Why the Webber Rework doesn't... work

[Hint]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but spiders attack chester even when they are in the area of their decorated den

It would be nice if that was corrected, it's quite annoying

@Jason

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Nooahz said:

Honestly i dont think the Devs play this game at all, so they really should listen to the community. I mean, we are asking for webber rework for years, giving ideas about the remake, and... They do this. 

So you lose acess to Bunnymen, pigs and everything hate you... So you can do spider war? Because thats the only utility for spiders. They cant kill bosses unless its Moose or Dfly, and spider still eat your loot. 

I got rlly upset when i was watching Klei on twitch, and the dev just said "I dont wanna hear complains about webber anymore, just wanna see happy smiles now". Webber deserve more then that. 

they have added a lot of qol things and made his army stronger...

[CaRat]

I feel people are focused on not being able to tame a lot due to meat but a quick war says the opposite because as long as your holding space they wont eat very much and you can end up with 4 stacks of meat in a few days. and hunts being easy and viable with spiders makes food easy to obtain.

also I did some testing and Deerclops can be killed with 4 nurse spiders and one spider warrior (although for my testing I did 10 because 1 spider warrior would take years.) so I did 4 nurse spiders and 10 warriors and put a few fires around clops and watch them work. I had a boomerang to fake hit a few times to keep agro on Deerclops. health mod was mostly so you could see his hp but isn't needed. The whistle is pretty good as its radius is bigger than deerclops so you can just use once or twice when he dies and all the stuff is preserved. this only took less than a day and was very effective as losing hp isn't likely and all food is preserved.

I'm trying to find a combo of spiders for bearger right now so if someone know a spider that's effective for such I would love to hear about it.

Spoiler

 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Nooahz said:

Honestly i dont think the Devs play this game at all, so they really should listen to the community. I mean, we are asking for webber rework for years, giving ideas about the remake, and... They do this. 

So you lose acess to Bunnymen, pigs and everything hate you... So you can do spider war? Because thats the only utility for spiders. They cant kill bosses unless its Moose or Dfly, and spider still eat your loot. 

I got rlly upset when i was watching Klei on twitch, and the dev just said "I dont wanna hear complains about webber anymore, just wanna see happy smiles now". Webber deserve more then that. 

They can kill any boss merms and bunnymen can while also being more durable. Also most of the changes made to webber were in fact suggested by the community.

Also while I sound like a broken record at this point fact they have no required up keep means they're more useful than any other follower for every day combat outside of bosses as well.

[Cowboy Maxwell]

1 hour ago, Toutan said:

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it already, but spiders attack chester even when they are in the area of their decorated den

It would be nice if that was corrected, it's quite annoying

@Jason

Yes, thank you. I'm glad someone else noticed this. I was wondering if it was simply because the decorated den was too far away, but now I know it's not the case.

[W0l0l0]

Can't spiders just not attack anything that doesn't drop food by default? It doesn't make sense that a pile of rocks is worth attacking. 

[Nooahz]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

They can kill any boss merms and bunnymen can while also being more durable. Also most of the changes made to webber were in fact suggested by the community.

Also while I sound like a broken record at this point fact they have no required up keep means they're more useful than any other follower for every day combat outside of bosses as well.

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me spiders can kill any boss? Please make a video teaching us, seriously. 

[Cassielu]

10 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

not sure what your impling here spiders are just as capable of killing bee queen even before the update.

it just can be done, everyone else can do it better, even though this is a rare use for spiders, not to mention other character can also use pig to cut down trees and so on.

[Mysterious box]

21 minutes ago, Nooahz said:

Are you kidding me? Are you telling me spiders can kill any boss? Please make a video teaching us, seriously. 

I feel like your intentionally ignoring the part where I said they could beat any boss bunnymen and merms could beat.

Interestingly from what's been said they can also take down deerclopes with proper campfire placement. They're combat only followers but they stand above pigs, merms,and bunnymen in combat versatility.

 

19 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

it just can be done, everyone else can do it better, even though this is a rare use for spiders, not to mention other character can also use pig to cut down trees and so on.

Depends on what your definition of better is considering spiders are much more durable than other followers now and spitters attack just as fast as merms while they do less damage per follower the amount of resources you save using them more than makes up for it. And the fact you can use a mob that heals you and your followers at no additional cost means you'll even save on healing items.

[Nooahz]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

feel like your intentionally ignoring the part where I said they could beat any boss bunnymen and merms could beat.

Interestingly from what's been said they can also take down deerclopes with proper campfire placement.

So pls, make a video teaching us. I am serious, i love webber and i would love see his hidden potential.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Nooahz said:

So pls, make a video teaching us. I am serious, i love webber and i would love see his hidden potential.

You can just use YouTube there are vids of him using spiders to kill bosses rather let me know why you feel spiders can't kill bosses? They have higher hp than bunnymen and pigs and a healing mob.

[Nooahz]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You can just use YouTube there are vids of him using spiders to kill bosses rather let me know why you feel spiders can't kill bosses? They have higher hp than merms and a healing mob.

I saw glermz/jazzy trying to kill bosses using spiders. And was a failure. I tried search on youtube already, found nothing. Can you send me link? 

[Atkvin]

I haven't tried out the rework yet, so I don't have much of a stake in all this, but what if a specific dish, maybe character specific to Webber or Monster Lasagna, held by Webber could immediately tame Spiders in vicinity (perhaps not infinitely, but so long as the dish is held) - but more importantly, keep them from eating ANY dropped meat or loot with their eyes set on another tasty meal already.

Would give players control over the spiders eating precious meat and loot from hunting, makes taming trivial and quick, allows dropped spiders to be tamed again immediately... although I'm not sure they should cease being a follower when picked up and dropped in the first place.

 

Spiders and hats have some untapped potential too. I'm not sure how to improve giving armor to spiders without making it trivial, but I definitely think any spider given a hat should disable their insanity aura as Webber pacifies them and makes them look more friendly and civilized.

Though not quite enough to soothe human friends' minds like befriended pigs can, this would further prevent hordes from being nuisances to his allies by negating the insanity aura. Maybe even give this mechanic a small extra use in the Spiders repairing any sewing kit-repairable hats they're wearing, so any non-armor hats can even last infinitely for pacifying purposes.

[Mysterious box]

12 minutes ago, Nooahz said:

I saw glermz/jazzy trying to kill bosses using spiders. And was a failure. I tried search on youtube already, found nothing. Can you send me link? 

It's a bit old but it still works what bosses did he fight with them anyway? keep in mind that the mods are visual.

10 minutes ago, Atkvin said:

I haven't tried out the rework yet, so I don't have much of a stake in all this, but what if a specific dish, maybe character specific to Webber or Monster Lasagna, held by Webber could immediately tame Spiders in vicinity (perhaps not infinitely, but so long as the dish is held) - but more importantly, keep them from eating ANY dropped meat or loot with their eyes set on another tasty meal already.

Would give players control over the spiders eating precious meat and loot from hunting, makes taming trivial and quick, allows dropped spiders to be tamed again immediately... although I'm not sure they should cease being a follower when picked up and dropped in the first place.

 

Spiders and hats have some untapped potential too. I'm not sure how to improve giving armor to spiders without making it trivial, but I definitely think any spider given a hat should disable their insanity aura as Webber pacifies them and makes them look more friendly and civilized. Though not quite enough to soothe his friends like befriended pigs can, this would prevent hordes from being nuisances to his allies, especially in close proximity in base. Maybe even give this mechanic a small extra use in the Spiders repairing any sewing kit-repairable hats they're wearing, so the pacifying hats last infinitely.

blowing the whistle stops them from eating meat off the ground but then again it also stops them from fighting

[Atkvin]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

blowing the whistle stops them from eating meat off the ground but then again it also stops them from fighting

Yes, I read the earlier pages of this thread. Add to that the animation of using the whistle during which meat can be eaten and the whistle interrupting combat, a case is made for why a more direct way to stop them eating meat would be appropriate. It would be easier to simply make the spiders be docile and not eat meat when tamed though - the idea of fleshing it out as a mechanic and making taming easier just made the idea more enticing.

[Masked Koopa]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

(Insert video)

15 minutes seems like way too much time for that many spiders, idk.

I'm more interested in nurse spider comboes as shown before, but the main obstacle is that there's a lack of bosses where that's worth it. Deerclops is a chump that will fold to a few merms or bunnies anyway, bear isn't a boss you really need to fight much once everyone who wants an insulated pack has one. Toadstool and Bee queen both have the issue of roaring and making the boss lose aggro, and celestial champion very likely can't be outhealed because I imagine he'd just oneshot them before the heal can even happen. Shadow pieces have low enough hp to maybe be worth it despite their aggro removing passive, although long term people are going to use boat or catapult based cheese. Klaus has an AOE stun as well as the constant risk of your spiders getting pissed at a deer (although maybe that's not a problem with their new passive nature while tamed?). Fuelweaver I'm not sure, but the main challenge of him is killing woven shadows and doing the hands at the same time, so I don't think spiders would be of much help.

 

That really only leaves dragonfly, which isn't exactly known for being a tough fight, and I haven't even seen them stunning her like merms and bunnies can.

I can see some potential cheese strats using spitters on a boat vs klaus or having them replace catapults in stuff like the fuelweaver fight, but that's about it.

[CaRat]

2 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

Snip snap

Alright I will give a list of all bosses spiders can kill as well as annoying enemies or easy food because spiders are cool.

Deerclops - I showed how before

Antlion - just warriors and nurses

Dfly - alot of any kind of spider and whistle when she goes to spawn larvae to stop them from breaking the wall.

Beequeen - alot of spiders for the first 2 phases and then you need to have a ranged weapon to fake hit beequeen alot for the next 2 to keep agro

Moosegoose - s p I d E r

Ancient guardian - s p I d E r

Klaus - same as beequeen but better with shatter spiders and nurses but also use whistle to stop spiders killing deer inbetween phases as well as a ice staff for fire deer so they dont burn em

Bearger - needs A L O T of spiders of warrior or shatter and nurse

Toadstool - (work in progress figuring how to kill it but I think warriors and nurses will be just fine)

Frogs - warriors and nurses ( treat it like a spider war and get the frog legs before em )

Koalaphent - just some spiders and whistle when it dies to get the meat.

Tallbirds and volt goats - spiders plus holding space to get the meat before em

Abigail and wendy - drop some dwellers to stop them from bullying webber mains( A joke maybe )

But my point is spiders are really more viable for murder for many different creatures you just need to think like a webber and assume everything dies to spiders.

 

[Zeklo]

One the topic of the spider smile. I think I may like it a bit more if the eyes didn't arch. 

[Mysterious box]

8 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

15 minutes seems like way too much time for that many spiders, idk.

I'm more interested in nurse spider comboes as shown before, but the main obstacle is that there's a lack of bosses where that's worth it. Deerclops is a chump that will fold to a few merms or bunnies anyway, bear isn't a boss you really need to fight much once everyone who wants an insulated pack has one. Toadstool and Bee queen both have the issue of roaring and making the boss lose aggro, and celestial champion very likely can't be outhealed because I imagine he'd just oneshot them before the heal can even happen. Shadow pieces have low enough hp to maybe be worth it despite their aggro removing passive, although long term people are going to use boat or catapult based cheese. Klaus has an AOE stun as well as the constant risk of your spiders getting pissed at a deer (although maybe that's not a problem with their new passive nature while tamed?). Fuelweaver I'm not sure, but the main challenge of him is killing woven shadows and doing the hands at the same time, so I don't think spiders would be of much help.

 

That really only leaves dragonfly, which isn't exactly known for being a tough fight, and I haven't even seen them stunning her like merms and bunnies can.

I can see some potential cheese strats using spitters on a boat vs klaus or having them replace catapults in stuff like the fuelweaver fight, but that's about it.

To be fair this video was also made 2 years ago when we had less controll over spiders and the majority of the army attacking were just normal spiders with 100 hp compared to spitters with 375 warriors with 400 hp it would without doubt be much faster now even more so with nurses.

[Baark0]

To anyone saying spiders suck against bosses:

(also yes I know this is only one boss, but still, a 1 minute ag kill with no gravestone/pillar cheese is pretty good)

[Guille6785]

22 minutes ago, Baark0 said:

To anyone saying spiders suck against bosses:

(also yes I know this is only one boss, but still, a 1 minute ag kill with no gravestone/pillar cheese is pretty good)

you would've done that faster with a stack of killer bees

[Just-guy]

2 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

you would've done that faster with a stack of killer bees

But then you will have to deal with the killer bees once Ancient Guardian dies

[ShadowDuelist]

1 hour ago, Baark0 said:

To anyone saying spiders suck against bosses
<VIDEO>

also yes I know this is only one boss, but still, a 1 minute ag kill with no gravestone/pillar cheese is pretty good)

Did you give spiders thulecite crowns? Also they ate the horn...
This may have worked if your point is "kill AG just because", but it doesn't seem like a practical strategy for an actual game....

[LonelySkeleton]

Wendy still kills Dfly faster and with less resources, i take it you don't play her? When fighting bosses that have mainly single target attacks, all you do is position Abi behind them while you take aggro. This effectively makes Abi invulnerable while still providing the benefits of damage buff and extra dps. And this is without the inclusion of her easily craftable potions. There's some neat tech with the movement speed potion and map edges that allows Abi to effectively kite boss AoE attacks also. I don't main her anymore for a reason she is actually OP while Webber even now is just so-so. Spiders are still my last choice for followers but it's good Klei made them viable against bosses, that's actually quite neat.

Not to be a stick in the mud, Webber actually seems balanced now. While he doesn't appeal to me personally, there is definitely a reason to choose him now so i'm happy. He has a proper summoner role to play now which is great. 

1 hour ago, ShadowDuelist said:

Did you give spiders thulecite crowns? Also they ate the horn...
This may have worked if your point is "kill AG just because", but it doesn't seem like a practical strategy for an actual game....

If you put the spiders in defense mode they will not eat any drops. Simply blow the whistle when the boss dies problem solved! I see like 3 thul crowns on spiders, but tbf the same results would of been achieved with 3 nurse spiders instead so at least that expense was optional. Nice AG kill!

[Mysterious box]

14 minutes ago, LonelySkeleton said:

Wendy still kills Dfly faster and with less resources, i take it you don't play her? When fighting bosses that have mainly single target attacks, all you do is position Abi behind them while you take aggro. This effectively makes Abi invulnerable while still providing the benefits of damage buff and extra dps. And this is without the inclusion of her easily craftable potions. There's some neat tech with the movement speed potion and map edges that allows Abi to effectively kite boss AoE attacks also. I don't main her anymore for a reason she is actually OP while Webber even now is just so-so. Spiders are still my last choice for followers but it's good Klei made them viable against bosses, that's actually quite neat.

Not to be a stick in the mud, Webber actually seems balanced now. While he doesn't appeal to me personally, there is definitely a reason to choose him now so i'm happy. He has a proper summoner role to play now which is great. 

If you put the spiders in defense mode they will not eat any drops. Simply blow the whistle when the boss dies problem solved! 

Techincally webber kills less resources due to not using healing. Silk and monster meat stockpile from wars which you generally need anyway for food and the honey comes from boxes add to that webber's army has no size restriction and that combat spiders deal 20 damage while nurses deal 10 and I can't see a point where wendy beats dfly faster webber with just abigial her dps won't be able to keep up with horde 1v1.

I will say wendy could do the fight earlier in a run tho.