Does Warly need a touch-up?

[Echsrick]

Just now, Dextops said:

how????? if you don't like the portal simply don't use it. There is no person behind you yelling you to use the damn portal because warly is a pick and swap character

the fact that it exist has effectly made me say that, if it dit not exist, this talk would most likly never happend

[HowlVoid]

Ye

[Copyafriend]

I smell… a hot take.

edit: The classic argument of: its a switch character no one plays it *crying emoji*

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, Echsrick said:

the fact that it exist has effectly made me say that, if it dit not exist, this talk would most likly never happend

The fact that you have the option to just not use it means you never have to complain about it since you never need to use it. People who suggest to put limitations on it are a lot of the time people who don't use it in the first place so it'd only effect people who don't want to be stuck as one character the entire world. Without character swapping and easy access (after you build the celestial portal) it'd be very annoying especially for mega basers. Oh you wanna make some merm houses for decorative purposes but you also wanna place sisturns? too bad

1 minute ago, Echsrick said:

the fact that it exist has effectly made me say that, if it dit not exist, this talk would most likly never happend

The fact that you have the option to just not use it means you never have to complain about it since you never need to use it. People who suggest to put limitations on it are a lot of the time people who don't use it in the first place so it'd only effect people who don't want to be stuck as one character the entire world. Without character swapping and easy access (after you build the celestial portal) it'd be very annoying especially for mega basers. Oh you wanna make some merm houses for decorative purposes but you also wanna place sisturns? too bad

1 minute ago, Echsrick said:

the fact that it exist has effectly made me say that, if it dit not exist, this talk would most likly never happend

The fact that you have the option to just not use it means you never have to complain about it since you never need to use it. People who suggest to put limitations on it are a lot of the time people who don't use it in the first place so it'd only effect people who don't want to be stuck as one character the entire world. Without character swapping and easy access (after you build the celestial portal) it'd be very annoying especially for mega basers. Oh you wanna make some merm houses for decorative purposes but you also wanna place sisturns? too bad

[Frogzard]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Tbh at this point this just feels like a excuse by people who don't play Warly and don't care for his playstyle

I love Warly's playstyle. I used to play exclusively as him for a long time. I don't play as him much anymore, but I still like his playstyle.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

it's been said time and time again that the portal can be used in the same way for other characters ... Wolfgang is a swap character because I can just use his damage multiplier for a annoying fight then switch back to someone I want to play what Wolfgang did doesn't magically disappear just as what Warly cooked doesn't magically disappear you may not enjoy him but that's not a character flaw.

So, what does it look like if you keep swapping to characters who are good at something to do that thing?

Wendy: Fighting BQ

Willow: Fighting Dragonfly

Wurt; crushing everything in your path and leveling forests with an army while having souped up stats

WX: clearing the ruins

Meanwhile, what do players have to look forward to as Warly? Clicking the Cook button in a crockpot dozens of times while waiting for a device to apply spices to foods, then bundling them. My point is that Warly's niche is not fun or engaging. The fun part about playing him is using those buffs, but when you can use them as any character that means your playtime as Warly isn't spent using those buffs, only making them (now you could argue you that you could just stay on Warly and use those buffs, but that opens up a different can of worms. I'm more than willing to discuss that with you, but in another reply. I don't want to make this already lengthy post have to take into account every possible counterargument.)

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

this whole idea is based on Warly not having anything amazing to show at other characters while ignoring his portable crockpot, faster cook speeds, buffs, and exclusive dishes are his things.

I never said Warly doesn't have anything amazing, I said his amazing things can be used by other characters at no cost. If you take away those things all you have are his portable crockpot and faster cook speeds, which I don't think are enough.

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

no.

You don't think we should strive to make the characters as balanced as we can?

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

??? incentivizes to play in that way? i never played in that way and like me many other and even if was the case, who the hell cares? warly is a very fun character that can be enjoyed like everyone else, period

Just because you and your friends don't play him that way doesn't mean the game doesn't incentivize you to play that way. You could argue that "incentivize" isn't the right word because Klei isn't actively dangling a carrot in front of us to make use of this mechanic, which is a fair point, but it doesn't really change anything. I would just use the word "enable" instead. The point is that there is a game mechanic that allows us to ignore the downsides of a character while keeping his upsides with no penalty.

 

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

people dont play him that much cuz being less easy than others or/and having other characters that they enjoy more but that doesnt mean anything

That's great, go tell that to those people. None of my arguments have had anything to do with how hard it is to play as him.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Frogzard said:

You don't think we should strive to make the characters as balanced as we can?

 

no

2 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

The point is that there is a game mechanic that allows us to ignore the downsides of a character while keeping his upsides with no penalty.

and for that some people wanna remove his downside....

i dont care about that mechanic when the most funnier characters are the ones with interesting downsides

[Frogzard]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

no

Is there something specific to DST that isn't present in other games that makes you think the characters don't need to be balanced? Or do you feel this way about every game

[Mantispidae]

19 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

Meanwhile, what do players have to look forward to as Warly? Clicking the Cook button in a crockpot dozens of times while waiting for a device to apply spices to foods, then bundling them. My point is that Warly's niche is not fun or engaging. The fun part about playing him is using those buffs, but when you can use them as any character that means your playtime as Warly isn't spent using those buffs, only making them (now you could argue you that you could just stay on Warly and use those buffs, but that opens up a different can of worms. I'm more than willing to discuss that with you, but in another reply.

Oh no the chef's main gameplay is the part where you cook the food

Anyway- its not fun and in engaging to you. Just like lots of people don't enjoy farming, but I do, so I'm perfectly happy spending a lot of time farming. When I play with friends, two of them prefer to stay in base and just mess around there, one cooking (funny enough, they just play wilson. But they just like cooking food and going to bed. Thats all they want to do) and the other mostly farms (has been trying out wormwood, but also really enjoyed warly and making his dishes). Its a multiplayer game, and some people do just enjoy the "boring" support roles. Characters should be able to stand on their own, but its perfectly fine that some character strengths are focused elsewhere.

[Mike23Ua]

Yes, Warly needs a touch up he is my least favorite character in the entire game, why? Because if you don’t know his food dishes, then there’s nothing special about Warly.. Now here’s the thing: this dude is a professional cook… he should probably be the #1 candidate to guide new players into learning the games various food dishes-

Such as: throwing a meat, a mushroom and a carrot over into a crockpot Warly could Remark: “An Egg would make this dish fill even the emptiest of hearts with a little love”

Bam: Player just learned Pierogi without needing to read Wiki.

[Dextops]

1 minute ago, Echsrick said:

the fact that it exist has effectly made me say that, if it dit not exist, this talk would most likly never happend

The fact that you have the option to just not use it means you never have to complain about it since you never need to use it. People who suggest to put limitations on it are a lot of the time people who don't use it in the first place so it'd only effect people who don't want to be stuck as one character the entire world. Without character swapping and easy access (after you build the celestial portal) it'd be very annoying especially for mega basers. Oh you wanna make some merm houses for decorative purposes but you also wanna place sisturns? too bad

[Frogzard]

16 minutes ago, Mantispidae said:

Oh no the chef's main gameplay is the part where you cook the food

It's not that it's his main gameplay, it's that if you take the suggestion of the person I was replying to and keep swapping between characters to do the thing they're best at, all you will be doing is cooking the ingredients you had set aside to make Chaud-Froid and waiting for the spice mixer to finish. Nothing that's fun about cooking is present. It could be fun if you had to make the most of ingredients you scrounged together to survive, but that's not what we're talking about. It would be fun if you actually used those buffs but then we're no longer heeding the person's suggestion.

 

19 minutes ago, Mantispidae said:

Anyway- its not fun and in engaging to you. Just like lots of people don't enjoy farming, but I do, so I'm perfectly happy spending a lot of time farming. When I play with friends, two of them prefer to stay in base and just mess around there, one cooking (funny enough, they just play wilson. But they just like cooking food and going to bed. Thats all they want to do) and the other mostly farms (has been trying out wormwood, but also really enjoyed warly and making his dishes). Its a multiplayer game, and some people do just enjoy the "boring" support roles. Characters should be able to stand on their own, but its perfectly fine that some character strengths are focused elsewhere.

But if you fix the part of the game I'm complaining about, those people still get to do what they have fun with. Both sides win. The "It's not fun to you, but it is to other people" argument only works when there's mutual exclusivity.

[Mysterious box]

59 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

Meanwhile, what do players have to look forward to as Warly? Clicking the Cook button in a crockpot dozens of times while waiting for a device to apply spices to foods, then bundling them. My point is that Warly's niche is not fun or engaging. The fun part about playing him is using those buffs, but when you can use them as any character that means your playtime as Warly isn't spent using those buffs, only making them (now you could argue you that you could just stay on Warly and use those buffs, but that opens up a different can of worms. I'm more than willing to discuss that with you, but in another reply. I don't want to make this already lengthy post have to take into account every possible counterargument.)

This again is just your personal opinion some people don't even engage in combat and just prefer farming or fishing you seem to be under the assumption that everyone plays dst as efficiently as possible many late game players never even change character and some people don't even make use of certain character perks you keep stating what you feel is unfun as Warly and stating it as if it's a fact everyone agrees to despite there being no outcry about this outside of a vocal minority.

59 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

You don't think we should strive to make the characters as balanced as we can?

Be careful what you wish for if your looking for balance the only way your getting it at this point is widespread nerfs to characters, mechanics, and cheese methods characters are not on the same level but multiple mechanics factor into that not just character abilities either so ask yourself is balance really what you want?

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Frogzard said:

Is there something specific to DST that isn't present in other games that makes you think the characters don't need to be balanced? Or do you feel this way about every game

Balance is the antithesis of interesting characters and mechanics in solo and co-operative games. Not every character needs to be optimal. The characters are NOT in competition with one another. Wormwood, very realistically speaking, can be seen as one of the worst characters due to his lack of healing food. Simultaneously he is a fan favorite. Wes cant exist if we care about balance. He’s unbalanced by being bad. Id very realistically argue that warly is moderate to strong even including his downsides. Disliking his downsides being available using character switching is rediculous because you’d have to either remove a major mechanic of the game (character switching) or a major mechanic of the character (being a support).

[Frogzard]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This again is just your personal opinion some people don't even engage in combat and just prefer farming or fishing you seem to be under the assumption that everyone plays dst as efficiently as possible

Just to be clear, I do not think that everyone does or should play like that. This is naturally an issue that veterans are more likely to care about (which is not to say that all veterans do care about it.)

13 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

you keep stating what you feel is unfun as Warly and stating it as if it's a fact everyone agrees to despite there being no outcry about this outside of a vocal minority.

Again, just to be clear, what I'm saying is unfun is the act of unpacking the materials you set aside, turning them into chaud-froid, putting ingredients and spices into a spicer and waiting for it to finish, then repeating those steps ad nauseam. Not surviving, not gardening, not fighting, not actual cooking, not fishing. Just the acts of making chaud-froid from set aside ingredients and applying spice to foods. When you say that every character is a swap character because you can just swap to them to do what they do best, this is what you have to look forward to if you want to play as Warly. I challenge you to find anyone who finds that fun.

 

But more to the point, even if there were people who found that fun, how does it harm them or anyone else to make Warly no longer a swap character? The people who want to have fun as Warly but don't because he's a swap character now have fun, the people who enjoyed him before still enjoy him, everyone wins no?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Frogzard said:

Is there something specific to DST that isn't present in other games that makes you think the characters don't need to be balanced? Or do you feel this way about every game

non competitive games dont need to have perfectly balanced characters and even less when the difficulty selection is basically which character you pick. The only balance that matters is when some mechanic or number is waaay to high or low making such thing unfun, other than that balance doesnt matter. This league of legends mentality doesnt belong to adventure, sandbox, rpg and other games of this kind of will you ask to perfectly balance every FF, dark souls, super mario, kindom hearts, etc characters? that is bland

54 minutes ago, Mantispidae said:

Oh no the chef's main gameplay is the part where you cook the food

this!!

imagine complaining about a chef cooking food xDDDD

[Mike23Ua]

If Warly is a professional cook, then he should know things most professional cooks know right? (Flavors, Portion Sizes, how to Ration when you have fewer ingredients)

The character in this game just feels meh.. meh beyond meh…

Warly has some cool skins but his gameplay could use some spice, I may sound like a salty hater but just hear me out:

Why can’t this guy get a butchers machete that can “chop” veggies or meats effectively splitting them into multiple ingredients for various dishes? Example One chopped Onion = Two Onion.

In Addition and as a food chef- he would know how to preserve foods so maybe give him access to bundle wrap without needing to kill Bee Queen.. or at least a Food Preserving storage pack.

Also that sweet Machete he has for chopping and getting 2x food harvest yields? It could probably be used as a weapon that when killing a mob with it yields twice as much meat drops.

These are just a few of the Simple most basic ideas I can come up with to make this boring character stand out as the cook.

Another neat idea I think would be nice would be allowing him to bait food with irresistible flavor that lures mobs towards it such as classic Tom and Jerry.

Im tired of this idea that characters are fine as is and don’t need changes… if Klei is still willing to continue to support the game with updates, then we should provide our input on what we would like to see.

[Frogzard]

5 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Balance is the antithesis of interesting characters and mechanics in solo and co-operative games.

How does making Warly no longer a swap character make him less interesting?

11 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

The characters are NOT in competition with one another.

 

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

non competitive games dont need to have perfectly balanced characters and even less when the difficulty selection is basically which character you pick. The only balance that matters is when some mechanic or number is waaay to high or low making such thing unfun, other than that balance doesnt matter. This league of legends mentality doesnt belong to adventure, sandbox, rpg and other games of this kind of will you ask to perfectly balance every FF, dark souls, super mario, kindom hearts, etc characters? that is bland

Not everyone feels that way. And before you say "just because you feel that way doesn't mean everyone does" I would repeat my previous point (which is fine, I obviously don't expect you to read posts I made replying to other people): This is a win-win. The people who don't care aren't affected in any way, and the people who are bothered by it are satisfied.

12 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Disliking his downsides being available using character switching is rediculous because you’d have to either remove a major mechanic of the game (character switching) or a major mechanic of the character (being a support).

Oh, THIS is why you thought I was arguing to make him less interesting. I can assure you I don't want to get rid of character switching or support characters. I have two possible solutions in mind and I'd love to hear what you think about them: The first solution (and if I'm being honest probably the better one) is that you can no longer bundle Chaud-Froid, the waterproof dish, or any dishes that have seasoning. The second is that characters who aren't Warly cannot eat Chaud-Froid, but they can be force-fed it by Warly.

If I cannot think of any solutions that satisfy both sides, then I will 100% concede this argument to you since that is what my argument hinges on.

 

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

Oh, THIS is why you thought I was arguing to make him less interesting. I can assure you I don't want to get rid of character switching or support characters. I have two possible solutions in mind and I'd love to hear what you think about them: The first solution (and if I'm being honest probably the better one) is that you can no longer bundle Chaud-Froid, the waterproof dish, or any dishes that have seasoning. The second is that characters who aren't Warly cannot eat Chaud-Froid, but they can be force-fed it by Warly.

If I cannot think of any solutions that satisfy both sides, then I will 100% concede this argument to you since that is what my argument hinges on.

wow that would totally make warly interesting and not annoying at all, i hope klei adds that so certain group of people can feel confortable playing the game and enjoying playing mama simulator "here comes the plane"

[Frogzard]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wow that would totally make warly interesting and not annoying at all, i hope klei adds that so certain group of people can feel confortable playing the game and enjoying playing mama simulator "here comes the plane"

ok, what about the first suggestion?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

24 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

The people who want to have fun as Warly but don't because he's a swap character now have fun

why would affect someone who likes warly how can be played with the portal? that people have a problem honestly

3 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

ok, what about the first suggestion?

dont know which one you mean, i didnt read the entire thread

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

ok, what about the first suggestion?

The first suggestion only makes it to where you bundle the ingredients, make it, switch back and use it. Theres nothing inherently wrong with a character being able to grant his full abilities to another character. And since character switching is an option thar exists, it should work with character switching in a logical and consistent way. To be honest the only problem i jave with warly and his spices is how it scales. But if someone wants to minmax to kill toadstool in record time, he should be able to, because he’s probably alone. And is putting more tjme and resources in to achieve a better result. There isn’t anything wrong with warly being switchable unless klei thinks warly needs a nerf. But the mechanics themselves are sound and make sense.

[HowlVoid]

34 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Wormwood, very realistically speaking, can be seen as one of the worst characters due to his lack of healing food. 

Wormwood isn't held back by his lack of using healing food so this is false. That's what makes this downside interesting, it's not a hindrance by any means.

Characters not competing with each other isn't grounds for ignoring balance. Balanced can revolve around how characters interact with game content, aka pve. If that wasn't the case we wouldn't have buffs and nerfs as we have had so far 

[Frogzard]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

dont know which one you mean, i didnt read the entire thread

It's right above the second suggestion: "The first solution (and if I'm being honest probably the better one) is that you can no longer bundle Chaud-Froid, the waterproof dish, or any dishes that have seasoning."

 

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

The first suggestion only makes it to where you bundle the ingredients, make it, switch back and use it.

There are 2 differences: first, you have to make his dishes/spices everytime you want to use them rather than mass produce them once and maybe never have to again. Second, you have to time it so you are ready to go and do the thing you want to use the dishes/spices soon after swapping so they don't spoil (which, depending on what you want to use them for, could be really hard.) He still has team support, he still has interesting perks, you can still enjoy his perks solo but only as him, you can still minmax speedkill toadstool (you just have to be more committed), everyone wins.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Frogzard said:

It's right above the second suggestion: "The first solution (and if I'm being honest probably the better one) is that you can no longer bundle Chaud-Froid, the waterproof dish, or any dishes that have seasoning."

horrible, that would only make warly a pain to be played when even if you play only warly you bundle your buffs to use them on demand of how in your bundle food you keep the healing food with garlic spice since is cheap, and adding an exception on how bundle wraps work not only feels weird but has 0 sense. This suggestions make me think that you dont play warly

if klei really think that they need to add a buff for warly so people stop crying about a non existing problem they could simply increase the time of his buffs so will be more efficient to use them on warly and even that would feel weird

[Cloakingsumo198]

Warly should get another perk.