upgraded products."

Just right, Klei's skin "art upgrade" this time refers to changing the products that consumers have already purchased without their consent or forcing consumers to accept the upgraded products. And this is prohibited.

 

 

[Popian]

1 minute ago, sakura snow said:

So you think Klei's modification of the skin this time is not "online game operators changing the sold character images, game props and their functions, special effects, etc. without their consent in the name of optimizing and upgrading game products.

I think it is.

2 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

What you said is not illegal is even more ridiculous. Look at the definition of the China Consumers Association: "The right of choice and property rights are damaged". Players' property rights have been infringed upon, and you still deceive yourself: oh, no one says this is illegal.

You were the one who said to look away from the laws, but now you are saying to look at the laws.

5 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

As a national institution established by the State Council of China, the China Consumers Association has the right to represent the opinions of the Chinese government more than anyone in this community.

Are you representing yourself as the China Consumers Association in the same way you represented yourself as the whole Chinese community?

[sakura snow]

1 minute ago, Popian said:

You were the one who said to look away from the laws, but now you are saying to look at the laws.

Hi, brother. When did I say I wanted to abandon the law? Can you stop making up something you imagine?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Popian said:

Are you representing yourself as the China Consumers Association in the same way you represented yourself as the whole Chinese community?

Your logic is very chaotic. When did I represent the China Consumers Association?

"It is strictly prohibited to change the products purchased by consumers without their consent, or force consumers to accept the upgraded products" is the opinion of the China Consumers Association. You can see this sentence in the website I sent.

His Chinese is:严禁未经消费者同意，擅自更改消费者已购产品，或者强制消费者接受升级产品.

I think you can find a friend who knows Chinese to translate this sentence for you.

 

6 minutes ago, Popian said:

I think it is.

You agree with Klei that this action is "the online game operator, without their consent, arbitrarily changing the sold character images, game props and their functions, special effects, etc. in the name of optimizing and upgrading game products.

The attitude of the China Consumers Association to this issue is strictly prohibited. Klei did something that was strictly prohibited by the China Consumers Association.

I really can't understand why you think Klei's approach is correct for such a clear matter.

[Popian]

21 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

Hi, brother. When did I say I wanted to abandon the law? Can you stop making up something you imagine?

19 hours ago, sakura snow said:

You can check the explanation given by the China Consumers Association, an official organization in China.

in response to looking at the laws.

27 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

"It is strictly prohibited to change the products purchased by consumers without their consent, or force consumers to accept the upgraded products" is the opinion of the China Consumers Association. You can see this sentence in the website I sent.

His Chinese is:严禁未经消费者同意，擅自更改消费者已购产品，或者强制消费者接受升级产品.

I think you can find a friend who knows Chinese to translate this sentence for you.

 

You agree with Klei that this action is "the online game operator, without their consent, arbitrarily changing the sold character images, game props and their functions, special effects, etc. in the name of optimizing and upgrading game products.

The attitude of the China Consumers Association to this issue is strictly prohibited. Klei did something that was strictly prohibited by the China Consumers Association.

I'm sorry, I had assumed the excerpt being provided was all that was relevant. It still doesn't say what should be done in the event an item is changed.

Quote

I really can't understand why you think Klei's approach is correct for such a clear matter.

I do not think anything of the approach, I am just superficially curious on what fairness looks like.

[sakura snow]

5 minutes ago, Popian said:

I'm sorry, I had assumed the excerpt being provided was all that was relevant. It still doesn't say what should be done in the event an item is changed.

His meaning is simple: game manufacturers cannot make any form of modification to any paid items in the game without the consent of consumers, regardless of the reason. What he said is that it cannot be modified. Can't you understand this?

 

As shown in the picture, is the paragraph you posted funny?

Can you guess what the explanation given by the China Consumers Association is about?

The answer is the Statutory interpretation of this act. This is the interpretation of Chinese law by official Chinese organizations. You can't find a more professional explanation than this.

 

 

It is strictly prohibited to make unauthorized changes to consumers' purchased products or force consumers to accept upgraded products without their consent.

Is this sentence difficult for you to understand?

Before game manufacturers modify any paid items that have been sold, they need to seek the player's consent. Otherwise, they have no right to make modifications, as this is prohibited by law. So did Klei seek the consent of Chinese players before modifying this skin? Is this problem very complex?

I really don't understand what you're struggling with?

What exactly is your viewpoint? I hope you can express your views clearly and unambiguously, rather than having different opinions every time you answer.

 

[Popian]

20 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

His meaning is simple: game manufacturers cannot make any form of modification to any paid items in the game without the consent of consumers, regardless of the reason. What he said is that it cannot be modified. Can't you understand this?

I understand it. What does it say to do if it is modified?

20 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

It is strictly prohibited to make unauthorized changes to consumers' purchased products or force consumers to accept upgraded products without their consent.

Is this sentence difficult for you to understand?

I understand it. What does it say to do if it is modified?

21 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

Is this problem very complex?

I really don't understand what you're struggling with?

What exactly is your viewpoint? I hope you can express your views clearly and unambiguously, rather than having different opinions every time you answer.

What does it say to do if it is modified?

[sakura snow]

42 minutes ago, Popian said:

I understand it. What does it say to do if it is modified?

I understand it. What does it say to do if it is modified?

What does it say to do if it is modified?

Different punishments will be imposed based on the specific severity of the situation. The same thing can also lead to different results, which is one of the criteria for judges to make judgments.

There is nothing more than a choice between a refund and a callback (player's preference). Then attach an apology to the player and a penalty imposed by the state on the game company.

Of course, if the company wins the lawsuit, there will be no punishment. For example, Klei finds it difficult for Chinese players to sue their overseas companies. Remote distances make law enforcement difficult.

But if Klei harbors the idea that I can brazenly flout Chinese law because it is difficult for Chinese people to use it to restrain me, I am overseas. So this is unfortunate and tragic.

So, regardless of the outcome of the punishment. It does not affect Klei's violation of Chinese laws and infringement of the interests of Chinese players.

 

 

Off topic, if Klei continues to ignore Chinese players like this: even an update announcement will not be released to Chinese players. So things will become interesting, and Klei will once again violate this law when making modifications to Fei props or characters.

Perhaps due to the distance, Klei finds it difficult to receive substantial punishment. But Chinese players' trust in Klei will eventually be worn away.

So, I hope Joew can seriously consider these things. @JoeW

[Popian]

28 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

Different punishments will be imposed based on the specific severity of the situation. The same thing can also lead to different results, which is one of the criteria for judges to make judgments.

There is nothing more than a choice between a refund and a callback (player's preference). Then attach an apology to the player and a penalty imposed by the state on the game company.

Of course, if the company wins the lawsuit, there will be no punishment. For example, Klei finds it difficult for Chinese players to sue their overseas companies. Remote distances make law enforcement difficult.

But if Klei harbors the idea that I can brazenly flout Chinese law because it is difficult for Chinese people to use it to restrain me, I am overseas. So this is unfortunate and tragic.

So, regardless of the outcome of the punishment. It does not affect Klei's violation of Chinese laws and infringement of the interests of Chinese players.

Okay, good talk.

28 minutes ago, sakura snow said:

Off topic, if Klei continues to ignore Chinese players like this: even an update announcement will not be released to Chinese players. So things will become interesting, and Klei will once again violate this law when making modifications to Fei props or characters.

Perhaps due to the distance, Klei finds it difficult to receive substantial punishment. But Chinese players' trust in Klei will eventually be worn away.

Maybe you will have better luck on a business day.

[Desperado27]

1 hour ago, Desperado27 said:

 I don't understand why this thread is being put under "can klei explain what is "Our Chinese community is largely supportive"" thread since this is un relevant and racist. I have not clarified my identity.

 

[Masked Koopa]

How unreasonable to assume your identity after you post screenshots with chinese text from bilibili.

[Popian]

8 hours ago, Desperado27 said:

They changed the skin without telling us players who bought the skin when it looked a whole lot different than before. I would like refund for this since I do not like the skin after the change and they simply did not ask us for the option of changing.

You may request for a refund by following the instructions in this post: https://t.bilibili.com/812140971197202435

Please let us know whether it goes through, as if it gets denied it will look like a violation of your right to refuse forced trading.

[Desperado27]

On 7/5/2023 at 10:21 AM, Masked Koopa said:

How unreasonable to assume your identity after you post screenshots with chinese text from bilibili.

So you can just assume one's identity simply because they posted a photo with foreign text?

[Masked Koopa]

Just now, Desperado27 said:

So you can just assume one's identity simply because they posted a photo with foreign text?

Yeah.

[ieeecim]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:38 AM, goatt said:

颜色的选择，其它的部件，以及总体的风格部分的创作全都已经定下了并且发表出来了，只是为了修改一下不合适的部分而已。这次的艺术创作的空间本来就不大。再说，我只是说这样顺从那个帖子算是合理，他们具体的创作过程，我只是玩家，又怎么知道。

雷同啊，很像啊，我说了是的啊，没说不像啊。根本就是差不多嘛。理由也很充分啊。理由点击这里。这本来就是月神方的饰品嘛。又不是创新设计。只是告诉Klei沿用Klei自己以前的设计而已。

别啊，道理越说越明。我又没有强词夺理。不过你想退出我也不拦你。

你和 @NOOOBU 的说法差不多，我就不重复说了。请看我的本次回帖的上半部分。

我只是把客观事实放在一起列给你看

而你的言论全部基于主观推断

[goatt]

7 hours ago, ieeecim said:

我只是把客观事实放在一起列给你看

而你的言论全部基于主观推断

难道我不是在列客观事实吗？怎么我列的事实变成了“主观推论”了？比如，他们最后采用的难道不是他们自己的设计吗？难道这不是事实吗？

[Lkiia]

Ugh, is it too late to chime in here? 

I am Chinese too but I don't live in China. I've been playing DST but I don't use any forum. I heard about this controversy when it first came out, but didn't bother to look further into it... until today. 

1. I saw a screenshot of the original post, and the new Wigfrid hat skin does look identical to what the person suggested? So the post (and the cause for this whole drama) isn't made up right? 

2. I personally do feel uncomfortable if Klei actually changed the skin due to that. And I would suppose there are other players other than Chinese players that feel the same? And since Chinese people tend to be more opposed to deliberate political correctness (is this the right word, but anyways you get what I'm saying), they have been openly expressing their upsetness on this. It's also because they care about Klei, and don't want any religious/political matter to interfere with Klei's design and style in the future. Some of them came all the way to here with those posts that have been blocked, some are "sarcastic but still complys the community rule" and some are "indeed inappropriate and unfriendly"? 

3. Then JoeW said they don't represent Chinese players, and most of the Chinese players are supportive. He meant these posts don't represent Chinese players' manner, but the wording caused the Chinese players to think he was twisting their words and opinions, saying they are supportive to this specific skin change when they are actually strongly opposing to it. And while China has the biggest DST player base, they feel like they were being treated unfairly and being ignored, which got them to be more angry, on top of the deliberate hat skin change? 

Am I understanding everything correctly? 

 

As for Tieba, yes, as a previous comment has mentioned - it has a super toxic environment and has a lot of radicals on there. I personally hate, and look down to a lot of users on there. But at the same time, there are indeed many friendly players on there as well, as Tieba (or to say Baidu) is popular and super easy to set up a forum community for literally anything, so it does represent people's opinion to some extent.