Does Warly need a touch-up?

[Cheggf]

5 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

I don't think that any part of warly's downside should be able to be cheesed.

Man you are playing the wrong game if you don't like that you can cheese if you want to. I'd go make a mod it you want to eliminate cheese since Klei clearly likes giving players choices. 

7 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

Also, i don't think the health part is very interesting, as in practice it just means having to use more slots for healing than you would normally

That is exactly the same as the hunger downside that you are calling interesting. It's just more slots (and also needing to gather more ingredients and have more knowledge of the game, but apparently those don't exist any more).

[Cloakingsumo198]

I just want warly to get perks that involve his character and not his food or crockpot.

Increased mob drops or better stats from dishes give me one of those.

[Mrloxi]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

Man you are playing the wrong game if you don't like that you can cheese if you want to. I'd go make a mod it you want to eliminate cheese since Klei clearly likes giving players choices.

i've considered it, and i'd have to learn lua but it sounds like a fun project, hopefully not too ridiculously hard either

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

That is exactly the same as the hunger downside that you are calling interesting. It's just more slots (and also needing to gather more ingredients and have more knowledge of the game, but apparently those don't exist any more).

The difference between healing for boss fights and food for daily sustainance is that boss fights all happen during a short time frame with no proper interludes (except maybe the twins). Nobody wants to waste a bunch of slots for food whislt exploring, so the more intelligent choice (especially if you have a speed boost to help you gather them) is to take your portable crock pot with you (it's portable for a reason) and source your ingredients on the go, making small stops along the way to cook whenever it seems advantageous. You could carry a backpack's worth of food on you, or you could make your own way and deal with what nature provides for you, using your understanding of how to make ingredients go as far as possible. It's significantly harder to cook a quick morsel in the middle of a klaus fight, for example

[Mysterious box]

35 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

For newbie players pretty much everythiing other than berries and small meats are difficult to get, but i was mostly referring to pepper spice and volt goat jelly. One requires rushing farms before winter comes and the other requires killing a bunch of a pretty rare mob that only spawns in a certain area to get a 25% drop

 

No one stays a newbie forever, farming works in winter, Warly offers more than a damage modifier, volt goats aren't rare they have a set bionme tho farming can take time.

 

35 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

Why is it fine to suggest completely removing the celestial portal, but a small tweak for warly is somehow an unthinkable evil?

It's been demonstrated by the fact that people will still play singleplayer warly despite the fact that his upsides are just stuff that other people can do better and without having to spend time getting the resources for it, and because warly's upsides don't really affect his playstyle in any way, except for making the player prepare more than average

Why is it fine to nerf a character to keep a mechanic a small portion of the playerbase use due to an even smaller portion of the player base feeling like a character that other people enjoy is being cheated by others using his dishes despite being a support based character these nerfs constantly recommended by people who probably don't play Warly and will still ignore him after the nerfs go thru. Ruining his play experience for people who like him but I guess satisfying those who care enough to say the portal ruins but not enough to address the fact that it's the portal's fault if they're unhappy with him.

35 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

• Where is the sabotage? How would what i proposed make him worse? Does not being able to live off meatballs make a character tedious? If so, then why on earth are you playing warly in the first place?
• The speed boost makes sense because it boost his ability to gather ingredients, boosts his kiting ability to make up for his healing difficulties, and most importantly it provides a reward for not just binge eating meatballs whenever your hunger goes to 20
• If players play other characters for their better speed boost, that's fine. I don't want to make warly a meta speedrun character. My ultimate goal with those proposed changes is to give warly a perk that strengthens what i consider to be the most unique and interesting aspect of his playstyle, whilst also making the original driving force behind that playstyle stronger

1. Warly already can't live off meatballs unless your downing a absurd amount of meatballs so I don't know what your talking about there, but what your proposing is the same as saying now Wendy only deals 50 percent damage what you bad at combat or something? It doesn't encourage variety it just makes it more tedious for the sake of it your suggesting changes without considering whether or not people would even put up with it have you ever even played Warly? 

2. Warly doesn't struggle to gather ingredients not sure if you've realized or not but food is plentiful in dst.  Also while you may not know there are other ways to heal aside from food in dst like medicine or batbats even sleeping heals you shocking I know.

3. Problem is your adding fluff that doesn't actually do anything to make people want to play him in fact by making his downsides more intense for a near worthless payoff since again if people want speed they'll go elsewhere your actually encouraging people to drop Warly rather than actually use him.

35 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

I don't think that any part of warly's downside should be able to be cheesed. Also, i don't think the health part is very interesting, as in practice it just means having to use more slots for healing than you would normally. EDIT: i'm pretty sure healing is only even the hard part because klei made eating for nourishment so cheeseable

Most of the cast cheeses their downsides far easier than Warly maybe look into nerfing them first?

33 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Unlike warly who's dishes are likely to eventually spoil or be consumed inevitably needing to swap back to him.

She's probably more of a "swap character" than warly and the worst example to choose.

I see a interesting word there being "swap" I wonder if there's a easy solution...

32 minutes ago, Teoretycznie said:

What Idea? because I spit them like a mad man, and I don't know to which one you'r referring to. And I don't want you to agree with me, it would be even better if you dissagree and provide any reasoning, not just say it's bad.

I don't have ideas for adding to Warly because I feel he's good as is. This topic is about Warly being bad because portal exists me seeing this makes me come to what I feel is the logical conclusion if the portal is what makes you feel he's bad then simply remove the portal if you feel the ability to use a character's perk in the absence of that character makes that character bad then that means the ability to swap characters is a bad and even harmful game mechanic.

 

It's not even like I hated everything people have suggested in this some ideas were legitimately interesting.

[Cloakingsumo198]

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I see a interesting word there being "swap" I wonder if there's a easy solution...

What do you mean? 

Spoiler

If it's about the celestial portal I'm not interested....

 

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

What do you mean? 

  Reveal hidden contents

If it's about the celestial portal I'm not interested....

 

Then I feel we have a non issue but that's just me.

[Cloakingsumo198]

25 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Then I feel we have a non issue but that's just me.

I'm not sure what you mean but I'll elaborate on my part since I actually like warly but despise Winona even though to me they suffer the same issue.

Their perks lie outside of their character everything revolves around their contraptions and what they can receive out of it without those characters themselves having anything tied to themselves.

Their character's have nothing. Their special contraptions feel like they've could've been made as their own special mechanics without involving extra characters since the characters themselves aren't required or even provide any additional benefit from sticking with them after their use has passed. 

Winona doesn't have special interactions with her buildings she can't upgrade or boost them, one of her upsides becomes a downside at half hunger and the other hardly comes into play at all.

Warly doesn't gain additional benefit from eating his special dishes or spices he doesn't get increased duration or power. He doesn't even have any special perk tied to his own body aside from the access to his portable crockpot and seasoning set. His only benefit from existing aside from being a kitchen slave is having a slightly larger stomach which also comes with the downside of starving faster.

Even without the ability to swap characters all the other characters in the roster has their own special set of "tools" and abilities.

Meanwhile warly and Winona only feel like tools.

Spoiler

Imagine if warly wasn't ported over and we just had a cooking rework instead providing all the benefits warly does.

While Winona could have just never existed at all simply adding the contraptions to the end game where most people are trying to "automate" their world already.

 

[Mrloxi]

5 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

No one stays a newbie forever, farming works in winter, Warly offers more than a damage modifier, volt goats aren't rare they have a set bionme tho farming can take time.

this whole thing was about whether warly was accesible for new players. by that logic any game is accesible to newbies because they can just get better at the game

farming peppers during winter is a fool's errand, especially since no new seeds drop so you've got a limited number of attempts at that 1.7% chance

by rare i meant that volt goats tend to be few in numbers unless you've got them turned up to more common in the settings

a damage boost isn't warly's only kit, but it's certainly his most useful. grim galette can be used to make som big brain plays but those are beyond most new players and also costs nightmare fuel (not something newbies are too good at collecting without dying). the temperature dishes are pretty useless; not even lasting for a full day, and the more useful of the two costs dragonfruit and pepper. bone boullion takes bone shards and whilst newbies tend to make a lot of skeletons, rarely do they ever get to get the bone shards back from them. this leaves us with fish cordon bleu which, to be fair, can be made with ingredients that are naturally found in abundance during the time in which it's actually needed (spring); however, given how difficult warly can be for a newbie up until that point i find it unlikely that they'd make it there alive

tl;dr cooking man not good for fresh installs

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Why is it fine to nerf a character to keep a mechanic a small portion of the playerbase use due to an even smaller portion of the player base feeling like a character that other people enjoy is being cheated by others using his dishes despite being a support based character these nerfs constantly recommended by people who probably don't play Warly and will still ignore him after the nerfs go thru. Ruining his play experience for people who like him but I guess satisfying those who care enough to say the portal ruins but not enough to address the fact that it's the portal's fault if they're unhappy with him.

i never mentioned the portal. i don't care about the portal. if a wolfgang can get a x6 damage boost off of my dishes then good for them. just because somebody thinks improvements can be made to a character, doesn't mean they're some evil portal-worshipping nerf lover. if giving warly a perk that helps strengthen the playstyle introduced by his downside also makes people who dislike switch characters happy then that's a good thing. i know you and some others in this thread don't consider the switch character argument to be a valid one and i specifically chose not to invoke it, instead focusing on how i think his gameplay could be made more interesting by providing a helpful reward for players who don't cheese the repeat dish penalty (which, in all fairness, could still be cheesed even with a longer dish memory time. meaty stew + 2 meatballs provides enough for a 3 day rotation). secondly i don't really think it's a nerf, more of an increased focus on one area of his playstyle. some people would probably even argue that in a game like DST, a speed boost like what i proposed would be way too OP. lastly i'm not a person who "probably doesn't play warly" i'm someone who probably plays too much warly because i fell in love with his playstyle. it's why i want to change him and not wurt, with whom i have no experience nor care for. wanting to improve something and suggesting improvements for it is a sign that you love it, not that you want to ruin it for everyone else out of spite

 

41 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

1. Warly already can't live off meatballs unless your downing a absurd amount of meatballs so I don't know what your talking about there, but what your proposing is the same as saying now Wendy only deals 50 percent damage what you bad at combat or something? It doesn't encourage variety it just makes it more tedious for the sake of it your suggesting changes without considering whether or not people would even put up with it have you ever even played Warly? 

2. Warly doesn't struggle to gather ingredients not sure if you've realized or not but food is plentiful in dst.  Also while you may not know there are other ways to heal aside from food in dst like medicine or batbats even sleeping heals you shocking I know.

3. Problem is your adding fluff that doesn't actually do anything to make people want to play him in fact by making his downsides more intense for a near worthless payoff since again if people want speed they'll go elsewhere your actually encouraging people to drop Warly rather than actually use him.

1. a 3 meatball rotation, whilst not hunger positive, can keep warly going for more than 5 days, accounting for human error. add another meatball in the mix whenever your hunger gets really low and you've got a rotation that you can keep up indefinitely as long as you don't run out of meat, but this is DST, where meat is one of the most common and easy food sources that doesn't require special attention

as for the middle part, i apologise if it came off as mocking your ability. This was not my intention for that point, and i know how annoying it is when the response to criticism is "just git gud lol". what i was trying to say was "how is making it a little harder to cheese the downside making it tedious? (especially since it's still cheeseable, just requiring 1 more meatball than it did before)"

2. food in the constant is plentiful, but often far apart. even more so if you want to have a diverse diet. it gives warly a reason to gather more different ingredients and the means to do so

i really don't see how having to make a second meatball is tedious but sleeping in DST isn't. also i don't think the speed boost should exist because warly cannot fight without it, i think it'd be nice to have one of your combat  options strengthened since the easiest and often cheapest has been taken away from you quite a bit. WX doesn't need to be able to get closer to clockworks, it just helps his playstyle of an early ruins rusher and fits thematically what with him being a robot himself

3. as i've stated before, i don't really think it's much of a nerf at all, and whilst it's true that if a player wants to play the fastest mario they'll play other characters, anyone who wants to play the most x character probably wouldn't play warly anyway. anone who wants the most damage would probably play wolfgang since he's not reliant on the weather to get his power and also doesn't take anywhere near as much prep time. anyone who wants the most survivability would probably pick wigfrid with her innate damage reduction and lifesteal. The people who would play warly because of this change are: people who like warly's playstyle but were disappointed by how easily sidesteppable his downside was and how unrewarding not cheesing it was, people who appreciate a character with a powerful set of abilities and are fine with having to alter their playstyle to make the most of their character, and the most dreaded of all: people who didn't like that all of warly's important character perks could begiven to another character. i know you don't agree with that last group, but they probably would like warly more if he had a selfish perk

also on the subject of fluff, why does warly have a double campfire cooking speed? he can't even eat what he cooks unless he cooks it a second time in his crockpot!

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Most of the cast cheeses their downsides far easier than Warly maybe look into nerfing them first?

as stated before, i think that's an issue on those characters too, but i don't really have enough experience with them to suggest a solution

plus i think wendy mains would tear me to shreds if i tried

• Drag files here to attach, or choose files...

oh dear i'm not sure if it's just an issue on my end but that absolutely glitched with the system

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Their perks lie outside of their character everything revolves around their contraptions and what they can receive out of it without those characters themselves having anything tied to themselves.

Their contraptions are their character it's what you expect from a chef character cooking is his power and his character you don't expect a lumber jack to have a focus outside of being a lumber jack do you? From the outside looking in Woodie would be the weird one here for example. Cooking is his character it's even the focus of his short Warly's also got access to some of the best crockpot dishes as well and not just buff dishes.

2 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Warly doesn't gain additional benefit from eating his special dishes or spices he doesn't get increased duration or power. He doesn't even have any special perk tied to his own body aside from the access to his portable crockpot and seasoning set. His only benefit from existing aside from being a kitchen slave is having a slightly larger stomach which also comes with the downside of starving faster.

I mean this more or less applies to Wickerbottom as well Warly's design is to make use of cooking to make his life easier not to push how good he is with non cooking based abilities or showcase his ability to manipulate food he's eaten. that being said I'm not against him getting more minor perks so long as they don't nerf him and that actually make sense.

3 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Winona doesn't have special interactions with her buildings she can't upgrade or boost them, one of her upsides becomes a downside at half hunger and the other hardly comes into play at all.

I feel like Winona's bigger issue is she has only 2 crafts actually worth using her tape and her catapult I'm willing to bet if kiel increased the amount of different machine crafts she had and gave them a variety of functions even if she didn't have exclusive use of them people would swarm to her engineer characters are very popular but she doesn't give that vibe yet mostly because she was the first and kiel was on a different balancing scale back then.

3 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Even without the ability to swap characters all the other characters in the roster has their own special set of "tools" and abilities.

Meanwhile warly and Winona only feel like tools.

That might be how they feel to you but to most people who use them or at least Warly they use them and stick with them heck most players don't even know about the portal to swap and even then not every character needs to be designed with the same concept in mind personally if they were to add on to Warly I'd like to see him getting even more dishes exclusive to his portable crock as more food options become available I don't play him because of some random perk he might have on his person I play him for his cooking ability.

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

this whole thing was about whether warly was accesible for new players. by that logic any game is accesible to newbies because they can just get better at the game

The main topic of this thread was about him being a "swap character" that aside a game shouldn't be balanced around new players it should be balanced for the average player and when I say that I don't mean someone with a huge amount of hours or someone just picking up the game(newbie) I mean players who understand the basics a person is a newbie for a rather short time unless they refuse to learn from mistakes or have outside issues(connection or just not very good at games for example which is fine)

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

farming peppers during winter is a fool's errand, especially since no new seeds drop so you've got a limited number of attempts at that 1.7% chance

Pepper still isn't a requirement to play but you could always try your luck with getting pepper seeds from catcoons if your desperate. 

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

a damage boost isn't warly's only kit, but it's certainly his most useful. grim galette can be used to make som big brain plays but those are beyond most new players and also costs nightmare fuel (not something newbies are too good at collecting without dying). the temperature dishes are pretty useless; not even lasting for a full day, and the more useful of the two costs dragonfruit and pepper.

Debatable temperature dishes can take temperature management out of more serious fights or can just be used to work/fight non stop for a season which can save a fair amount of time also once you have a established farm for the crops needed it should be very easy for you to stockpile them.

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

bone boullion takes bone shards and whilst newbies tend to make a lot of skeletons, rarely do they ever get to get the bone shards back from them.

fish drop bone shards when they rot

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

this leaves us with fish cordon bleu which, to be fair, can be made with ingredients that are naturally found in abundance during the time in which it's actually needed (spring); however, given how difficult warly can be for a newbie up until that point i find it unlikely that they'd make it there alive

This is a non issue if a player can't survive till spring that's on the player not the dish this is why newbies shouldn't be the point of balance even more so considering many stick to pubs and asking someone to stay on a server till spring is understandably demanding considering how much real time it takes that being said Warly is a character that asks that you know how to properly use the crockpot so he doesn't need to be balanced around new players since he's designed to expect at least a basic level of knowledge about dst to play him he's not meant to be your first character if he was he wouldn't have lost his ability to eat non crockpot dishes.

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

doesn't mean they're some evil portal-worshipping nerf lover.

ok but like what you proposed was giving him a overused generic perk and making his downside even harsher I can't see that as anything but a nerf. A speed boost doesn't impact Warly's gameplay anymore than Wilsons it doesn't have any connection to him being a chef it's just a speed boost for the sake of speed. It's like saying why don't we give Maxwell a speed boost for the sake of collecting logs and rocks faster sure you can do it but like why again I'm not against him getting new mini perks but I feel like they need to make sense and they shouldn't be too strong considering everything he already has and the last thing he needs is a stronger downside for the sake of having a stronger downside it might make you feel better personally but that's not how you make a character more accessible.

I will apologize about the "person who doesn't play Warly" remark the suggestions just seemed so out there for me sorry.

3 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

1. a 3 meatball rotation, whilst not hunger positive, can keep warly going for more than 5 days, accounting for human error. add another meatball in the mix whenever your hunger gets really low and you've got a rotation that you can keep up indefinitely as long as you don't run out of meat, but this is DST, where meat is one of the most common and easy food sources that doesn't require special attention

I mean while this is possible it's also possible with just about any other dish and is more resource intensive than using even slightly more variety even if someone is strangely playing like this I feel like the sheer amount of resources they waste doing this is it's own kind of punishment as you need to be good enough to actually proactively be that bad which is a crazy thought in of itself. Also a factor to consider a not small number of players are bad at combat. That being said I've never personally come across a Warly who lived soley off meatballs honestly I never knew it was possible before this.

3 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

2. food in the constant is plentiful, but often far apart. even more so if you want to have a diverse diet. it gives warly a reason to gather more different ingredients and the means to do so

it's not as far apart as you might think pig houses are relocatable so there's a meat source, volt goats are another meat source, spider dens are relocatable and a monster meat source, buzzards are a drumstick and morsel source, bee boxes are a honey source, cactus are a vegetable source, berry bushes are a fruit and drumstick source, and that's all in one bionme and tons of meal combinations at that.

3 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

The people who would play warly because of this change are: people who like warly's playstyle but were disappointed by how easily sidesteppable his downside was and how unrewarding not cheesing it was, people who appreciate a character with a powerful set of abilities and are fine with having to alter their playstyle to make the most of their character, and the most dreaded of all: people who didn't like that all of warly's important character perks could begiven to another character. i know you don't agree with that last group, but they probably would like warly more if he had a selfish perk

The problem is the change would turn off more people to Warly and for what? A greater sense of self accomplishment for the minority who could simply challenge themselves more? Even then why not make the boost something unique that actually helps Warly in his role as a cook?

 

3 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

also on the subject of fluff, why does warly have a double campfire cooking speed? he can't even eat what he cooks unless he cooks it a second time in his crockpot!

need to cook birch nuts before they can be used in the crockpot and meats tend to last longer when cooked. 

3 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

plus i think wendy mains would tear me to shreds if i tried

True...

[cropo]

I would assume a majority of portal usage happens in Singleplayer worlds. In Multiplayer I don't think I would want someone constantly swapping to Warly to make dishes and swap to someone else, and in Singleplayer I think the player should have the right to utilize every characters perks by switching to them when needed. 

 

Shipwrecked Warly had a backpack that worked like an insulation pack but had 8 slots instead of 6 like the insulation pack did in Singleplayer. I think a buff he should get, if any, is a backpack that works as a salt pack but without the limitations of the salt pack and can only be used by him. I liked the idea of him having a ''stronger'' fridge backpack than other characters. Or maybe when he uses salt to restore a dishes freshness it gets much more freshness if he's the one doing it than anyone else.

[Mrloxi]

9 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The main topic of this thread was about him being a "swap character" that aside a game shouldn't be balanced around new players it should be balanced for the average player and when I say that I don't mean someone with a huge amount of hours or someone just picking up the game(newbie) I mean players who understand the basics a person is a newbie for a rather short time unless they refuse to learn from mistakes or have outside issues(connection or just not very good at games for example which is fine)

By "whole thing" i was referring to the specific comment that that reply chain was based on. As for the rest of the paragraph; i agree that not every character should be based around completely new players. That's what i was saying to begin with: warly isn't designed to be played by newer players since they don't know all the recipes that are needed to make the most out of his kit and also don't know how to rush for the ingredients that can make warly so powerful, and we shouldn't let warly's downside be so weak just because some new players don't know all the recipes yet

 

10 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Pepper still isn't a requirement to play but you could always try your luck with getting pepper seeds from catcoons if your desperate.

Debatable temperature dishes can take temperature management out of more serious fights or can just be used to work/fight non stop for a season which can save a fair amount of time also once you have a established farm for the crops needed it should be very easy for you to stockpile them.

fish drop bone shards when they rot

This is a non issue if a player can't survive till spring that's on the player not the dish this is why newbies shouldn't be the point of balance even more so considering many stick to pubs and asking someone to stay on a server till spring is understandably demanding considering how much real time it takes that being said Warly is a character that asks that you know how to properly use the crockpot so he doesn't need to be balanced around new players since he's designed to expect at least a basic level of knowledge about dst to play him he's not meant to be your first character if he was he wouldn't have lost his ability to eat non crockpot dishes.

As i said just above, these are all reasons why warly isn't meant to be played by newer players: they won't be able to rush farms to get the ingredients that can give him upsides, they won't know that rotten fishes drop bone shards, they won't be able to survive till spring without something helping them. I'm glad we agree on that point

 

10 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

ok but like what you proposed was giving him a overused generic perk and making his downside even harsher I can't see that as anything but a nerf. A speed boost doesn't impact Warly's gameplay anymore than Wilsons it doesn't have any connection to him being a chef it's just a speed boost for the sake of speed. It's like saying why don't we give Maxwell a speed boost for the sake of collecting logs and rocks faster sure you can do it but like why again I'm not against him getting new mini perks but I feel like they need to make sense and they shouldn't be too strong considering everything he already has and the last thing he needs is a stronger downside for the sake of having a stronger downside it might make you feel better personally but that's not how you make a character more accessible.

I don't think it's generic at all. Whilst a few other characters have speed boosts, what makes it so unique is how that speed boost is acquired: by interacting honestly with the repeat dish penalty and not bypassing it (which is still possible to an extent, just not with a single dish type). Secondly, speed is more important on warly than wilson since the worsening of food healing pushes him to kite instead (or use more expensive methods of healing), he can harvest different ingredients faster before he's got full meat honey and veg farms set up (and even once he does he can harvest ingredients like fishes, barnacles and cave fruits faster). But that's just the gameplay connection; it also fits his character of someone who craves variety and does well off of it. If eating something that the other survivors would consider to be a fine meal is disgusting for him because he needs variety, how far-fetched is it to think that achieving that variety would make him happier and more capable of putting more energy into life (as i've said before, he could say something like "that meal put a spring in my step"). Chef isn't warly's only character trait. Most of the DST cast has more to them than just their job. Also, how come you say at the start that it's a nerf but at the end you say that the perk is too strong? Lastly, the character doesn't need to be more accessible to new players, as both you and i have said before

10 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I mean while this is possible it's also possible with just about any other dish and is more resource intensive than using even slightly more variety even if someone is strangely playing like this I feel like the sheer amount of resources they waste doing this is it's own kind of punishment as you need to be good enough to actually proactively be that bad which is a crazy thought in of itself. Also a factor to consider a not small number of players are bad at combat. That being said I've never personally come across a Warly who lived soley off meatballs honestly I never knew it was possible before this.

That setup wastes 18 total hunger to the repeat dish penalty, 34 if you eat 4 meatballs. that's 1.5 more meatballs every 5 rotations or so, which really doesn't take anywhere near as much time to collect the ingredients for than a diverse mealset. You are correct in saying that very few warly players play like this however, as most of them will probably use the meatball + meaty stew strat, a much less cheesy method of staying on top of hunger. If the dish penalty was boosted to 3 days, it would take 1 more meatball to stay on top of hunger for the full rotation. The strengthened downside isn't meant to punish every warly player and make everything harder, but to prevent absolute cheesing of the most interesting part and to nudge players towards eating a varied diet, in combination with the upside which rewards eating a varied diet and not just 2 dishes (something that's still possible to do, but you just won't get the most out of the new downside). The downside probably won't affect you very much unless you just eat meatballs. It's quite a bit more carrot than stick for anyone who isn't trying to cheese it and even if you do cheese it a little, it's more like being lightly tapped with a stick than being hit

 

11 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

it's not as far apart as you might think pig houses are relocatable so there's a meat source, volt goats are another meat source, spider dens are relocatable and a monster meat source, buzzards are a drumstick and morsel source, bee boxes are a honey source, cactus are a vegetable source, berry bushes are a fruit and drumstick source, and that's all in one bionme and tons of meal combinations at that.

 

cactus spawns all around the biome, spiders and bees (thanks to spring) need to be kept well away from the rest of the food sources because of their violent tendencies, buzzards appear pretty much at random in unmoveable spots, berry bushes are a horribly inefficient food source and volt goats are quite slow to respawn. that's still a decent amount of running. Additionally, whilst it's possible to make dishes out of all of those ingredients, you'd need better food sources if you wanted to make actually good dishes out of it.

 

11 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

The problem is the change would turn off more people to Warly and for what? A greater sense of self accomplishment for the minority who could simply challenge themselves more? Even then why not make the boost something unique that actually helps Warly in his role as a cook?

who would it turn off? people who used to cheese him before but now can't? (or can sorta cheese it but have to spend a few more resources on doing so) peple who like warly exactly as he is and don't want anything to change about the character? because that's a pretty small  subset of an already small number of people. I reckon a lot of people were turned off from warly because playing in the interesting way his character design suggests rewards them less than pretending it doesn't exist and just eating everything in their inventory every 2 days. People who want a challenge might play warly since that challenge is unique and interesting, and if they do then good for them. There's a reason the eat your veggies mod exists. These changes would probably make him more appealing to the average player by introducing a twist on his already interesting downside: one that also helps them this time. That's not to mention the influx of new warly players that a warly rework would generate. A lot of them would probably go back to whatever character they main but some of them will stay, and probably find it quite refreshing to see that some of the less useful crockpot dishes are made better nothing can help barnacle nigiri however

 

11 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

need to cook birch nuts before they can be used in the crockpot and meats tend to last longer when cooked.

i know i just found it funny how the character who can't eat ingredients is given a perk where he can cook ingredients faster. it makes sense for his character to be good at cooking fast, what with him being a sous chef and all

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

who would it turn off? people who used to cheese him before but now can't? (or can sorta cheese it but have to spend a few more resources on doing so)

Your increasing the skill ceiling on a character more casual players already struggle with to punish those who cheese it accomplishes nothing as those who cheese will just switch to the next best thing but less skilled players are still punished it's a pointless change.

 

4 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

I don't think it's generic at all. Whilst a few other characters have speed boosts, what makes it so unique is how that speed boost is acquired: by interacting honestly with the repeat dish penalty and not bypassing it (which is still possible to an extent, just not with a single dish type).

How is this more unique than Wormwood's blooming system, Woby's monster meat mutation, or Wx's module system in comparison it's chef goes fast because he eats of different things it makes the least sense of these.

 

4 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Secondly, speed is more important on warly than wilson since the worsening of food healing pushes him to kite instead (or use more expensive methods of healing)

Feel like this is still a poor excuse he's got salt, medicine, batbats, and even just becoming a beefalo rider for hp management it's a unique downside with various solutions just not the meta way of playing.

 

4 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

he can harvest different ingredients faster before he's got full meat honey and veg farms set up

Food is still plentiful in the early does even before his setup just comes down to knowledge of your surroundings his large belly already makes up for exploration time.

 

4 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

how far-fetched is it to think that achieving that variety would make him happier and more capable of putting more energy into life

But this could apply to all characters in various scenarios.

5 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Chef isn't warly's only character trait. Most of the DST cast has more to them than just their job. Also, how come you say at the start that it's a nerf but at the end you say that the perk is too strong? Lastly, the character doesn't need to be more accessible to new players, as both you and i have said before

I can't think of any characters with perks unrelated to their role as a character aside from Willow with bernie I guess.

Nerf was the increased timer.

I don't think speed boost is too strong i think it just makes no sense to the character involved.

[Mrloxi]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Your increasing the skill ceiling on a character more casual players already struggle with to punish those who cheese it accomplishes nothing as those who cheese will just switch to the next best thing but less skilled players are still punished it's a pointless change.

"Know how to make more than just a couple recipes" isn't a very high skill ceiling. for people who've never played warly before, it might throw them off for the first season or so but it's as you say: newbies don't stay newbies for long, and i think explicitly rewarding experimenting with the crockpot (since even if a meal isn't great it's still a speed boost) would help them get better at knowing what foods can be made with what ingredients, rather than sticking to meatballs and pierogi. Secondly, i sure hope they switch to the next best thing because the next best thing wouild be a varied diet and a speed boost as a reward for doing so. I really don't see how it would punish skilled players except for maybe during an early ruins rush. either they'd have to make 1 or so more unique dishes in their meal rotation or making them have to spend 10% more resources per day on repeating a dish (assuming they have a meal rotation and aren't just making anything with whatever they find, in which case it really won't affect them)

 

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

How is this more unique than Wormwood's blooming system, Woby's monster meat mutation, or Wx's module system in comparison it's chef goes fast because he eats of different things it makes the least sense of these.

It's not "more unique" than any of them. they're all unique. Walter's "speed boost" is a mount that he can essentially activate at any time at the cost of 3 monster meat, that helps him get out of melee range so he can get back to doing ranged attacks and controlling aggro. WX's is just an item you can to craft and plug in up to 3 of and then never really worry about. you can replace them with other modules if you want to retool your wx78, giving him an adaptable generalist approach to any problem, so long as he has enough time for his energy to recharge. Wormwood can use an item to activate bloom on a ramp-up, so it rewards careful forethought in when to use it if you don't have a lot. All of these give a speed boost, but to say that they're just the same thing would be unfair because what makes them different is how they're activated. Being rewarded depending on how much of a varied diet you eat is more interesting than being punished for how samey your diet is, and having a little bit of both is the best since they can build off each other's strengths whilst covering each other's weaknesses. As for why mr chef go fast, i'll talk about that further on

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Feel like this is still a poor excuse he's got salt, medicine, batbats, and even just becoming a beefalo rider for hp management it's a unique downside with various solutions just not the meta way of playing.

Salt is extremely tedious to acquire, as is taming a beefalo or gathering all the materials for a lot of healing (something which a speed boost would also help out with). Bat bats are a good healing source if you have the gems and magic required, but it's quite nice to have other options that don't require wasting a bunch of time doing a repetetive task with very little stakes (just to be clear here, i don't think bat bat is repetetive or a time waste, i just think that other interesting options should also be allowed to shine, and what's more fun than dodging an enemy attack?)

 

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Food is still plentiful in the early does even before his setup just comes down to knowledge of your surroundings his large belly already makes up for exploration time.

Plentiful but not always close by. Time is the most important factor in DST, and whilst his large belly  means he can venture out for longer without eating, a larger belly is ultimately just kicking the can down the road. If you don't have farms set up, you can't just go back to base and eat the food from the farms there: you've got to go out and collect that food at some point, and waiting to do so just means you'll have to collect more

 

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

But this could apply to all characters in various scenarios.

None of the other characters are shown to have as much of an obsession over variety as warly does. If you really want a blunt stated justification, warly used to be a sous chef, and commercial kitchens are busy places where you've got to be quick on your toes or the order will get cold. Or perhaps how his separation anexiety causes him to have to do things slowly to calm himself down but eating dishes reminds him of home. He loves eating new dishes and he hates repeating dishes to the point where he will straight-up not even digest some of it. People perform better when happier, and nothing makes warly happier than tasting a new food, to the point that he refuses to pick a favourite because he likes tasting new ones so much. Most importantly i feel, the reason it doesn't apply to other characters is because a speed boost wouldn't especially fit their playstyle. The playstyle makes the character, rarely does the character make the playstyle

 

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I can't think of any characters with perks unrelated to their role as a character aside from Willow with bernie I guess.

i didn't say they had perks that don't contribute to their role, i said that they were more than just one thing. Wolfgang isn't just strong: he's also a coward who wishes he was stronger to the point where he started faking his abilities, and the constant has given him the power he desires. Wigfrid isn't just a tank: she's a performer who's so obsessed with her method acting that she refuses to eat anything without meat in it because she thinks it doesn't fit her idea of a true warrior, and her entering the constant was due to her inability to recapture the magic of her star performance. Warly isn't just a chef: he's a man who's good at cooking who decided to give up everything to support his mother who has dementia by cooking her all sorts of meals and playing her favourite music. He's a gourmet with separation anexiety and a need for variety in his diet.

[Mysterious box]

Honey poultice is reeds and honey bee boxes make you tons of surplus honey and reeds aren't super time consuming.

34 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

Plentiful but not always close by. Time is the most important factor in DST, and whilst his large belly  means he can venture out for longer without eating, a larger belly is ultimately just kicking the can down the road.

By that point you should already have a established food source from basic sources by day 8 to 10 if your struggling with it. If you have a proper base you should never have to go out to get food.

37 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

what's more fun than dodging an enemy attack?

I'd could probably reach the word limit on this if I let myself there's just too many things far more intersting that could done rather than pasting another speed buff perk where it doesn't belong.

 

56 minutes ago, Mrloxi said:

None of the other characters are shown to have as much of an obsession over variety as warly does. If you really want a blunt stated justification, warly used to be a sous chef, and commercial kitchens are busy places where you've got to be quick on your toes or the order will get cold.

And this is translated into him being fast with his hands with cooking and increased work speed are you saying the average chef is a fast runner? Also he has a quote implying he was doing the fast cooking but not the one running the food

1 hour ago, Mrloxi said:

Wolfgang isn't just strong: he's also a coward who wishes he was stronger to the point where he started faking his abilities

He's a strongman who wasn't as strong as he claimed and has a timid heart that still fall under the category of strongman isn't a personality type 

Just as Warly is a picky eater it's his character quirk not just because he's a chef but because of his standards.

1 hour ago, Mrloxi said:

Wigfrid isn't just a tank: she's a performer who's so obsessed with her method acting that she refuses to eat anything without meat in it because she thinks it doesn't fit her idea of a true warrior, and her entering the constant was due to her inability to recapture the magic of her star performance.

She's performing the role of a warrior she sees herself as a warrior but in the end she's still a performer it's been her character since the he beginning.

1 hour ago, Mrloxi said:

Most importantly i feel, the reason it doesn't apply to other characters is because a speed boost wouldn't especially fit their playstyle. The playstyle makes the character, rarely does the character make the playstyle

Nothing about about Warly screams speed more than the others.

[Mrloxi]

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Honey poultice is reeds and honey bee boxes make you tons of surplus honey and reeds aren't super time consuming.

Reeds are plentiful singular resource deposits all separated by distance. gathering a ton of reeds is exactly the sort of thing that would be helped greatly by having a speed boost

 

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

By that point you should already have a established food source from basic sources by day 8 to 10 if your struggling with it. If you have a proper base you should never have to go out to get food.

Making enough farms near your base to have a varied diet by day 8-10 is ridiculous unless you're lucky or already have knowledge of how the map looks. The ability to not have to leave your base comes mostly from the fact that there's no need for variety in default warly

 

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

He's a strongman who wasn't as strong as he claimed and has a timid heart that still fall under the category of strongman isn't a personality type 

Just as Warly is a picky eater it's his character quirk not just because he's a chef but because of his standards.

That's what i've been saying: not every aspect of warly needs to be related to him being a chef. Lore is malleable and if some lore is needed to justify it, klei could write some stuff about how he spent his youth in a track team or something. Wolfgang didn't fake his strength until klei decided to give him new lore in his character update.

 

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

She's performing the role of a warrior she sees herself as a warrior but in the end she's still a performer it's been her character since the he beginning.

Do performers normally get a 25% damage resistance? can they siphon their life from their opponents? If anything, wigdfrid is evidence that a character's mentality can give them some quite powerful effects.

 

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Nothing about about Warly screams speed more than the others.

Nothing about wormwood screams speed. Plants aren't exactly known for moving fast, no matter how much manure you give them. Wormwood has his speed perk to help him kite since his ability to spam down healing is reduced

 

14 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd could probably reach the word limit on this if I let myself there's just too many things far more intersting that could done rather than pasting another speed buff perk where it doesn't belong.

If you'd be willing to share any ideas you have that could be used to reward eating a varied diet i'd be interested to hear them

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Making enough farms near your base to have a varied diet by day 8-10 is ridiculous unless you're lucky or already have knowledge of how the map looks. The ability to not have to leave your base comes mostly from the fact that there's no need for variety in default warly

within those days you can setup meat, eggs, and berry bushes at bare min and if your in the desert you have cactus that's a lot of dishes right there.

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Reeds are plentiful singular resource deposits all separated by distance. gathering a ton of reeds is exactly the sort of thing that would be helped greatly by having a speed boost

As would it help everyone else also you could simply base closer to the swamp if it's too long a walk

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

That's what i've been saying: not every aspect of warly needs to be related to him being a chef. Lore is malleable and if some lore is needed to justify it, klei could write some stuff about how he spent his youth in a track team or something. Wolfgang didn't fake his strength until klei decided to give him new lore in his character update.

The new lore didn't change him it simply explained why his body shifted so drastically so often magic and why he desires to be mighty so much past shame. How would a track story fit into Warly's current character?

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Do performers normally get a 25% damage resistance? can they siphon their life from their opponents? If anything, wigdfrid is evidence that a character's mentality can give them some quite powerful effects.

I'd say that's the constant's magic from her deal much like Wolfgang's body

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

Nothing about wormwood screams speed. Plants aren't exactly known for moving fast, no matter how much manure you give them. Wormwood has his speed perk to help him kite since his ability to spam down healing is reduced

Wormwood is a plant powered by a magic gem known to grant mobs and items powers even then we have fire breathing plants.

 

2 hours ago, Mrloxi said:

If you'd be willing to share any ideas you have that could be used to reward eating a varied diet i'd be interested to hear them

I feel his current kit is the reward tho personally I'd probably want more spices and dishes as they're my favorite aspects and I love to see what else we can do with them now that they effect followers.

[Mrloxi]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mysterious box said:

within those days you can setup meat, eggs, and berry bushes at bare min and if your in the desert you have cactus that's a lot of dishes right there.

that's assuming you find a swamp, enough pig houses to make a decently sized farm, a bunch of berry bushes and the desert all in under 10 days. It's probably possible on smaller worlds, but at the default world size, if you're spending the early game exploring that seems a bit too RNG dependent. Then again RNG hates me so idk

 

On 6/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mysterious box said:

As would it help everyone else also you could simply base closer to the swamp if it's too long a walk

I was referring to the space in between reeds, as they are not relocatable and collecting them will always require walking all over the swamp biome (unless you have a tentacle trap)

 

On 6/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mysterious box said:

The new lore didn't change him it simply explained why his body shifted so drastically so often magic and why he desires to be mighty so much past shame. How would a track story fit into Warly's current character?

I'd say that's the constant's magic from her deal much like Wolfgang's body

Wormwood is a plant powered by a magic gem known to grant mobs and items powers even then we have fire breathing plants.

Maybe they could reveal that the constant has given warly a super-metabolism and that's why he has in increased hunger rate idk. What's important is that lore can be fabricated to explain character changes, rather than defining what changes can be made to characters

 

On 6/11/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mysterious box said:

I feel his current kit is the reward tho personally I'd probably want more spices and dishes as they're my favorite aspects and I love to see what else we can do with them now that they effect followers.

I don't consider it to be much of a reward since you don't have to eat a varied diet to access his kit. Definitely agree on wanting more special dishes and spices as DST gets more content and possible sources of food

[tomoki--1]

The disadvantage of warly is that he doesn't have enough interesting playing methods to support players to play. The cooking process of warly is not much more complicated than others, that is, there are just a few more recipes. If Wally can have a complete kitchen, have a series of complex and interesting kitchenware, and have a return equivalent to the complexity of the kitchen, then Wally will not worry about no one playing. I believe that the current situation of warly is not caused by warly alone. The increasingly poor cooking system in the game and warly's lack of passion make warly boring. As we all know, DST is a team game, and what role everyone plays in the team is quite important. Wally is a chef, but the team doesn't need one person to cook specially, because everyone can do it easily, and everyone can do it. And the contribution of Wally to the team is to add buff to everyone. Wally is a chef, so he adds buff by food. If he is a magician, it is probably to add buff by staff. Therefore, this buff feature has nothing to do with whether he is a chef, mainly because he is an auxiliary role. Players want to play warly because he is a chef. Many players are very interested in cooking in the game, but finally found that this role has nothing to do with the chef, and warly naturally failed.
Therefore, the key to the problem lies in the identity of chef. How to better integrate the chef's identity into the game? I think there are two ways.
The first is to greatly change the cooking system, add more cooking methods and different kitchen utensils, so that the collocation of ingredients is more complex and the ways are more diverse. Give different foods the characteristics of different regions, pull apart the differences of food, and let players choose food according to local conditions, rather than meatballs. On this basis, Wally's changes become simple. Either he simplifies the complex cooking process to give him an advantage, or on this basis, he puts more emphasis on the characteristics of his chef, making him more picky about every step of cooking, so that the final cooking result is better than others.
Another way is to maintain the existing cooking system to make Wally more interesting, but I think it is very difficult, mainly because Wally is a chef, and the cooking system is closely related to him. The cooking system is boring and simple, and Wally's playing method will naturally become boring and simple. Just let Wally have a different cooking process? But that doesn't make sense for the team. I thought about changing the cooking system of other characters to make Wally more useful, for example, making some characters not good at cooking, but this is probably not feasible.
However, it's also very interesting to have many interesting small features like warmwood. For example, let Wally have a unique table. Wally can put food on the table to let the team eat a big meal. This activity will provide different bonuses for Wally and others. As a chef, Wally must be very satisfied, and his teammates can also get higher values. Or let Wally and wickerbottom have some interaction. After all, in Wally's animation, the scene of him feeding his mother soup is unforgettable. Maybe wickerbottom can sleep safely after being fed by him? Is it reasonable. Let Wally have unique actions with other characters to form a combination, or add other identities to Wally, such as fishing master, to enrich the game of Wally players.
Anyway, I think the cooking system and Warly should be changed.