Why the Webber Rework doesn't... work

[LonelySkeleton]

20 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Inifinite loyalty timer which makes it worth investing into his followers and allows you to make them more durable to abigail, mass follower healing, the ability to use all follower types, as well as other side perks his team synergy isn't much but he definitely has reasons to be picked over wendy now. 

Infinite loyalty doesn't matter if i don't want to use spiders. Performance issues relating to massive groups of followers aside, spiders can't reliably fight or gather resources. They aren't more durable than Abi as she has her own cheap heals. Only 2-3 spider types are even desirable those being Spitter Healer and Warrior. Nothing else in his kit provides synergy it's all QoL stuff for Webber which is selfish. So the question remains: What synergy does Webber have with other characters and why would i ever chose him over Wendy? I'll take a damage boosting AoE stunlocking ghost over any amount or type of spider followers. I was really hoping that this rework would give me a reason to play Webber for once but unfortunately he still seems obsolete. It sucks that Webber is basically just the goofy gimmick character that kids main because he's cute lol. In that regard the rework was a success i guess? 

You said he now has reasons to be picked over Wendy. What are those exactly?

[minespatch]

I want to see spider muffs in the future for winter.

[TemporaryMan]

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Same with friendly spiders breaking walls for no reason.

They just wanna party like it's 1989.

[minespatch]

2 minutes ago, TemporaryMan said:

They just wanna party like it's 1989.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Infinite loyalty doesn't matter if i don't want to use spiders. Performance issues relating to massive groups of followers aside, spiders can't reliably fight or gather resources. They aren't more durable than Abi as she has her own cheap heals. Only 2-3 spider types are even desirable those being Spitter Healer and Warrior. Nothing else in his kit provides synergy it's all QoL stuff for Webber which is selfish. So the question remains: What synergy does Webber have with other characters and why would i ever chose him over Wendy? I'll take a damage boosting AoE stunlocking ghost over any amount or type of spider followers. I was really hoping that this rework would give me a reason to play Webber for once but unfortunately he still seems obsolete. It sucks that Webber is basically just the goofy gimmick character that kids main because he's cute lol. In that regard the rework was a success i guess? 

You said he now has reasons to be picked over Wendy. What are those exactly?

Interestingly if you have atleast 3 nurses dfly can't kill any of higher hp spiders due to her not being able to attack fast enough so long as you deal with the enraged state. The reason to pick him over wendy is that his followers are actively more durable due to the nurse making his followers basically invincible webber doesn't have Abigail's aoe but his follower system is more than enough to rival Abigail.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

40 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Interestingly if you have atleast 3 nurses dfly can't kill any of higher hp spiders due to her not being able to attack fast enough so long as you deal with the enraged state. The reason to pick him over wendy is that his followers are actively more durable due to the nurse making his followers basically invincible webber doesn't have Abigail's aoe but his follower system is more than enough to rival Abigail.

i didnt know that nurse spiders heals weeber, didnt notice it trying him

awesome

[QuartzBeam]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i didnt know that nurse spiders heals weeber, didnt notice it trying him

awesome

They don't currently, because that functionality is bugged. Splorange had someone write a temporary fix for it until Klei released a proper hotfix. (The bug has been marked as Fixed in the bug tracker, so we know it's a bug and not intended.)

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Interestingly if you have atleast 3 nurses dfly can't kill any of higher hp spiders due to her not being able to attack fast enough so long as you deal with the enraged state. The reason to pick him over wendy is that his followers are actively more durable due to the nurse making his followers basically invincible webber doesn't have Abigail's aoe but his follower system is more than enough to rival Abigail.

Do nurse deal very low damage? Im surprised DF wasn't stunned once... 

[Szczuku]

Art-wise, I am disappointed that spiders did not receive any new animations or an idle animation for that matter. They are still just a still image when not walking around. Nurse spider's back looks severely underdetailed (yet again, the artstyle)

Spoiler

And last but not least the forced smiles are completely unnecessary. Seriously Klei, I get it, Webber can be cute, he's a child and all but for crying out loud did you forget about the concept of subtlety when developing this part of the rework. I'm surprised you didn't also give them puppy eyes and sparkles around their body. 

I mean seriously. Here's a quick edit of a spider that I did as my version of a pacified spider. Sure it's not perfect but I think it's still better than those dead smiles. Yeah, it looks tired but it also doesn't look aggressive which is the point.

Spoiler

Gameplay-wise I'd stick to what has already been said. Spiders should help gather grass and twigs. Healig good should be a throwable and spiders should hold back before consuming everything.

As someone has already stated, wearing hats is nice on paper but pretty useless otherwise. I'm sure Klei designed it purely for craps and giggles like "Hehe public servers will be so wacky now hoho". However I do think that this could be useful. Webber's reworked focused on his human side, how he can use his skills to help spiders. So here's a structure that I came up with: a spider cocoon on a wooden tripod. Webber (and only he) can open it up to reveal a crafting requirement much like when building Pearl's house. The structure would ask for 6 logs and 10 silk. You place that in and the structure gives 10 spiders near it a helmet which blocks 60% of the damage. The helmet is essentially a piece of wood held by silk on spider's head. When you pick the spider up the helmet disappears. That would give players the choice of either spending lots of materials to give their spiders a good armor or to spend little materials for cheap, fast but also not very effective armor. 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Do nurse deal very low damage? Im surprised DF wasn't stunned once... 

I imagine they deal 20 damage like other spiders but they also don't constantly attack and they switch between attacking and healing it's best to bring combat spiders as well

[ForbiddenHat]

not gonna lie, I am 1% of the people that agree with this thread. He's basically just the same as before but with spider taming goodies that barely have an impact on his gameplay, considering him being smartly outclassed by every character's role. I'm not saying that he needs to be the absolute champion, as stated in this thread he's just not that fun to play and is way too expensive to spend only for your "horde" to get demolished by a random boss. 

[MrDo]

It would be more meaningful if it was called event instead of rework. Spiders with happy faces, decorating a spider's nest such as Christmas tree decorations, instantly transforming spiders into another type of spider, wearing hats for decorations etc.; I guess the only thing missing is a competition. In my personal opinion, I would have liked it more if it came out as a Spider-Year Event rather than a Webber Rework. When it comes to rework, the mechanics of the character must change, there must be innovations in the style of play. Things that come with this update: a few gadgets that partially control spiders (I don't quite understand why we need the gadget even though we are spiders), a new item to give heal to ourselves and spiders, speed bonus on sticky ground, ability to put hats on spiders, and decoration. Rework is basically an event that takes a character from old times and tries to keep up with the new time. Being able to craft new items and get boosts from something is just an update, not a rework.

I don't like making these kinds of criticisms about my favorite game, but I can't get out of here and praise the update like a fan just because a company I love brought an update to my favorite game.

There may be misunderstandings and mistakes in my sentences, I apologize in advance.

[Mysterious box]

Depends on how you look at it every follower type character struggles with aoe bosses his followers on the other hand are a one time cost as far as food expenses while also having some of the higher end hp followers warriors and dwellers having 400 hp. The fact he his followers don't have a timer means he boasts the highest consistent mobile dps barring aoe bosses. His whistle has a massive impact on gameplay as it makes his followers the only followers you can wake on command which is very important in dfly fight he's also the second character who can pull his followers out of combat first being Abigail which is also very important in the dfly fight as well as for keeping followers alive in general. Yes there are going to be people who don't like his playstyle but horde swarming is his playstyle there's nothing to fix about it(aside from some bugs) and there's no one who outclasses him at it.

[ZombieDupe]

Putting aside the spider companion stuff, Webber could be immune to darkness and loss of sanity in darkness? Means he would be perfect for caves.

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

 

And last but not least the forced smiles are completely unnecessary. Seriously Klei, I get it, Webber can be cute, he's a child and all but for crying out loud did you forget about the concept of subtlety when developing this part of the rework. I'm surprised you didn't also give them puppy eyes and sparkles around their body. 

I mean seriously. Here's a quick edit of a spider that I did as my version of a pacified spider. Sure it's not perfect but I think it's still better than those dead smiles. Yeah, it looks tired but it also doesn't look aggressive which is the point.

  Hide contents

 

I think the smiles work fine, you get to know which spiders are your friendly followers and which ones are just roaming around, but a little more fun idle animation would be great. That looks like a great reskin for GoH Webber's spiders, which would be awesome.

[-Variant]

1 hour ago, Szczuku said:

Art-wise, I am disappointed that spiders did not receive any new animations or an idle animation for that matter. They are still just a still image when not walking around. Nurse spider's back looks severely underdetailed (yet again, the artstyle)

  Hide contents

THIS! THIS! They're missing so many animations still! They still use eat animations for entering dens, the anim for smiling starts with the hit animation, they're so cheaply animated! I was certain they'd get idle animations this time but apparently not...

I 100% agree on the nurse spider lacking detail, what makes it worse is that they've got a more detailed sprite already there, its just not used.

[W0l0l0]

I kinda wanna control spiders like I'm playing Age Of Empires. I don't know why but I think it would be the coolest thing ever and really unique. 

[CaRat]

Yall do know you cam stop spiders from eating anything with the webby whistle right (tamed spiders) use it once near tamed spiders and they eat nada it's something that says you didnt really look that hard into the update

About the abby, merms, bunnymen being better is completely false considering the amount of trouble they has with more than 10 warriors or one queen maybe better for killing normal small spiders but not anything else.

Then the spider types all have great things about themselves and the fact that taming a spider is pretty much perm now is awesome so here's how each of em can help.

Spider - good dps and the majority of the hoard and makes up most hp.

Spider warrior - beefy spiders with a jump that can get the enemies first hit to save others.

Cave spider - a good meat sheild until the other spiders are ready to attack again

Spitter spider - range and fast attacks make for a confused enemy.

Depth dweller - a killer jump that can catch any foe and extremely abundant in the caves

Shattered spider - surprisingly these guys have a great dps and anything that sits still like crab king will have a bad time

Nurse spider -  heals alot which can keep any hoard going

Hes a great character if ya give him a chance so why dont we just appreciate him instead of saying hes a worse wendy for once?

[W0l0l0]

Would it be broken if hats on spiders lasted forever, but were destroyed when the spider dies? 

[Cassielu]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Depends on how you look at it every follower type character struggles with aoe bosses his followers on the other hand are a one time cost as far as food expenses while also having some of the higher end hp followers warriors and dwellers having 400 hp. The fact he his followers don't have a timer means he boasts the highest consistent mobile dps barring aoe bosses. His whistle has a massive impact on gameplay as it makes his followers the only followers you can wake on command which is very important in dfly fight he's also the second character who can pull his followers out of combat first being Abigail which is also very important in the dfly fight as well as for keeping followers alive in general. Yes there are going to be people who don't like his playstyle but horde swarming is his playstyle there's nothing to fix about it(aside from some bugs) and there's no one who outclasses him at it.

The sad thing is that even the Bee Queen is a boss who is most suitable for using followers to defeat, because of the existence of scary screaming, spiders are still not as good as abigail, bunnymen, merm even pigman/werepig.

[sudoku]

I think all of the variables are there for this rework to be a sucess its just its missing a few things to tie webbers overall playstyle together. Webber is all about farming spiders and building up his army but these two goals are kind of seperate. To tie them together id like to see stuff like:

Spiders poop out resources when eating meat (similar to how pigs produce manure)

Spiders/Spider warriors: 1 silk. 

Cave spiders: 1 nitre 

Spitters: 1 rock

Depth Dwellers: 1 flint (idk what else really)

Lunar spiders: 1 glass

Nurse spider: 1 gland

There should also be more crafts that encourage you to farm these resources and since spiders can wear hats now why not introduce a multidtude of new exclusive spider hats like :

Silk Helmet : increases defense

Silk goggles: increases spider attack speed

Sticky helmet: When walking near a harvestable object (grass tuft, berry bush, sapling), the item gets harvested and the hat immediatley breaks.

Fancy silk hat: grants small sanity aura

Glow in the dark silk hat: provides light radius at night, turns off during day (similar to pumpkin lantern)

Silk pack:  12  storage backpack that is only inhabitable by spiders

Basically more stuff for webber to want to farm spiders for and lots more spider hats for your followers

[DaZoul]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I imagine they deal 20 damage like other spiders but they also don't constantly attack and they switch between attacking and healing it's best to bring combat spiders as well

They actually only deal 10 damage.

This update still has a few ways to go, like wall attacking, getting multiple cookies/craft, and fixing the nurse bug, but I am actually rather satisfies by it. Webber is better, and more fun now. And if that isn't a successful rework then I don't know what is. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 hours ago, MrDo said:

It would be more meaningful if it was called event instead of rework. Spiders with happy faces, decorating a spider's nest such as Christmas tree decorations, instantly transforming spiders into another type of spider, wearing hats for decorations etc.; I guess the only thing missing is a competition. In my personal opinion, I would have liked it more if it came out as a Spider-Year Event rather than a Webber Rework. When it comes to rework, the mechanics of the character must change, there must be innovations in the style of play. Things that come with this update: a few gadgets that partially control spiders (I don't quite understand why we need the gadget even though we are spiders), a new item to give heal to ourselves and spiders, speed bonus on sticky ground, ability to put hats on spiders, and decoration. Rework is basically an event that takes a character from old times and tries to keep up with the new time. Being able to craft new items and get boosts from something is just an update, not a rework.

I don't like making these kinds of criticisms about my favorite game, but I can't get out of here and praise the update like a fan just because a company I love brought an update to my favorite game.

There may be misunderstandings and mistakes in my sentences, I apologize in advance.

the thing is that only the fan base uses the word rework. Klei call these characters updates a refresh and is what it is, weeber was refreshed and bringed new qol mechanics and few new spider mechanics

so ofc it wasnt a rework, is a refresh

[DaZoul]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the this is that only the fan base uses the word rework. Klei call these characters updates a refresh and is what it is, weeber was refreshed and bringed new qol mechanics and few new spider mechanics

so ofc it wasnt a rework, is a refresh

Jesus, finally someone points it out. Thank you kindly

Just seeing the Wigfrid hate speeches back in the day, that it wasn't a rework, god it made me so annoyed

[QuartzBeam]

So I've been reading the comments, absorbing some new info and doing some more testing. It turns out the refresh is somewhat better than I had originally believe, but unfortunately I feel most of my criticisms still stand. So, time for Round 2!

 

Loyalty: First things first, once you feed a Spider, it will remain loyal to you indefinitely, which on paper counteracts the issue of needing 1 meat per 1-2 spiders. But there's some mighty fine print here: picking up the spider or disconnecting from the shard (log off or enter/exit caves) will remove that "permanent" loyalty.

You close the game? Spiders go feral. You drop into the caves for a minute to grab some lightbulbs? Spiders go feral. You drop into the caves and leave your spiders and chester at the entrance? RIP Chester. You pick your spiders up to bring them with you? Better have some more meat to re-tame them whenever you drop them.

 

Eating Meat Off The Floor: As @CaRat pointed out, you can put Spiders in "defensive" mode with the Webby Whistle and they will not eat meat off the floor in that mode. However, the moment you try to use Spiders for combat, which I should repeat is literally their only use, they go out of defensive mode and all unprotected meats are fair game once more.

Using the Webby Whistle mid-combat is not much of a solution either, cause it has a relatively long animation during which the spiders will devour quite a lot of food. Not to mention, the Whistle would disrupt Spiders from fighting any enemy that's still alive.


Spitters: I know a lot of people were expecting these to be pretty good cause they have a ranged attack, but it turns out that every time a Spitter attacks, it moves a bit closer to its target. The spider that specializes in ranged attacks actively tries to get into melee range.I tried to farm some caged Bunnymen with a Spitter and the little six-legged idiot decided it didn't like attacking from a safe distance, so it went into melee range and promptly died.

Also, you need a ranged weapon to really use them for ranged attacks, cause if you try to start a fight with a melee attack the spiders will follow you into melee range.

 

Cave Spiders: Again, these look like they would make a great "meat shield", but it doesn't work out in practice due to how aggro works. Mobs typically attack whoever attacked them last (or more or something), so the moment the Cave Spider hides into its armored shell, the enemy will probably turn around and slap some other spider that just attacked them.

Oh and a lot of enemies attack somewhat slowly, so the Cave Spider will get hit for 100% damage, hide in its shell, then come out and get hit for 100% damage again.

 

The other "old" spiders: I think Spider Warriors are fine the way they are; they're the "standard" upgrade option. The other two aren't so great though.

Dangling Depth Dwellers are literally reskins of Spider Warriors, except they also have (arguably) a more expensive Switcherdoodle recipe (especially with the Bunnyman nerf in RWYS), so I can't for the life of me figure out why someone might choose to craft them instead of the normal Warriors.

Meanwhile,Shattered Spiders have slightly higher DPS than basic Spiders and their HP is a compromise between basic and warrior spiders. Their Switcherdoodle is pretty darn cheap though, which does make them a fairly attractive option. But they also have a tendency to use their super weak AoE attack, which is only useful for accidentally aggroing other spiders and making your spider horde implode into itself.

 

Closing Thoughts:

The "permanent" loyalty is a pretty big buff which I feel almost makes up for the fragility and relatively costliness of the switcherdoodles. Being able to constantly have spiders following you around is fun and unique, adds some decent DPS and healing to your repertoire and it's just sooo cozy.

But having to re-tame spiders constantly when moving between shards or logging off is gonna be really annoying, so I still think meat should be buffed to befriend 4-5 spiders at the same time. (Unless something can be done to make spiders keep their loyalty when you pick them up?)

If that bit is improved and spiders learn to not eat any meat that drops during combat, I think this refresh will be in a pretty good spot all things consider. I don't really mind the spiders being bad vs bosses, mostly cause I don't think it's possible to make them not be bad. Besides, boss killing is already the niche of several other characters.

However, I still believe that spiders could use some non-combat utility and a few tweaks to differentiate the different types further. For example (gonna be a bit of a repeat):

• allow basic Spiders to harvest twigs, grass, etc. for you (they're really not cut out for combat, so might as well make this exclusive to them)
• Spitters should be trying to stay away from their target, instead of going near them and losing their only advantage
• Cave Spiders could use a special ability (like the Nurse Spider has) when fighting with Webber, where they draw aggro and hide in their shells, allowing their fellow spiders to attack in relative safety
• Shattered Spiders could use a buff to their AoE attack or maybe they could help you mine rocks? I mean, they're literally made of moonrock and they can tear down stone walls fine, so that would be a neat addition
• Dangling Depth Dwellers should get... something that makes them not be a carbon copy of Spider Warriors. Immunity to the "epic screech" would be nice, as they already live in the game's most horrifying place. (Also, pitting a horde of spiders against a swarm of grumble bees just sounds fun, you know?)

[Well-met]

3 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

Dangling Depth Dwellers are literally reskins of Spider Warriors, except they also have (arguably) a more expensive Switcherdoodle recipe (especially with the Bunnyman nerf in RWYS), so I can't for the life of me figure out why someone might choose to craft them instead of the normal Warriors.

Ackshualey they have a little less range than warriors so technically warriors are better

the edge of dwellers is their availability i suppose