[CONTENT WARNING] I hope Klei can explain what is“Our Chinese community are largely supportive”

[whiteking]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

I sincerely don’t mean to steer up any controversy but.. I don’t understand what the big deal was well rather should I say “Is” since there’s several other skins STILL in the game that bare the 6 sided star symbol (including some for Midsummers Cawnival)

But also I don’t actively study or participate in any given religion so I don’t understand the significance behind what’s so wrong it..

I only have one question, do Chinese people NOT play tiaoqi ??

I mean forgive me, I was born in the late 80’s and growing up, the board game seemed very very popular to me.

My only concern is that other skins baring the same symbol will be edited/removed.

We play it.Many chinese play tiaoqi.

This is exactly what makes me feel very strange. Is this Hexagram very similar to David's star? Maybe, just like humans and chimpanzees. We don't think Klei needs to follow this idea to modify the pattern. If such a pattern needs to be modified, wizards around the world will have to draw circles with sticks in the future

[Dragonboooorn]

10 minutes ago, -Nick- said:

Yeah lets stay on topic and wave Warbucks farwell. Let him have a good retirement.

  Hide contents

 

Dont believe in Klei sweet propaganda. 

Warbucks never retired, nor he was vanished because of Thanos snap. Klei assisinated him and replaced him with  Wormwood.

Never forget what they did to poor old scallywag.

[whiteking]

5 minutes ago, Dragonboooorn said:

Dont believe in Klei sweet propaganda.

Warbucks never retired, nor he was vanished because of Thanos snap. Klei assisinated him and replaced him with Wormwood.

Never forget what they did to poor old scallywag.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……Thanos……lol

[xhyom]

13 minutes ago, whiteking said:

We play it.Many chinese play tiaoqi.

This is exactly what makes me feel very strange. Is this Hexagram very similar to David's star? Maybe, just like humans and chimpanzees. We don't think Klei needs to follow this idea to modify the pattern. If such a pattern needs to be modified, wizards around the world will have to draw circles with sticks in the future

I believe that Klei has already made it clear that they did not change the star because it is a religious symbol, but a symbol that could give different interpretations to a skin that has direct links with the game lore. If the star was a problem it wouldn't exist in other skins, you guys are just looking for a problem to victimize yourself if I can tell you the truth, nobody even really wants the removal of any content that they pretend to find offensive, it's just to put themselves in agenda in this discussion, if the other can do it, I can too, right? But the reality is that no Jew asked for the star to be removed, it's just a misunderstanding.

[whiteking]

5 minutes ago, xhyom said:

I believe that Klei has already made it clear that they did not change the star because it is a religious symbol, but a symbol that could give different interpretations to a skin that has direct links with the game lore. If the star was a problem it wouldn't exist in other skins, you guys are just looking for a problem to victimize yourself if I can tell you the truth, nobody even really wants the removal of any content that they pretend to find offensive, it's just to put themselves in agenda in this discussion, if the other can do it, I can too, right? But the reality is that no Jew asked for the star to be removed, it's just a misunderstanding.

emmmmm……I think someone raised this question, which is the beginning of this matter... But now we seem to have discovered some strange things, which is a speculation. Someone is causing trouble, maybe someone is impersonating Jews and Chinese people to promote this strange thing, so I am calling for some new ways of communication

[Just-guy]

2 hours ago, firoborn said:

I mean CHRISTmas is in the game and nobody has complained about that I don't know how adding or removing religious simbolism changes anything or demonstrates religious bias on kleis side to me it just demonstrates religious bias on some players side if anything 

Winter's Feast does have Christmas elements but they more on the popular festivity (the tree, the gifts, the gingerbread, an evil Santa) rather than the religious one (the Nativity, posadas, lighting the Advent crown) just like every game does on their Winter's events.

[xhyom]

5 minutes ago, whiteking said:

emmmmm……I think someone raised this question, which is the beginning of this matter... But now we seem to have discovered some strange things, which is a speculation. Someone is causing trouble, maybe someone is impersonating Jews and Chinese people to promote this strange thing, so I am calling for some new ways of communication

Thing is, the star is still present on other skins, so that argument that it was removed because some metaphorical Jew asked for it is false, if that were the case, which it isn't, we wouldn't see those stars elsewhere.
It's the same case with Warbucks, NOBODY complained about any problems with the character, but after he was deleted people started to ASSUME some racism or anything else in the character, which doesn't make sense, Warbucks basically didn't even have perks, since his unique items were implemented in the base game as they made more sense and were within the DLC theme. In the end, people just make up a guy, guess what that guy would think, and then get mad at that guy.

[whiteking]

1 minute ago, xhyom said:

Thing is, the star is still present on other skins, so that argument that it was removed because some metaphorical Jew asked for it is false, if that were the case, which it isn't, we wouldn't see those stars elsewhere.
It's the same case with Warbucks, NOBODY complained about any problems with the character, but after he was deleted people started to ASSUME some racism or anything else in the character, which doesn't make sense, Warbucks basically didn't even have perks, since his unique items were implemented in the base game as they made more sense and were within the DLC theme. In the end, people just make up a guy, guess what that guy would think, and then get mad at that guy.

This is exactly what we think is very strange

Why did he only choose only one Wigfrid with so many stars?

This pattern is actually not very similar to the Star of David, but it was inexplicably proposed……

There are also many strange places, claiming to be Chinese but not speaking like Chinese people……

I think it's more like someone who's not Jewish is messing around

So I said, it's time to pause. We need a new way of communication with Klei

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, xhyom said:

Thing is, the star is still present on other skins, so that argument that it was removed because some metaphorical Jew asked for it is false, if that were the case, which it isn't, we wouldn't see those stars elsewhere.
It's the same case with Warbucks, NOBODY complained about any problems with the character, but after he was deleted people started to ASSUME some racism or anything else in the character, which doesn't make sense, Warbucks basically didn't even have perks, since his unique items were implemented in the base game as they made more sense and were within the DLC theme. In the end, people just make up a guy, guess what that guy would think, and then get mad at that guy.

True it's just a show of how strong confirmation bias is if Walter were removed tomorrow there'd be people claiming racism, if Winona was removed tomorrow there'd be people claiming sexism in that Kiel doesn't like strong independant women who do what are thought to be masculine tasks, and the list goes on to a depressing degree and never stops...

[xhyom]

18 minutes ago, whiteking said:

This is exactly what we think is very strange

Why did he only choose only one Wigfrid with so many stars?

This pattern is actually not very similar to the Star of David, but it was inexplicably proposed……

There are also many strange places, claiming to be Chinese but not speaking like Chinese people……

I think it's more like someone who's not Jewish is messing around

So I said, it's time to pause. We need a new way of communication with Klei

As I said, the skin has a direct link to the main lore of the game, the same star is present in some other unrelated to the theme skins, so having the same star could cause wrong interpretations, not religious ones, just like the anniversary skin has the exact same star and is probably tied to Cawnival based on design, so I could say that Cawnival is related to the Alter/Moon, is the Sun an entity too? And so it goes...

 

[whiteking]

6 minutes ago, xhyom said:

As I said, the skin has a direct link to the main lore of the game, the same star is present in some other unrelated to the theme skins, so having the same star could cause wrong interpretations, not religious ones, just like the anniversary skin has the exact same star and is probably tied to Cawnival based on design alone, so I could say that Cawnival is related to the Alter/Moon, is the Sun an entity too? And so it goes...

 

Okay, wait a moment, I want to say a question. Translation software cannot completely solve language problems, and I don't seem to be able to accurately understand what you mean. Perhaps you are also.

We have discovered this problem, and Klei has also discovered it

So this topic should be temporarily stopped, I have repeated it several times.

We are looking for new ways of communication

[Baark0]

thread made 9 hours ago 110 replies

what the hell happened here

[Dragonboooorn]

1 minute ago, Baark0 said:

thread made 9 hours ago 110 replies

what the hell happened here

we live in a society

[lenship2]

this thread once more truly says a lot about our society

 

[whiteking]

16 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

9小时前发的帖子，110个回复

这里到底发生了什么

I will try to explain this very complex matter and add some of my own guesses, which may not be correct

Someone who may be playing pranks said that an ordinary Hexagram was the Star of David, claimed that it offended their religion, and asked Klei to modify it

Klei is not familiar with it, but it may have been modified to take care of the player's emotions

This has sparked dissatisfaction among some players as they feel that there is no connection, and Klei made inexplicable modifications and began to express some opinions

Among them, due to translation issues and issues with Klei's information source (some people may be playing pranks), Chinese players and Klei both said some incorrect words, which may have led to a misunderstanding between Klei and Chinese players, resulting in a 9-hour argument……

[. . .]

Klei definitely should take their Chinese community more seriously and make decisions in the Chinese community is better interest since roughly 75% or more of all people who play and own DST are from China and the rest is scattered among the world.

Definitely agree Klei should strive to communicate better with the Chinese community and let their voices be heard loud and clear.

[zmklol]

8 minutes ago, . . . said:

Klei 绝对应该更加认真地对待他们的华人社区，并在华人社区做出更符合利益的决定，因为大约 75% 或更多的玩和拥有 DST 的人来自中国，其余的则分散在世界各地。

绝对同意Klei应该努力与华人社区更好地沟通，让他们的声音被大声而清晰地听到。

Yes, friends. We just want normal communication and feedback, rather than being blocked just by posting. In recent days, countless Chinese players' posts and replies have been blocked, which makes us feel scared

[Ardcrumb]

I just want to be in the thread when it gets inevitably locked, I believe its not a good idea for developers to comment on these situations but rather a response from the company itself to prevent harassment. 

I just feel sorry for Joe honestly, hope this hasn't soured his opinion of the community

[Pig Princess]

@JoeW, I want to ask some questions about moderation this time,in particular:

- why initial post about Wigfrid's skin was not restored? I mean the one where person claimed to be friend of Jew and asked for skin change, together with hidden replies, including my hidden replies?

- what about restoring hidden replies, even if just to show - from your point of view - examples of unconstructive and hateful ones? Including mine replies where I merely gave examples of star-shaped objects of nature and pointed out that even within human culture symbols are reused constantly and change their meaning drastically to given groups of people;

- why some groups of people are treated more favourably than the others, i.e. why someone saying "it offends my religious feelings" have advantage in treatment than person without religious affiliation who just happen to like original skin? Why my feelings as non-religious person are considered to worth less than feelings of religious person - who didn't even come to forums themselves, by the way?

To people who didn't have a chance to read that thread, the following thing happened.

Spoiler

I replied in the most neutral way there could be, listing examples of star-shaped objects that one may find in nature or unrelated to art and social movement areas (starfish, nanoparticles, etc.), as well as examples of symbols that are used by different groups of people in very different meaning despite being identical or very similar. That post stayed for a while.

I waited to post 2nd part with my opinion, in case it was considered inappropriate and/or I was misunderstood, because I know forums sometimes merge replies of same person. So worst case scenario this one would be deleted, but 1st part of my reply theoretically could stay. There I suggested to person in question (supposed friend of original poster) to read more information about world. I admit that I was angry about situation - but by no means on person themselves - but seems like I was misunderstood. However, when I tried to clear misunderstanding and edit post, it was deleted.

Every subsequent post of was being deleted, despite me just asking about situation, and even my very first reply was deleted, and even me asking about 1st reply deletion. I didn't offend anyone.

As for 2nd post - I presume the one that made me "enemy" in the eyes of moderator - I wrote what I wrote because I genuely think it's best for OP and their friend to learn more and not feel uncomfortable anymore about neutral symbols; in this case it's 6-pointed star, which doesn't even look close to symbol in question unless one specifically seeks it everywhere. I wrote "I recommend" and about world becoming brighter as result because I myself follow my own advice. Every time I learn something about world, every time I break my misconceptions or overcome my own fears/uncomfortableness, it brings me joy of winner, including joy of winning over myself. When I look back into my memories of times when I knew less about world, best comparison I can think of is it's as one's eyes started to slowly restore their sharpness, hence I used words "brighter" and "lighter" (when I wear contact lenses, I indeed feel lighter than without them).

In that reply I was actually going to suggest books to read, but realised that I'm not sure what of those have english edition, so I recommended what I think helps me - good base, which is school programm. I went to confirm what I can recommend, but returned only to learn that all was deleted.

Finally, one can feel some irritation in that 2nd post. However, it was not because I dislike Jews or even feel hate for that particular person (which I'm not sure even exists, to be honest). And I never gave a reason to suspect myself in this. It was directed on situation as a whole and it was clear. I don't think it was a place for elaborate post about why I don't care about people's nationality and my thoughts about feedom of speech/art, thus I didn't write it. Yet people used it to their convenience to blame me for what I didn't meant, and immediately after without much thinking I was repressed.

This whole situation when someone tiptoes around those "dangerous" topics as if in fear of certain groups of people truly irritates me, because in the first place it harms very same people who are claimed to be "protected". If person is suffering because of just looking at 6-pointed star, I genuely think helping them to overcome it would be better than catering to their trouble. It's not a problem with art, it's a problem of perception of particular person, and actual discussion  - with other opinions present, advices and information - is more likely to help than censorship. After all I'm sure nearly everyone would agree that initial design was not meant to offend/make uncomfortable anyone - isn't it the most important thing? If someone is arguing, it doesn't mean they definitely are hostile; speaking of myself, it's one of the ways I show my care and my way to help, although I admit that my wording sometimes lacks and doesn't convey what was indented. I wish people believed in people's good will a little bit more instead or overthinking possible future sparks. If this discussion itself is inappropriate to this particular forums, it would be better for moderators and company to at least not take sides.

As for conclusion, I'm asking to not treat certain groups of people worse than others. I have right to enjoy initial skin, artists have right to go with original - and by no means offensive - design, company has right to not fear "controversy". Although I can't do much if company itself doesn't want to defend common sence, only to write my honest thoughts, even if it changes nothing and gets deleted again.

[00petar00]

2 hours ago, xhyom said:

I believe that Klei has already made it clear that they did not change the star because it is a religious symbol, but a symbol that could give different interpretations to a skin that has direct links with the game lore. If the star was a problem it wouldn't exist in other skins, you guys are just looking for a problem to victimize yourself if I can tell you the truth, nobody even really wants the removal of any content that they pretend to find offensive, it's just to put themselves in agenda in this discussion, if the other can do it, I can too, right? But the reality is that no Jew asked for the star to be removed, it's just a misunderstanding.

It really doesn't matter what the reason behind the change was because as soon as someone made a thread and asked for a change because of a religious reason, it was going to be controversial if they decided to go though with it.

Also players started buying them and changing the skins isn't a good idea once they have been put up for sale.

A lot of people don't agree with changes that happen because of political correctness.

At this point they should revert the skin change as this is a rabbit hole that no one wants to see them go into, so many things in game can symbolize religion and changing all of that would require too much time and cause so many arguments.

[Pig Princess]

17 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

At this point they should revert the skin change

Technically it's actually possible to make sprite look particular way only to particular user. Some client mods change look of spiders into something less-spidery for people with arachnophobia, and only they see those spussy cats and such, so if Klei wanted, they could easily make both sprites coexist.
Still, this precedent in itself is already a problem, they should have stayed neutral and not change it.

Edit: I don't have arachnophobia, but that mod was still fun to use for me because of how silly, but funny and fitting it is. I'm not sure if it's allowed to post external links there though.

[goatt]

I can't find the original post cuz it's deleted but Google gave me a corner of it.

 

这次的设计改动跟宗教没有直接关系。

 

设计有很多功能，其中一项是交流信息。设计中包含的信息有可能带来不必要的误解。所以在设计中会尽量避免这些误解元素。

在已知的设计原则中，避免宗教符号是其中一项。在最原本的设计中，六芒星违反了这项设计原则，导致设计失误，所以需要被修正。

 

但是，有哪个犹太人觉得收到了侮辱Klei的侮辱吗？好像没有啊。这个设计的改动只是遵循已知的设计原则，而不是为了安慰或者迁就什么人。

 

这项设计改动的另外一个原因是因为饥荒的很多标志会被高玩过分解读。任何一个音效设计或者图标设计都有可能会让粉丝产生过分联想。六芒星的设计就有可能导致这种不必要的过分联想。

 

Klei在一开始就将原先发布的原设计当作了设计失误来修正，而不是因为伤害了谁而赔罪，因为根本还没来得及伤害任何人。

抓着Klei的辫子说它向宗教屈服，实际上Klei根本没有向宗教屈服的打算，也没有向宗教屈服的行为。把一个莫须有的罪名按在标准化的设计流程上，就是中国玩家对Klei的误解。我觉得更正确的批评应该是批评这项广泛应用的设计流程上。

 

对于来自这些中国玩家的指责声音，我想说，如果你们想要帮助和声援弱者或者受害者，那么谢谢你们。但是本次事件不存在受害者，"向宗教屈服“是一个莫须有的罪名。但是作为无神论者，编造一些宗教来挑战Klei，这就不是一种解决问题的态度，也不是一种帮助弱者的态度，而只是一种彰显”我对你错“的方式。在游戏里，你可以吃猪肉(触犯穆斯林)，可以谋杀无辜生命比如鸟杀子(触犯佛教)，可以奴役(触犯基督教)，这都触犯了多少宗教教条了，更是从另一方面说明Klei从没有向宗教屈服的行为。这只是西方多种宗教共存环境下所产生的标准化设计流程。

 

当然本次事件中，也有Klei做的不够好的地方。但是一码归一码。判案的时候把相关联而不相干的两个案子分开来判是最基本的原则。

 

沟通时产生的很多问题是因为语言文化差异，也是因为双方无法直接交流。如果用探究事实真相的态度去看这次事件，其实就是一场误会。

比如“Our Chinese community are largely supportive”，原句是 “We're aware of how the community feels. Our Chinese community are largely supportive and awesome.”

译作: 我们知道中国玩家的感受。他们大部分都是很顶的，很棒的。

而不是：。。。他们大部分都支持本次设计改动。

 

误会与误解是本次事件的主因，我希望来自中国的玩家可以意识到这一点。

[. . .]

12 minutes ago, Pig Princess said:

Still, this precedent in itself is already a problem, they should have stayed neutral and not change it.

Every company now a days in the west seem to want to force politics and ideologies in whatever they produce it really is annoying.. best move Klei could have made is to just not censor the helmet or give the star-shaped one for free to everybody and then add this new altered one as a new skin. They already have that same star symbol on other artwork.. what are they going to do change those too lol...

And Klei needs to actually listen to what people are saying why the censoring was wrong. Locking threads and pretending they are always in the right is not good they did the same thing with Warbucks said he was boring (Walani is the most boring character in DS lol has less unique traits than Warbucks did yet she was perfectly fine and didn't get removed for being boring for some mysterious reason) and that's why they removed him instead of fixing him but pretty clear they removed him cause they want to be on the politically correct side of stuff like every other western company is doing for years now.

[liuyuncangye]

36 minutes ago, goatt said:

I can't find the original post cuz it's deleted but Google gave me a corner of it.

 

这次的设计改动跟宗教没有直接关系。

 

设计有很多功能，其中一项是交流信息。设计中包含的信息有可能带来不必要的误解。所以在设计中会尽量避免这些误解元素。

在已知的设计原则中，避免宗教符号是其中一项。在最原本的设计中，六芒星违反了这项设计原则，导致设计失误，所以需要被修正。

 

但是，有哪个犹太人觉得收到了侮辱Klei的侮辱吗？好像没有啊。这个设计的改动只是遵循已知的设计原则，而不是为了安慰或者迁就什么人。

 

这项设计改动的另外一个原因是因为饥荒的很多标志会被高玩过分解读。任何一个音效设计或者图标设计都有可能会让粉丝产生过分联想。六芒星的设计就有可能导致这种不必要的过分联想。

 

Klei在一开始就将原先发布的原设计当作了设计失误来修正，而不是因为伤害了谁而赔罪，因为根本还没来得及伤害任何人。

抓着Klei的辫子说它向宗教屈服，实际上Klei根本没有向宗教屈服的打算，也没有向宗教屈服的行为。把一个莫须有的罪名按在标准化的设计流程上，就是中国玩家对Klei的误解。我觉得更正确的批评应该是批评这项广泛应用的设计流程上。

 

对于来自这些中国玩家的指责声音，我想说，如果你们想要帮助和声援弱者或者受害者，那么谢谢你们。但是本次事件不存在受害者，"向宗教屈服“是一个莫须有的罪名。但是作为无神论者，编造一些宗教来挑战Klei，这就不是一种解决问题的态度，也不是一种帮助弱者的态度，而只是一种彰显”我对你错“的方式。在游戏里，你可以吃猪肉(触犯穆斯林)，可以谋杀无辜生命比如鸟杀子(触犯佛教)，可以奴役(触犯基督教)，这都触犯了多少宗教教条了，更是从另一方面说明Klei从没有向宗教屈服的行为。这只是西方多种宗教共存环境下所产生的标准化设计流程。

 

当然本次事件中，也有Klei做的不够好的地方。但是一码归一码。判案的时候把相关联而不相干的两个案子分开来判是最基本的原则。

 

沟通时产生的很多问题是因为语言文化差异，也是因为双方无法直接交流。如果用探究事实真相的态度去看这次事件，其实就是一场误会。

比如“Our Chinese community are largely supportive”，原句是 “We're aware of how the community feels. Our Chinese community are largely supportive and awesome.”

译作: 我们知道中国玩家的感受。他们大部分都是很顶的，很棒的。

而不是：。。。他们大部分都支持本次设计改动。

 

误会与误解是本次事件的主因，我希望来自中国的玩家可以意识到这一点。

事到如今何必自欺欺人，keil就是因为宗教原因修改的皮肤。

6月16日这位“朋友是犹太人”的人发了感觉被六芒星皮肤冒犯的帖子，并且给出了更改建议。

6月25日keil就对皮肤进行了修改，并且采取了“朋友是犹太人”的人的建议。

我不相信世界上有这么巧的事情，这次修改就是“安慰或者迁就什么人”，为了安慰一个可能根本不存在的“犹太人朋友”。

[Pedro cc]

oh no a star