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Research system - Your opinion ?


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Hearing everyone`s opinions on research would be nice :beguiled:

- What do you think of the time requirement to perform research ? Too slow, too fast, just right ?

- Would you like a further extension of the research tree, perhaps in terms of having more dedicated research buildings ?

- What have you to say about research ? Don`t hesitate to bring up any issues and your own ideas :p

image.thumb.png.b898347e944f988ba58161686db8a917.png Random research tree screenshot of the preview build

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too quick, but it's my fault for having a +1000% speed science dupe I guess.

The worst part is having to manually flick between all the different techs to finish material research on them one by one without it completing because you don't have anyone in space doing spacelab research.  So there's not even a notification that research is complete to tell you to switch to the next, and keeping the radbolt generator running can be a bit of a challenge so you really want to use every radbolt immediately.

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If this would be a one time achievement, it would be to easy as a matter of fact.

But when one frequently starts new worlds, because of reasons... it becomes just annoying and nothing more.

Research, when it requires space research, has become a chore and lacks the fun part. It was okay when one had to get that disks from space in vanilla system. Sending a dupe into space to rumble a machine a bit is meh... I usally pack some plastic into the rocket, stuff food into it, and then send a poor dupe into orbit (just the first tile) and leave it there until food or plastic is empty, or research is done. Whats the spirit? Nothing i guess.

I for myself decided to skip research after this world, and just cheat it, I dont like to be forced into wasting time for things that does not make any fun at all. I play for fun, not for chores.

 

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45 minutes ago, Lacero said:

too quick, but it's my fault for having a +1000% speed science dupe I guess.

The worst part is having to manually flick between all the different techs to finish material research on them one by one without it completing because you don't have anyone in space doing spacelab research.  So there's not even a notification that research is complete to tell you to switch to the next, and keeping the radbolt generator running can be a bit of a challenge so you really want to use every radbolt immediately.

I feel this could be fixed if they had the research station have a automation output for when its internal storage of radbolts is full.

43 minutes ago, SharraShimada said:

If this would be a one time achievement, it would be to easy as a matter of fact.

But when one frequently starts new worlds, because of reasons... it becomes just annoying and nothing more.

Research, when it requires space research, has become a chore and lacks the fun part. It was okay when one had to get that disks from space in vanilla system. Sending a dupe into space to rumble a machine a bit is meh... I usally pack some plastic into the rocket, stuff food into it, and then send a poor dupe into orbit (just the first tile) and leave it there until food or plastic is empty, or research is done. Whats the spirit? Nothing i guess.

I for myself decided to skip research after this world, and just cheat it, I dont like to be forced into wasting time for things that does not make any fun at all. I play for fun, not for chores.

 

I also kind of preferred the old system in this regard. I think the only reason they made it the way it is currently was to force interaction with the command capsule outside of when you first build it. Tbh I find the command capsule design in the dlc kind of tedious and also preferred the vanilla design on that.

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4 minutes ago, crbd115 said:

I feel this could be fixed if they had the research station have a automation output for when its internal storage of radbolts is full

How does this help?  I don't want to disable the radbolt generator when the research bench is full, I want to disable the radbolt generator when the research bench AND the radbolt generator are full, and keep the radbolts in the generator.

I want to use the 100 bolts/cycle I'm generating at full speed and that requires switching research target to partially complete research very frequently

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2 minutes ago, Lacero said:

How does this help?  I don't want to disable the radbolt generator when the research bench is full, I want to disable the radbolt generator when the research bench AND the radbolt generator are full, and keep the radbolts in the generator.

I want to use the 100 bolts/cycle I'm generating at full speed and that requires switching research target to partially complete research very frequently

If you don't want to have to micromanage things and utilize automation sometimes you can't run at 100% efficiency. 

Though one thing that would be nice is if the radbolt reflector worked with automation where you could set the direction for each signal. This could also utilize the 4 bit automation as well for more variability.

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I like the recent balance changes to research - moving orbital research up to a "fourth tier" instead of a second "third tier" with atomic research makes the tree much easier to read and understand.

My main complaint comes from atomic/material study research: Supplying radbolts is kind of a pain with no way to determine when radbolts are needed. I've recently been using a timer that refills the collider twice a day (which has worked well thanks to the new beta allowing us to choose how many radbolts to fire, which is a great addition) but even that's pretty slow and sometimes just doesn't work because my researcher's too busy.

Some smaller complaints I have is that some research is really time consuming and it kinda begins to drag on at one point - especially noticeable with Drillcone research. Another thing is that, since some research stations works situationally, I feel like we need to be able to queue multiple research items so that my orbital researcher doesn't waste time waiting for me to change the current research to make full use of their time in space.

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I really like the new research system, where I feel like there is actually a reason to have more than 1 researcher now. I also like the space research that forces you to make plastic, as with the smaller worlds I don't feel forced to make plastic for transit tubes anymore. 

 

I mostly just want automation for the nuclear research that sends a signal when low on rad bolts, and as other have said a queue would be really nice.

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8 minutes ago, Red Oolong said:

I also like the space research that forces you to make plastic, as with the smaller worlds I don't feel forced to make plastic for transit tubes anymore. 

I feel mostly the same and I don't think most people mind the plastic cost. I think most people are just annoyed with the having to do the research in space, especially since you can just send the rocket into orbit and just have it sit there to generate research.
I would like the current system and the old system to sort of be combined.

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1 hour ago, crbd115 said:

I feel this could be fixed if they had the research station have a automation output for when its internal storage of radbolts is full.

not only research station, I believe all buildings using radbolt should have automation output. they require a lot of precision, any mistake may result in dupe injury, so it feels that automation is a must here. but this is offtopic ;)

About the research:

In vanilla I didn't like that research was just to be done early game, unlock everything before cycle 20, never use it for another 200 cycles because it is too advanced. After researching a few most important techs, you stopped pay attention, just clicked random techs in the tech tree because whatever.

IMO DLC made a step in a good direction. New research colors fix the issue with just clicking random techs to unlock them because now you need to build more advanced tech labs. I also like that new research colors are more unique - before, the research was about fetching resource X to station Y, boring, end of story. Now you need to play with radbolts and go to space, I really, really, really love how distinctive they are compared to just fetching water to unlock everything.

How would I see the system to expand?

1. More tech colors, but not related to tier of advancement, but research branch instead. For example - medical technologies could require pink points for all tiers of medical research, but only there, nowhere else. Also, some points could be gathered by other skill than science (eg. doctors could gather pink points for medical research by curing people)

2. As much as I like the idea, orbital lab is both micro intensive and one-time build with little fun. Suggestion - maybe instead of consuming plastic, microlab would require it only to build, and then players wouldn't bother to deliver plastic inside the rocket? Also, currently you can fly to the orbit to make all the research, maybe we should explore more and more hexmap to gather more and more of them? This way we would be encouraged to advance our rocket systems.

3. People like old planetarium animation, maybe microlab could gather databanks to be analyzed there instead of straightforward points?

4. In order to slow down the research maybe it could require to achieve specific goals to be researchable? Like gather X steel before you can advance in some steel-specific tech. This way players couldn't rush all techs at once.

5. Yeah, queue would be nice.

TLDR - IMO SpacedOut makes changes in good direction in this area, but some details could be tweaked or improved.

 

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I feel like it`s too fast. The nuclear research station is barely getting worked on. I feel like the early nuclear research should require more points. Now it`s done in a single radbolt.

Space research is fast but annoying to set up. It`s also boring. Can be done in orbit for no fuel cost. I wish it produced data banks instead. This way you could "bank" the banks and use them for research later. I also wish it required you to visit different space tiles to produce them.

Actually i`d change the earlier research as well. The 2 first stations both requiring basic resources is pretty boring. I wish the advanced research was at a higher tier but required crude oil. This way crude oil would have another use outside making petrol and the mid tier tech would be gated behind oil.

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For the most part, research should take longer.  I've got a mod for that on vanilla to make it cost 4x as much - that really makes the space research take a lot longer.  

Mixed feelings about the orbital research.  It becomes a big sticking point - where I need to get plastic production set up and put a dupe in space, and that tends to break the flow of my game.  

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2 hours ago, Electroely said:

My main complaint comes from atomic/material study research: Supplying radbolts is kind of a pain with no way to determine when radbolts are needed.

Dupe sensor - not gate - memory toggle. parallel a filter gate to reset the memory after x seconds (depends on how much radbolts you want to fire in that time) > radbolt generator of some kind. 

When the dupe leaves the area, the automation will trigger the radbolts to fire, and will stop when the filter gate will tell the memory toggle to shut down again. As long as you have a good supply of radbolts it will never run dry. If not add a switch next to the dupe sensor to trigger it manual.

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On 5/26/2021 at 11:05 PM, babba said:

What do you think of the time requirement to perform research ? Too slow, too fast, just right ?

Early research can be a bit too fast once the Duplicants get skilled up.  I'm ok with Material and Orbital research as it depends on how much effort you put into gathering resources.

I'd be fine with it being slowed overall.  I don't typically rush research anyway so this would just have my researcher(s) spend more time at it instead of other tasks.

On 5/26/2021 at 11:05 PM, babba said:

Would you like a further extension of the research tree, perhaps in terms of having more dedicated research buildings ?

Not really unless a new line of buildings are introduced.

On 5/26/2021 at 11:05 PM, babba said:

What have you to say about research ? Don`t hesitate to bring up any issues and your own ideas

Orbital research feels a bit disconnected.  Flying round trip to sit in a space ship just because that's where my research station is installed feels odd.

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7 minutes ago, Sigmok said:

Orbital research feels a bit disconnected.  Flying round trip to sit in a space ship just because that's where my research station is installed feels odd.

as far i tested you not need fly at all, only what you needed is lift off

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I personally would like a usage for research stations AFTER all techs have been researched.  Like, maybe orbital micro labs could be used to make things, super computers could decrease stress on rockets (like a mission control area), and research tables could increase machine efficiency and increase rocket efficiency (needs to be built and used before rocket takes off)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the pace of research since I'm never in a hurry to tear through the research tree like some (most?) seem to be, but I will say that A) I wouldn't mind if medical research was added if the disease system ever gets another pass, and B) please give us research queues.

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30 minutes ago, goboking said:

I'm not going to weigh in on the pace of research since I'm never in a hurry to tear through the research tree like some (most?) seem to be, but I will say that A) I wouldn't mind if medical research was added if the disease system ever gets another pass, and B) please give us research queues.

im not hurry either , usually i todo important ones first what really needed. im assuming who is really hurry then they can just play in sandbox mode   

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I like the thresholds it creates, combined with the swamp cluster you really feel there are "chapters" to your adventure before hatches / coal, before oil, before reed fiber / atmosuit, and I love it. Otherwise when you know your stuff in vanilla you can rush things.

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I've been thinking a lot about the new research mechanics, and I think some of the problems I have with this great expansion are the fundamental reasons I'm not a big fan of the new systems.

Orbital research is very dull and gimmicky. It's honestly surprised me that this is what Klei went with- nearly everything in this game is extremely inspired and thoughtful. I agree with @SharraShimada, there is no spirit to loading a rocket with some plastic, food, and oxygen to spam research in low orbit for no fuel cost. It just isn't very engaging and doesn't involve many other mechanisms of ONI, which is the essence of what makes this game great. 

I think a compelling change would be to tie a research resource, such as data disks, to exploration. This could come from the telescope or the cartographer module when you discover a new blank hex of space (+1x data),  a new asteroid (+3x), or a new planet (+5x). Additionally, each exoplanet's Gravitas POI's could reward some when you rummage through the computers, etc. There could also be a new station to analyze the cool relics we find for a big reward. This would also provide an alternative pathway to finishing research with the new rocket module. 

Nuclear research is a loaded topic for me. As @pether said, for radbolt consumes there should be an automation output with a radbolt threshold. I'm aware you can make a Rube Goldberg machine with weight plates, timers, etc, but I'm not sure there's a system that is actually optimal, which is frustrating. More importantly, I don't think intermediate automation should gate doing functional research. That could be a roadblock for a lot of players, and if the only solution to avoid automation is micromanaging, well, that's just tedious. 

The next issue is with radbolt generation / radiation itself. To generate radbolts we need either space radiation (30), the satellite (150-250), nuclear waste(diminishes but easily exploitable), shinebugs and wheezeworts. I'd love to see a practical use of uranium to do this research instead. Even with several hundred hours into the expansion, I haven't touched it outside of sandbox, and I don't think I'm the only one. Building a steam turbine goliath just seems to be a very limited use for a brand new resource. We need more uranium consumers, and this could be one use of it. As of now there's just no competition to ranching shine bugs and dumping eggs into a 2x1 waterlocked room where they don't get overcrowded. In about 20 cycles you can get 500 radbolts/cycle, forever. 

Lastly, I think the research tiers should be swapped. With the theme Spaced Out, space research seems like it should be (and is) more accessible than radiation. In my opinion, radiation should only be available when you land on the third planet with uranium. Also, make the satellite guaranteed for all starts. It seems arbitrary that some maps don't generate it. 

Ultimately, I think if these changes were implemented we'd have a greater incentive / more rewards for exploring not only space, but the other planets and their POI's / new resources- instead of just ranching dreckos and shinebugs to spam research and be done with it.

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Space research:

Orbital research station animation is cool, I would not like to loose it. 

The current status is perfectly ok but if to change it -

I think the idea with databanks is good. Dups collect databanks by: exploring the space, every new celestial body discovered (by telescope, landing on a planet, etc.) awards some databanks. One can still use orbital flight to collect databanks but it will yield diminishing results. And then there is another building that converts the databanks into orbital research points. We have already this building - the space research station (the old one).

Nuclear research:

I like the old design station and the mechanic is ok. It can be split in two parts - nuclear research with old building (the green one) and material research with the new station. So you do all basic things with the new station and when it is high tier/nuclear only related, it can be done with old one. 

Again it is not critical and may not require any changes to the current model.

Now that the conveyor chute moved to the right place (not requiring either nuclear or space research) there are no major drawbacks to focus on.

 

 

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So far it seems to me like research starts out too slow and then ends up way, way too fast, yet even when fast still feels like a chore.

Early on, there's just a few too many critical researches to do to make a stable colony. I think Basic Farming, Employment, and Interior Decor should all come pre-researched along with specifically Mess Tables, but not the Crafting Station.
This would free up starting research choices a lot as you would no longer always start with going Basic Farming into Meal Preparation.

In the "midgame", I think research is mostly sane as you need 2 researchers for max efficiency, and the supercomputer is very well-designed for needing water and power. It can get a little tedious at times though to wait on things while other dupes have to do digging or go idle.

Later on is where the trouble starts. Using radbolts for research sounds cool on paper, but in practice it's a pain to set up and feels very forced when you need it not just for radiation stuff, but also things like solar panels (I suspect Klei identified that solar rushing was a cheese strategy, so they used it as an opportunity to force everyone's colonies to do radiation stuff). And then once you've got it running okay with flipping a switch twice a cycle or so to refill manually...you find out that you barely need any radbolts to power through everything.

Orbital research is an interesting gimmick also on paper, but just stupid in practice.

It would be more interesting if it more resembled how real-world orbital research happens, which involves bringing up various materials to see how they behave in freefall.
Perhaps that'd be better for using radbolts too, if you had to zap various common materials. Of course, it'd also need to use more radbolts, and to be less needed for research that's unrelated to radiation.
Hell, maybe the more basic research stations should have optional material fulfillment to go faster, so dupes who aren't the researcher themselves have something interesting to do.

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3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Early on, there's just a few too many critical researches to do to make a stable colony. I think Basic Farming, Employment, and Interior Decor should all come pre-researched along with specifically Mess Tables, but not the Crafting Station.
This would free up starting research choices a lot as you would no longer always start with going Basic Farming into Meal Preparation.

With that you might as well give yourself all the basic research done. It's basic research. Without it, you would have to delay your research (something which you begin doing at the start of the game).

3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Later on is where the trouble starts. Using radbolts for research sounds cool on paper, but in practice it's a pain to set up and feels very forced when you need it not just for radiation stuff, but also things like solar panels (I suspect Klei identified that solar rushing was a cheese strategy, so they used it as an opportunity to force everyone's colonies to do radiation stuff). And then once you've got it running okay with flipping a switch twice a cycle or so to refill manually...you find out that you barely need any radbolts to power through everything.

It does seem like you don't like research in general, but that's off topic. As @pether said:

On 5/26/2021 at 4:19 PM, pether said:

In vanilla I didn't like that research was just to be done early game, unlock everything before cycle 20, never use it for another 200 cycles because it is too advanced. After researching a few most important techs, you stopped pay attention, just clicked random techs in the tech tree because whatever.

 

It makes you use the new systems and stop rushing research.

 

3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

(I suspect Klei identified that solar rushing was a cheese strategy, so they used it as an opportunity to force everyone's colonies to do radiation stuff). 

This is one of two points which I agree with you. To me, I would move the solar panels and glass forge to another research, which wouldn't be locked behind materials science research. I would also increase their cost (maybe make them use plastic as well).

3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

And then once you've got it running okay with flipping a switch twice a cycle or so to refill manually...you find out that you barely need any radbolts to power through everything.

I also agree with this. I would increase materials science research costs or make radbolts harder to produce.

3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Orbital research is an interesting gimmick also on paper, but just stupid in practice.

It would be more interesting if it more resembled how real-world orbital research happens, which involves bringing up various materials to see how they behave in freefall.
Perhaps that'd be better for using radbolts too, if you had to zap various common materials. Of course, it'd also need to use more radbolts, and to be less needed for research that's unrelated to radiation.

 

Have you not realized that your "solution" might be worse than the actual system? 

If your "solution" was implemented, people would have to see the wiki to do research (like with the old rockets).

3 hours ago, Nebbie said:

Orbital research is an interesting gimmick also on paper, but just stupid in practice.

It would be more interesting if it more resembled how real-world orbital research happens, which involves bringing up various materials to see how they behave in freefall.

I don't think that you realized that, with the rockets we have, this solution wouldn't work. I like the Orbital Research, it made you actually use the rockets, unlike the base game.

 

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