Does Warly need a touch-up?

[Copyafriend]

6 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wormwood isn't held back by his lack of using healing food so this is false. That's what makes this downside interesting, it's not a hindrance by any means.

Characters not competing with each other isn't grounds for ignoring balance. Balanced can revolve around how characters interact with game content, aka pve. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have buffs and nerfs as we have had so far 

He is held back because every other form is either inferior or more time consuming to obtain (or a raid boss drop which is not guaranteed to go to wormwood in a multiplayer scenario). And i agree. It makes him interesting- i also main wormwood. 
 

and i did not say ignore balance completely. But it shouldn’t be some primary concern. So long as a character does not become 100% a downgrade to its fellow characters then its fine. People will play their favorite, not the best. 

[Mysterious box]

48 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

When you say that every character is a swap character because you can just swap to them to do what they do best, this is what you have to look forward to if you want to play as Warly. I challenge you to find anyone who finds that fun.

You say look forward to but if they only swap to them for a specific thing I'd say atleast half of them could care less just want the perk and be done with it same applies to the ones who only swap for Warly too.

 

55 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

But more to the point, even if there were people who found that fun, how does it harm them or anyone else to make Warly no longer a swap character? The people who want to have fun as Warly but don't because he's a swap character now have fun, the people who enjoyed him before still enjoy him, everyone wins no?

But he's no more a swap character than anyone else if your saying why not give him another perk because your unsatisfied then why not give everyone another perk?

[HowlVoid]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

He is held back because every other form is either inferior or more time consuming to obtain (or a raid boss drop which is not guaranteed to go to wormwood in a multiplayer scenario). And i agree. It makes him interesting- i also main wormwood.

Bat bats can be practically auto farmed.

It's by no means inferior nor time consuming. When paired with 95% protection armor I'd even consider it a side grade (to food) due to being able to deal damage while healing.

Cooking, spam feeding a bird in a cage, and obtaining the necessary veggies for pierogi are more time consuming in comparison. Dragonfly + Klaus require but one bat bat and you profit 2 or more. Bee queen requires but one bat bat and you profit so much more in healing. 

So no, it does not hinder Wormwood in any way. In all of my playthroughs I neglect crock pots entirely (until jelly beans) and it saves me a considerable amount of time as him. It is very comparable to using food, not better, but it holds its own and even has advantages over it.

[maxwell_winters]

I like the idea CatPerson suggested.  Increased chances to get rarer drops (Volt Goat Horns, Butter etc.) from creatures when playing as Warly. He is an accomplished butcher after all, so it would make sense and wouldn't change the character drastically. It doesn't even have to be limited to the cooking ingredients, the things like Walrus Tusk and Beefalo Horn can also be included. 

[Cheggf]

No. Warly is great. If anything were to happen I'd like if he had double duration on food effects (and maybe a chef's specialty spice which is just garlic and pepper combined) since it'd be fun but he doesn't need even that. 

[HowlVoid]

The only thing I would add to Warly is what has been suggested in the past.

Give him (and only him) a larger buff timer from his spices.

Other than that, I'd give him another tool so that he can collect salt from the shore. There was an instrument in The Gorge where you could place a stick and string and connect it to the ocean and it would collect salt over time. He could refresh peoples foods, their hambats, and use the salt spice that usually isn't worth the hassle (comparitively to much easier to access spices).  

I've never bothered with the added mechanics that came with the introduction of salt. It could be a cool additional thematic kit under his arsenal that just saves a bit of time from having to mine salt formations that could be too far to bother with otherwise (sometimes on the other side of the world relative to where camp is).

[Copyafriend]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Bat bats can be practically auto farmed.

It's by no means inferior nor time consuming. When paired with 95% protection armor I'd even consider it a side grade (to food) due to being able to deal damage while healing.

Cooking, spam feeding a bird in a cage, and obtaining the necessary veggies for pierogi are more time consuming in comparison. Dragonfly + Klaus require but one bat bat and you profit 2 or more. Bee queen requires but one bat bat and you profit so much more in healing. 

So no, it does not hinder Wormwood in any way. In all of my playthroughs I neglect crock pots entirely (until jelly beans) and it saves me a considerable amount of time as him. It is very comparable to using food, not better, but it holds its own and even has advantages over it.

Bro, i am not coming for wormwood nor batbats. They’re pretty good. But they do not hold up against food unless you are as experienced as we are. I suppose i havent been explaining my perspective on the matter well enough. But for anyone who is not an expert (and are also likely not active on the forums) wormwoods downside is downright crippling. If you are not used to her, bee queen is one of the hardest bosses. His healing is gated behind either a raid boss (bee queen for jellybeans or gems for dragondly) or slow to apply and comparatively difficult to obtain items. Its really hard if you’re new. Just 1 batbat is a lot to ask if they’re not used to rushing magic. I think he’s in a good place for very skilled players, but he’s arguably as bad as wes for anyone who isnt at that level. So most players.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Copyafriend said:

Bro, i am not coming for wormwood nor batbats. They’re pretty good. But they do not hold up against food unless you are as experienced as we are. I suppose i havent been explaining my perspective on the matter well enough. But for anyone who is not an expert (and are also likely not active on the forums) wormwoods downside is downright crippling. If you are not used to her, bee queen is one of the hardest bosses. His healing is gated behind either a raid boss (bee queen for jellybeans or gems for dragondly) or slow to apply and comparatively difficult to obtain items. Its really hard if you’re new. Just 1 batbat is a lot to ask if they’re not used to rushing magic. I think he’s in a good place for very skilled players, but he’s arguably as bad as wes for anyone who isnt at that level. So most players.

Ok, that makes more sense than he's a crippled character because he can't heal from food.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, Frogzard said:

The second is that characters who aren't Warly cannot eat Chaud-Froid, but they can be force-fed it by Warly.

This is the kind of crap I'm talking about this here is the crap that ruins a character for people who enjoy it imagine enjoying your time playing Warly but gotta deal with people bugging you to come around with them so you can be a buff dispenser for their fights.

[Frogzard]

19 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

horrible, that would only make warly a pain to be played when even if you play only warly you bundle your buffs to use them on demand of how in your bundle food you keep the healing food with garlic spice since is cheap, and adding an exception on how bundle wraps work not only feels weird but has 0 sense. This suggestions make me think that you dont play warly

First of all, I would appreciate it if you could drop the needless hostility from all your comments. I don't know where it's coming from as I've been nothing but respectful and straightforward. If I had to guess, it sounds like you've argued with a lot of people who don't like that Warly is a swap character and want to make changes at the expense of the people who don't care. Which is fair, I would be frustrated too. But I'm not one of those people. If I can't think of a reasonable solution that doesn't come at the expense of other people, I will just accept that I'm in the minority and move on. I would still think it is a design flaw, but I wouldn't advocate for the character to be changed. Does that sound fair?

Second, you raise a good point. I hadn't considered that these changes would also make using buffs cumbersome for the Warly player. Point taken.

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

if klei really think that they need to add a buff for warly so people stop crying about a non existing problem they could simply increase the time of his buffs so will be more efficient to use them on warly and even that would feel weird

I think this is a pretty good idea, but I also think it would only work if they had more effectiveness on Warly rather than lasting longer.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Bro, i am not coming for wormwood nor batbats. They’re pretty good. But they do not hold up against food unless you are as experienced as we are. I suppose i havent been explaining my perspective on the matter well enough. But for anyone who is not an expert (and are also likely not active on the forums) wormwoods downside is downright crippling. If you are not used to her, bee queen is one of the hardest bosses. His healing is gated behind either a raid boss (bee queen for jellybeans or gems for dragondly) or slow to apply and comparatively difficult to obtain items. Its really hard if you’re new. Just 1 batbat is a lot to ask if they’re not used to rushing magic. I think he’s in a good place for very skilled players, but he’s arguably as bad as wes for anyone who isnt at that level. So most players.

Or causal players can use medicine there's so much of a push to use healing foods to point people for get medicine exists and works just fine his speed boost even helps with getting away to heal the honey med heals for 30 and is easy to mass produce. While getting to use all wormwood's upsides at the cheap such as on demand living log access, traps, speed boost, and the game's best armor for horde combat.

[Frogzard]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This is the kind of crap I'm talking about this here is the crap that ruins a character for people who enjoy it imagine enjoying your time playing Warly but gotta deal with people bugging you to come around with them so you can be a buff dispenser for their fights.

Hence why I said the other suggestion is probably better.

[TheKingDedede]

The way I see it, Warly is a pretty fun character as is and wouldn't need too much tweaking. I get why he's considered a swap character, as you can put his seasoning powders onto foods (Namely Powdercakes with seasoning powders on them so you can then switch off of Warly) and then never switch to him again for long term play until he's needed for more Powdercakes. His ability to cook food faster in his Portable Crock Pot, as well as cook foods over a fire faster is much appreciated. Once he's done his part, people just seem switch off of him as they see his downside to remembering the dishes he ate annoying and would rather play someone else.

If I were to suggest something, I'd like it so that Warly can eat other foods, but only when they've been cooked. For example, he can't eat raw Berries, but maybe he could eat them if they've been cooked? However, I would also apply a Wortox-espue penalty to food items cooked over a fire. Maybe one that is a bit more punishing than his single player version, but not by too much. Maybe make it so that when he eats cooked foods, he can only get roughly 65% or 50% of their intended effect? Maybe add a scaling penalty that caps out at 30% for cooked foods if you continue to keep eating such foods, but maybe make it so that he can only remember eating them for a day instead of two days like he does with Crock Pot dishes.

I would also like for him to start off with a Cookbook. Maybe players would be incentivized to unlock all of the recipes for the Cookbook, and in turn it would tie into his ability of being a chef and make it so that people don't have to jump between the game and a wiki page/incredibly informative JPEGs to see what varied meals they could make next. (I like the JPEGs that the community makes, please don't hurt me.)

It would be a small start, but I'd like to see more usage of Warly, as I think a roaming chef in search of ingredients and being able to cook up unique dishes is a great concept, and I would love to see more usage of him on public and private lobbies. If there are other ideas that you like to add to help his longetivity and make it so that he's picked more often, feel free to shoot some ideas out.

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

Hence why I said the other suggestion is probably better.

Which also limits storage options for the food on people who play Warly which is still a indirect nerf to people who already enjoy Warly even if not as much as the other suggestion.

[Echsrick]

4 hours ago, Dextops said:

how????? if you don't like the portal simply don't use it. There is no person behind you yelling you to use the damn portal because warly is a pick and swap character

i allready dont use the portal, but the fact that it exist gives me a reason to complain about something that can in fact be abused, even if its not me, after all, all this talk happend because people started to say things about the pick and swap thingy, meaning me complaining about the moon portal is only a normal thing to do, since thats where it is at its roots

[Frogzard]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

Which also limits storage options for the food on people who play Warly which is still a indirect nerf to people who already enjoy Warly even if not as much as the other suggestion.

As I said to ArubaroBeefalo, I agree with that and hadn't considered it when making the suggestion. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it so Chaud-Froid and maybe spices are more effective when eaten by Warly but I'm not sure exactly by how much. It's a tough line to draw because you want it to be high enough that he's not used as a swap character anymore, but not so high that he's overpowered. What do you think?

[Dextops]

Just now, Echsrick said:

i allready dont use the portal, but the fact that it exist gives me a reason to complain about something that can in fact be abused

then it doesn't effect you in anyway

 

Just now, Echsrick said:

ven if its not me, after all, all this talk happend because people started to say things about the pick and swap thingy, meaning me complaining about the moon portal is only a normal thing to do, since thats where it is at its roots

Then maybe instead of changing the portal change warly so people will no longer feel incentivized to pick and swap him

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, Dextops said:

Then maybe instead of changing the portal change warly so people will no longer feel incentivized to pick and swap him

or maybe we dont change anything since isnt needed

[Zeklo]

I've always seen playing Warly as a slog. I love support characters, but it just feels like I'm shooting myself in the foot. I much rather just character swap to them to make  food, switch back, and get the benefits without the annoyance.

[Mysterious box]

21 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

s I said to ArubaroBeefalo, I agree with that and hadn't considered it when making the suggestion. I'm currently toying with the idea of making it so Chaud-Froid and maybe spices are more effective when eaten by Warly but I'm not sure exactly by how much.

Any buff to the dish wouldn't make sense to me personally like what is he more efficient at using thunder powers granted by a random mob in the constant? Why?

21 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

It's a tough line to draw because you want it to be high enough that he's not used as a swap character anymore, but not so high that he's overpowered. What do you think?

A vocal minority feels this way and honestly I feel like your all going to end up getting the celestial portal removed personally I wouldn't care because despite my years of playing I never felt the need to use it but this entire debate is telling Kiel that they can not introduce a character mechanic without worrying about balancing it around the portal so the easy way out would be to just remove the portal it would upset people but hey they'll be pleasing a vocal minority who most of will probably treat the character like air the moment they feel this isn't a "problem".

[Notecja]

Warly can be used as swap only because of wraps/bundles but at same time these things can mitigate his downsides. As well you can still live pretty well munching meaty stews and meatballs (I knew one Warly like that), if you just time them right and many other easy recipes still exist. 

But still is worth staying as him if you just like cooking and want concentrate on being Food Machine Mk5. Only thing sad about him is nerf to monster tartare. Was even a reason to do it...?

[Frogzard]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Any buff to the dish wouldn't make sense to me personally like what is he more efficient at using thunder powers granted by a random mob in the constant? Why?

Because they're not just thunder powers, they're thunder powers conferred by eating a dish. Warly is the only character who is a chef, so it makes sense that he can appreciate the dish more than other characters. I know it's technically not DST, but Warly does get more benefits from crockpot dishes in SW than other characters, so I don't think it's a stretch at all.

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

A vocal minority feels this way and honestly I feel like your all going to end up getting the celestial portal removed personally I wouldn't care because despite my years of playing I never felt the need to use it but this entire debate is telling Kiel that they can not introduce a character mechanic without worrying about balancing it around the portal so the easy way out would be to just remove the portal it would upset people but hey they'll be pleasing a vocal minority who most of will probably treat the character like air the moment they feel this isn't a "problem".

I wouldn't worry about this. Klei generally does a pretty good job at listening to the players. Since we are a minority, if they removed the portal there would be enough backlash that they would reverse the decision.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

Because they're not just thunder powers, they're thunder powers conferred by eating a dish. Warly is the only character who is a chef, so it makes sense that he can appreciate the dish more than other characters. I know it's technically not DST, but Warly does get more benefits from crockpot dishes in SW than other characters, so I don't think it's a stretch at all.

Warly in shipwrecked gains 33% more stats from the first time eating the dish but also drains hunger 33% faster he also has the negative effect of rather than decreasing the negative attributes of a dish they increase with each repeated eating of it point being Warly was designed differently in shipwrecked but a buff dish still did exist in shipwrecked coffee and at no point did I see him get a additional boost to the buff so yes I'd still say it's quite a stretch it doesn't make sense narratively or gameplay wise/ 

15 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

I wouldn't worry about this. Klei generally does a pretty good job at listening to the players. Since we are a minority, if they removed the portal there would be enough backlash that they would reverse the decision.

I don't think Kiel would keep it like that if players made a outcry about it but I do wonder if there are even enough players who'd care to make said outcry.

[Frogzard]

2 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Warly in shipwrecked gains 33% more stats from the first time eating the dish but also drains hunger 33% faster he also has the negative effect of rather than decreasing the negative attributes of a dish they increase with each repeated eating of it point being Warly was designed differently in shipwrecked but a buff dish still did exist in shipwrecked coffee and at no point did I see him get a additional boost to the buff so yes I'd still say it's quite a stretch it doesn't make sense narratively or gameplay wise/ 

You really think that it's "quite a stretch" that a chef character in a videogame gets more out of his dishes than a non chef? It makes sense narratively because there's precedent (I don't think it matters that there is an exception consisting of one single dish), and it makes sense gameplay wise for the exact reason this thread exists.

[ADM]

The pick and swap feeling is definitely present and understandable, but at the same it’s at a level the character remains useful and enjoyable for preferences reasons to some players I understand, many of my Warly main - or at heart friends just enjoy having a Crock pot on the go, have the unique recipes abilities without having to relie 100% behind bundle stocks.

Just we’ve pretty much all agreed that there’s a missing benefit from eating knowing the many restrictions. I really don’t think adding the +15 hunger from favorite food would be too much asked for freshly unrepeated recipes. Would be magnifique, merveilleux even.