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Discussing the Wicker nerf


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Hello! (´・ω・`)

Just to start, I would like to clarify: I'm not a Wicker main, nor a skilled Wicker player. To be sincere, I started playing her yesterday and already could feel the difference. Also, I think it's very important tounderstand that Wicker never was a balanced character.  Her perks always have been far too strong, giving the player the option of starting farm very late in the game and achieving farture, or, in better words, her perks erased some of the punishments tha game was intended to make you feel.

However, this nerf was a solid hit in the back of her head. Even as unbalanced as she is, the current nerf made the punishments kind of too hard on her. I agree with books being more expesive to make, but allowing her to grow only 10 crops was kind of too little. A basic player would need, AT LEAST, 3 farms: twigs, grass and berries. She now can only grow 10 of whatever farm she's standing upon.

Now that everyone is introduced to the topic, I will suggest what I think would stil be a good nerf, but wouldn't angry so much people or make her """"a lot worse to play""": Instead of growing only 10 crops, I would put 20 or 25 crops. Yes, that's it. If you're playing alone, it's kind of hard to have more than 50 crops of wach type... and even in public servers, I rarely see more than it. So she could still be useful, but not as broken as she was.

What are you ideas on this nerf? How would you change it? Let's discuss!

 ─── ・ 。゚☆: *.☽ .* :☆゚. ───

This lovely art was made by DrWickerbottom, you can se the original source here!

pet3.jpg.4c4bf9dd0bfd18cad2bcce4f8ca3bc07.jpg

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23 minutes ago, Chubbylicious said:

Also, I think it's very important tounderstand that Wicker never was a balanced character.  Her perks always have been far too strong, giving the player the option of starting farm very late in the game and achieving farture, or, in better words, her perks erased some of the punishments tha game was intended to make you feel.

I think it's important to define what "balanced character" means. A character that allows you to do something and erase some punishment is... Almost all of them, really. That's the whole point of character perks. If anything your description of Wickerbottom makes her sound not that strong (even though she is). She can start a farm very late in the game when you're already set and not much challenges you? And that's unbalanced? Winona can also start farms very late in the game and erase some of the punishment from things like catapult defenses, is she unbalanced?

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15 minutes ago, stranger again said:

klei said their working on balancing her in the latest update so you don't have to worry

also that picture is so cute. i love it 

hope you have a wonderful day or night wherever you are in the world 

Thanks, I hope you have a wonderful night too! I'm happy to know how fast klei is being to resolve the issues and bugs that are happening.

 

14 minutes ago, Pixil said:

:wickerbottomthanks:

Thanks for informing me! Does the "select character crashes the server" and "wormwood can now propelly see plant's hapiness" count as solving his crash (he crashed the server when he tended to the plants) issues?

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With the inclusion of the new farming system I would certainly like a rework to how Applied Horticulture operates, not necessarily a straight up nerf, but something that changes the way it operates. If that means adding a rare ingredient to the recipe or limiting the number of uses on plants within a season I will certainly back it. I feel that the changes were a bit harsh, but also a fresh take on how it operates; tbh I got kinda tired of the majority of what she's used for is Applied Horticulture and not her other books, but that's just me.

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7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

I think it's important to define what "balanced character" means. A character that allows you to do something and erase some punishment is... Almost all of them, really. That's the whole point of character perks. If anything your description of Wickerbottom makes her sound not that strong (even though she is). She can start a farm very late in the game when you're already set and not much challenges you? And that's unbalanced? Winona can also start farms very late in the game and erase some of the punishment from things like catapult defenses, is she unbalanced?

I understand your point, but I think that not having to worry about food and programing you time is kind of game breaking. Winona can craft her catapults, which are very strong, but they need to be fueled constantly by a energy source, which will change it's effectivity. Wicker kind of makes a very cheap book, reads it 5 times and makes everything in her screen grow. Winona would be game breaking if you think how you shouldn't have strong defenses in the early game, but more or less... She's kind of Wilson 2.0 (her crafting speed is meh, special type is kind of okay, I guess? A free hit from Charlie is more directed to new players than veteran ones). Now Wicker's downsides can be very easily countered in the expense of extremely overpowered abilities. Her sanity comsunption can be regulated by eating gree mushrooms and catus, both fairly eady to find in the overworld and underworld. Her recipes are cheap, the most difficult one is the tentacle skin one (at least in my opinion). You don't really need to sleep, since you have food items that can make the same effect... And she can obtain BQ hat in the early game, which makes the challenge of being low sanity when you're close to your tentacles or monsters inexistent. This is why I think she's so overpowered while Winona is just a ok character.

 

Sorry for not letting it clear in the post, English is not my native language and I though it wouldn't cause controversy to not go too deep on it. I hope my aswer satifies you! :3

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Five seeds, two papyrus, ten poops are needed to craft one Applied Horticulture book.

This book can only be read by Wickerbottom to take effects.

This book could only be read twice.(Nerf the durability.)

This book could only be read one time per game day.

Wickerbottom must have more than 33 sanity to read this book.

The book takes effects just as before. (Not only 10 plants, but a full screen of plants.)

These are my ideas.

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Old mechanic of growing all crops in radius should be brought back, the crafting cost isn't that much of a deal. The way to keep it from being spammed could be done with a necessary sanity use on reading. The book should be powerful, it's a magic book after all. It's her downside that needs to have more of an impact, but that calls for a character refresh.

8 hours ago, Damlet. said:

This book could only be read one time per game day.

That would make farming grass, twigs and reeds especially as the character impossible.

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In the end Wicker  needs to be nerfed in some way otherwise why bother farming when you can just insta grow berries/stone fruit. Maybe the 10 plant per use is a little too much of a nerf but I'd wish Klei would just stick to their guns and have confidence in their balance decisions I mean at least for more than 1 whole day.

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9 hours ago, Damlet. said:

Five seeds, two papyrus, ten poops are needed to craft one Applied Horticulture book.

This book can only be read by Wickerbottom to take effects.

This book could only be read twice.(Nerf the durability.)

This book could only be read one time per game day.

Wickerbottom must have more than 33 sanity to read this book.

The book takes effects just as before. (Not only 10 plants, but a full screen of plants.)

These are my ideas.

Definitely interesting ideas, however I don't know if the radius maintanence would solve the problem. However, I find the "read only one time per day" mechanic very interesting! I would like to see these changes in the game, at least just as a test.

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I mean, for the wickerbottom book nerf on food related plants and things, would be understandable, but grass, twigs, reeds and trees are not food. For those who likes to do mega-bases and go for hundreds and hundreds of hours in the same world, farming basic resources with the book is the way you save time doing repetitive tasks over and over again. The survivability aspect of the game don't get affect by how much of basic resources you have. And lets be honest, for you get to that point you already mastered the game, you're are just saving your time of basic tasks.

10 hours ago, Damlet. said:

Five seeds, two papyrus, ten poops are needed to craft one Applied Horticulture book.

This book can only be read by Wickerbottom to take effects.

This book could only be read twice.(Nerf the durability.)

This book could only be read one time per game day.

Wickerbottom must have more than 33 sanity to read this book.

The book takes effects just as before. (Not only 10 plants, but a full screen of plants.)

These are my ideas.

 

19 minutes ago, meowswing said:

I would gladly take Damlet's idea over the current 10 plants effect nerf. Hell, maybe even cut her HP and hunger, like costing 15 hp plus 30 hunger per read on top of the sanity deduction.

Just stay the same it was before, but nerf how berries, crops and food plants are affected, you don't need to over complicate it, her book already have its downsides, you still have do deal with a lots of nightmare creatures if you dont have the bone helm. Just nerf the food and that's it. And if klei doesn't want her to mass produce food, they forgot that she has the sleepytimes stories and birds of the world. And BTW mass food production in DST will never be a problem, ppl will always find the easist solution to time-killer tasks.

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Good wickers don't use more than two times  their farming books, they literraly grab thousands of resources in early days and put them in the base, ather that, they grab things to fertilize crops(While keeping her alive) and all this thing is done we read the book grab the resources and keep making progress in the game like, base  items, chests, magic machine and the list goes on.

Wickers was never a OP character, if you wanna have the experience of farming WHY  WOULD PICK A CHARACTER THAT SKIP THIS PART? is like i pick wolfgang and say "oh he's bad to farm" wickers is a character to experience players who know how to use resources to overcome lack of power(like wolfgang who literraly can press F in all bosses and win without problem) 

Klei had so many ways to make her much more harder like

Harder craft, Less Durability, Less Range, Only 50% of growing in farm plants, etc.

I barely do farms with my friends and now i'm being punished for something that i don't even do and i  only  do when i play with a wormwood and i don't think worms main think is bad to have a wicker helping in the farm since takes 10 days to each plant grow.

Wickers was fine and if a nerf was needed this was made in the worst way ever if they keep a nerf so bad like this i'll  myself code a mod to bring the old wicker back because wig was very good but no depth in her now she got a rework who literraly made her better and more fun but wicker only got a nerf? why don't nerf her farm book and making the other better?  like less tentacles but we can choose the spawn direction or at least far away from us? The End Is Nigh give good damage so we could do extra damage in fights? instead of using ONLY TO CHARGE WX(Shame) Sleep Stories faster read to acctuly use in fight against bosses? she had only  one good book and now is gone. Wickers was a character with great potetion in paper but in reallity she had only farm book and maybe The End Is Nigh if you have a WX friend. 

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I think a simple workaround Klei could take is to split the book into 2. A book which affects only plants and crops that can be eaten, that can only affect up to 10, and another different book which affects grass, twigs, reeds and trees, which has no limit, like the old book was. The new book could be called applied forestry or something.

The other possibility is to make the book upgradable, wicker can use the applied horticulture book as an ingredient at the ancient pseudoscience station, where she can get a much stronger book, more similar to the one we had. This would sort of defy all the effort klei is putting into the new farming system, as you could just destroy it with Wickerbottom. I don't like this option personally.

A third option is that the regular book is marginally better, maybe affecting 20 plants per use, or having 10 uses instead of 5.

The option I like the most is a hybrid, the old system for non-edibles(all are affected), and the new limit for edible plants. So reading would affect, for example, all grass plants in an area and at the same time only 10 crops. But I am not sure from a technical point of view if this can be made.

If these where the options, which one would you take?

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"Transplanted plants, that require fertilizing, will have an extra harvest consumed" isn't such a big penalty because it's an opportunity to make finally use of all your hoarded manure / rot.

The problem I have with "Adjusted the recipe" is the fact that you need now 5x seeds per book which are also harder to obtain now. Multiple books are required early on to obtain enough papyrus for the incoming books: Players will need to gather enough seeds before they become able to gather enough reeds to make papyrus to finally enjoy Wickerbottom and her abilities. With the farming update players might also leave less seeds behind and you aren't able to use the birdcage to obtain regular seeds anymore which makes Wickerbottom's life harder again.

About "Affects up to 10 plants": I would recommend to balance this penalty around plants. Casting it on 10x Juicy Berry Bush which take 9 days to grow to obtain 30 Juicy Berries has a way bigger impact than casting it on 10x Berry Bush which take only 3 days to grow to obtain 10 regular berries. Casting it on trees to make them grow to their next stage or back to the first stage on the other hand feels just useless now, considering trees grow rather fast and you can plant as many trees as you want to, making them to grow to their highest stage before you're ready with chopping other trees.

 

I suggest to reduce the amount of required seeds for that book from 5x back to 1x or 2x at max.
Also the limit of how many plants it affects per reading should depend on the plant, e,g,:

  • 8x Juicy Berry Bushes or Stone Fruit Bushes (Stone Fruits should grow straight to their harvestable form or not be affected if they're about to grow to prevent the player from wasting more book usages)
  • 16x Regular Berry Bushes or Cacti
  • 24x Saplings, Grass Tufts, Reeds (and Twiggy Trees but only if they drop twigs upon growing)
  • Infinite amount of Trees (or 40x only but they stop at their highest stage / grow from pinecone to highest stage instantly)

Already grown or withered / not fertilized plants shouldn't affect the number.

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48 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

It's still an amazing tool, I can't believe people are seriously upset about Wicker not being game breakingly op.

And they still haven't done her rework yet. Klei was already scared to touch the big 3 I'm sure this just makes it even scarier for them. I wish people would have more faith in kleis vision rather than being so reactionary to every single change the updates brings.

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10 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

It's still an amazing tool, I can't believe people are seriously upset about Wicker not being game breakingly op.

This is why I tried to be conservative with the nerf. I thought ot was a good idea do nerf her, but only 10 crops was kind of a big hit to her. I don't want plants to grow infinitely, just to her sanity drain feel justified to the effects reading the books make.

13 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

I think a simple workaround Klei could take is to split the book into 2. A book which affects only plants and crops that can be eaten, that can only affect up to 10, and another different book which affects grass, twigs, reeds and trees, which has no limit, like the old book was. The new book could be called applied forestry or something.

The other possibility is to make the book upgradable, wicker can use the applied horticulture book as an ingredient at the ancient pseudoscience station, where she can get a much stronger book, more similar to the one we had. This would sort of defy all the effort klei is putting into the new farming system, as you could just destroy it with Wickerbottom. I don't like this option personally.

A third option is that the regular book is marginally better, maybe affecting 20 plants per use, or having 10 uses instead of 5.

The option I like the most is a hybrid, the old system for non-edibles(all are affected), and the new limit for edible plants. So reading would affect, for example, all grass plants in an area and at the same time only 10 crops. But I am not sure from a technical point of view if this can be made.

If these where the options, which one would you take?

Ooh, those are also interesting ideas. If I could choose, I would choose a mix of the first and third options. Having two books would make wonders to balance, but I still think that growing non-eatable crops infinitely is kind of op. Maybe allowing her to grow 20-25 crops? It would be very interesting!

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Hello!
I agree that Wicker was hit hard, but lets take a moment to look at some of the things wicker is still capable of doing:

  • Using her books Birds of the WorldSleepytime Stories to farm feathers and krampus.
  • Using her book The End is Nigh! on WX to supercharge him.
  • Using her book On Tentacles to make tentacle traps and farm dragonfly , beequeen , walrus, spiders and probably other things.

So, while she was hit hard... she is definitely not weak, far from it. I dare say she is still among the most capable characters.
That said, I agree that  her  Applied Horticulture book is weak right now and that  changes should be made to it... but not in a way that lets her farm food and resources in an ostounding number like she did before. 
She was capable of supplying basic resources and feeding full servers all by herself during early, mid and late game while also being capable of all other things I mentioned.

I have another proposal: make Applied Horticulture have an unique use, but if the problem is the lack of an option to mass produce basic resources while also not messing with the balance of the game at early and mid game... why not make it possible to mass produce those things but make it locked by a late game event?
Say after 1 in game year something happen, like being able to interact with a new boss, mob or part of the map that allows us to somehow mass farm basic resources, maybe the mob/boss interacts with the basic resources in a way that benefits us or maybe it drops an item that we can craft into something that allows for mass basic resource farming. Not only would this solve the problem but possibly also make farming a bit more
exciting.

It's just an ideia, probably a far fetched one, but maybe it'll help somehow.

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1 hour ago, Picklesaurus said:
  • Using her books Birds of the WorldSleepytime Stories to farm feathers and krampus.
  • Using her book The End is Nigh! on WX to supercharge him.
  • Using her book On Tentacles to make tentacle traps and farm dragonfly , beequeen , walrus, spiders and probably other things

I think The End is Nigh is the worst book they had designed. As you said The End is Nigh can (only) be used on WX-87, which means this book has a very limited usage. You can't use this book alone ,and your friend must be WX. However, you can't get anything as return:wilson_cry:.

Sleepytime Stories can be easily replaced by Pan Flute which could be mastered by everyone.

Using On Tentacles fight with beequeen is very useful, but it can also be replaced by winonas catapult.

I know it's unfair to compare every iterm&character with wickerbottom's books. What I want to express is  Applied Horticulture and resource collection is the feature of wickerbottom which makes her very unique. This kind of nerf is too much for this old lady. maybe she need a rework to restore energy.

 

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3 hours ago, ZG17 said:

As you said The End is Nigh can (only) be used on WX-87

Its a (weak and no so useful) weapon to set enemies on fire

3 hours ago, ZG17 said:

Sleepytime Stories can be easily replaced by Pan Flute which could be mastered by everyone

Wasting green gems

3 hours ago, ZG17 said:

Using On Tentacles fight with beequeen is very useful, but it can also be replaced by winonas catapult.

Both are op, one doesnt make the other be less op

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The end is nigh is a very niche book, it does not cover what I think was meant to be its main uses: AOE damage or crowd control, or both. I'd say that out of at least my last 200 times I played Wicker I probably used the book once (WX is not a very popular character on publics, and usually frown by the other players for hoarding the early game gears)

For being the final tier of book, costing a red gem, and not working underground, it should have a combat use or single player use at least.

Spoiler

I'd change that it sets enemies on fire, for a stun effect on enemies in the area: Each time an enemy is struck by its lighting, gets stunned for 4 seconds, and multiple lighting on the same enemy will have diminishing returns. Bosses will not be stunned.

Sleepytime stories is a discount panflute, its a fairly cheap to mass produce and has a wider range than the panflute, at the cost of having a much slower casting time. It's an okay book, not OP and not useless, works well with the birds of the world combo, and can be used during battles under certain circumstances. Seems balanced to me.

The tentacle book is great, it creates a powerful denial area, but it requires tentacle spots which are not that easy to come by, and unless you rush them somehow its not something you would use very early game. Its also much worse than the catapults, since once they start getting hurt its hard to replace them, and the chances of them killing you, or another player by mistake, is always super high. They also do not work against most bosses.

So overall I think her real OP book was always the farming book, but now we should be careful on "how" would it be balanced so its not breaking the game again, but its also good enough to get  grass, reeds, wood and living logs.

Otherwise we'd have to adapt that wicker is no longer a gatherer character, and maybe they should focus her rework into a more "combat mage" or witch character.

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