Research system - Your opinion ?

[SakuraKoi]

Even though Research now requires another resource (access to space) and in Spaced Out, yet another (Radiation), I always thought that Research was rather mundane. It'd be far better to decrease the water and dirt requirements and replace them intelligently with related resources like metals, liquids &c. Personally I'd favor that and it'd be simple to implement but I hazard to guess and say that not everyone might like it.

On 5/26/2021 at 6:50 PM, Yunru said:

Research queue pls. 

I suppose selecting a research chain ain't enough since unlike e.g in Civilization, there are not just 4-5 and intertwined paths but... far more paths (especially early on) which are far less intertwined.

[crbd115]

8 hours ago, SakuraKoi said:

Even though Research now requires another resource (access to space) and in Spaced Out, yet another (Radiation), I always thought that Research was rather mundane. It'd be far better to decrease the water and dirt requirements and replace them intelligently with related resources like metals, liquids &c. Personally I'd favor that and it'd be simple to implement but I hazard to guess and say that not everyone might like it.

I fully agree with this. I think there's a mod that does something similar but not something I have messed with myself. Having research consume the associated resource type would make a lot more sense then just dirt.

The water on the computer is supposed to be coolant but since they didn't design it with plumbing I assume the reason they consume the water rather then simply outputting it as hotter water is to avoid using the same water bottle over and over and having it heat up into steam. I do think it would make more sense for it to be piped in and out similar to the metal refinery. Since plumbing only has a basic research requirement this should be possible.

[PhailRaptor]

I don't remember if it was this thread or a different one, but someone made the connection that Orbital Research should be tied into exploration of space, and I like that idea.

Keep the new Orbital Lab as an infinite source.

Additionally, bring back the Virtual Planetarium and the Databanks.  Each empty space tile revealed by the Telescope and the...  science rocket module whose name escapes me at the moment...  can generate:

• 1 Databank for every empty Space tile
• 3 Databanks for discovering a Space PoI (fields, gas clouds, etc)
• 5 Databanks for discovering a planetoid
• rocket module can collect an additional 3/5 Databanks for being in a Space PoI or in orbit of a planetoid, respectively

Adjust the rate of Databanks to Orbital Research, and the Orbital Research cost of techs as needed.  Splitting Orbital Research into 2 sources (Orbital Lab at the cost of plastic, Databanks from Telescope and rocket module) gives the player options on how they will pursue the research, with both simple and complex methods of obtaining.  Forces the player to do both if they are going to rush through the research.

 

As a separate commentary...  why does the branch of Research containing all the Automation Wire, Ribbons, and Logic Gates come out of Decor tech?  Shouldn't it emerge from the tech that gives you the Super Computer and Red research?

[pether]

Another issue I see with the research is the size of the tech tree. I must zoom out to the point I can't read anything so I could see anything, and when I am on a closer zoom I have to drag the tree to find the tech I am looking for...

Not sure what to do with it... Maybe switching tree orientation from vertical to horizontal would help? Like making it a tree, starting from bottom and growing upwards... Maybe that would help. But I think not much and it would require massive re-design, maybe reduce number of unlocked buildings that are shown by default, maybe some bigger changes, causing major balance shifts... 

I got a feeling that having more deep tree, but less wide would help somehow... but on the other hand current width has nice logical explanation... 

I don't know what they could do with it to make the tree look better...

[Hellshound38]

I think its ok until Space research. Which is not much fun.

Two additions would make it (and space tech in general) much better.

1. Either the ability to queue research, or the ability to randomly select another research. 

2. Space stations a bit larger then the spacefarer module. To make a less annoying livable space for my researcher.

[babba]

On 6/2/2021 at 12:23 AM, pether said:

Another issue I see with the research is the size of the tech tree. I must zoom out to the point I can't read anything so I could see anything, and when I am on a closer zoom I have to drag the tree to find the tech I am looking for...

Not sure what to do with it... Maybe switching tree orientation from vertical to horizontal would help? Like making it a tree, starting from bottom and growing upwards... Maybe that would help. But I think not much and it would require massive re-design, maybe reduce number of unlocked buildings that are shown by default, maybe some bigger changes, causing major balance shifts... 

I got a feeling that having more deep tree, but less wide would help somehow... but on the other hand current width has nice logical explanation... 

I don't know what they could do with it to make the tree look better...

Perhaps a kind of condensed tree view could be available as option, where the research tree only shows the skill name and is compressed to fit in to 1 screen ?

That could be the advanced view for experienced players and it can be toggled on/off

[pether]

8 minutes ago, babba said:

Perhaps a kind of condensed tree view could be available as option, where the research tree only shows the skill name and is compressed to fit in to 1 screen ?

That could be the advanced view for experienced players and it can be toggled on/off

Maybe. That's some solution. I don't know if it is good one... Tbh after 600 hours I still don't remember what is unlocked by what tech.

Maybe this issue has no simple fix and what KLEI would need to do is throw out existing tech tree and design something totally new. Not sure how much time would it cost and if this is worth it though...

[babba]

56 minutes ago, pether said:

Maybe. That's some solution. I don't know if it is good one... Tbh after 600 hours I still don't remember what is unlocked by what tech.

Maybe this issue has no simple fix and what KLEI would need to do is throw out existing tech tree and design something totally new. Not sure how much time would it cost and if this is worth it though...

 

Hovering with the mouse over the skill name could reveal all the skill requirement details and current research status

If they continue working on the game for years, the amount of skills in the overview could double Scroll, scroll, scroll

 

1 hour ago, babba said:

Perhaps a kind of condensed tree view could be available as option, where the research tree only shows the skill name and is compressed to fit in to 1 screen ?

That could be the advanced view for experienced players and it can be toggled on/off

 

[Ceos]

For the most part I think the current system is fun but the biggest flaw for me is that it ends.  I am sure it is not a trivial change but an "infinite" end game sink would make it interesting and give me late game goals. Something like an exponential increasing cost (2k, 4k, 8k) to increase the maximum possible dupe attribute (default max 20-21).

 

Do I need a petroleum boiler? Reactor setup? Well if I want the plastic for 10 dupes to be doing orbital and the power for another 10 rad bolt research (and water... and dirt) I better build big.

 

Oh... and a queue

[NeoDeusMachina]

Personally, I have nothing against the current research system. Not every system in this game has to be over complicated. Is it perfect? nah, the tech tree could probably be tweaked to get a better progression. I would not be surprised to see such changes in the future. The research queue suggestion would be great I think

The research stations themselves I think are fine. The basic and advanced research stations are very easy to use, they require some basic material as input and can be built in your base without too much of a problem.

Orbital research is also fine in my opinion. It is rather simple to put it on a rocket and go into orbit to use it. It does require some micro management, but for a very short period of time until you get the larger spacefarer module that can sustain a dupe for a very long time. That can be prioritized to make things even easier. It is not very difficult to get the plastic needed for all available space research. I think it offers a good introduction to space and forces us to think about our duplicants needs. If it is too much of a hassle to sustain 1 dupe in orbit, then perhaps it is a bad idea to send them on a long journey in space, or to try to colonize another asteroid... Is it "fun"? For me it is. Certainly more "fun" than the basic and advanced research stations. Those basically have nothing special and do not introduce any new concept or systems to the players. Just bring water and dirt, some power and you're good to go! Not much fun in that either, and those have been around for a long time and it has not been too much of an issue.

The materials bay/rad station with the radbolts also offers an introduction to radiation. It allows us to play around with the mechanisms of how to generate and transport radbolts in a relatively "safe" environment. We get access to sources of radiation very early (shinebugs, wheezeworts) and even some for free on the surface. The power requirement might not be straightforward to manage at first, but it is also not difficult to provide 480W or power even for a prolonged period. Using a power shutoff to control when the radbolt generator is on or off goes a long way to avoid draining power if no atomic research is needed and that shutoff can be automated as well.

The overall progression and time for the research could and will probably be tweaked, but I also quite like it. To be honest, most of the time I am researching things not out of necessity, but because I have nothing else to research at the moment. I have completely researched the entire tree in spaced out multiple times, and I never just sat there waiting for a research to be done in order to progress in the game. Some of the late game tech are long to get, but it has never been a bottle neck for any of my colonies.

On the topic of the solar panels and steam turbines being gated behind material research, I see no problem in that. Solar panels offer a huge advantage to a colony in spaced out, and steam turbines are essential components for advanced cooling systems. I have never found myself in a situation where that "gate" was an issue on any of the maps. We might need to accept that spaced out is different than the base games and we might be forced out of our "comfort zone". A lot of ONI players I have seen playing (e.g., on twitch or in youtube videos) have a very "fixed" ways of doing things and have been doing the same builds in the same ways for a long time, building the same systems, following the same colony development etc. Spaced out forces us outside of this thought pattern with the introduction of the new research tree and research stations, and I quite enjoy it. I am not worried though, things will eventually settle and there will be a new equilibrium.