Now in testing - Reap what you Sow

[Pikapikap]

25 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

You are not telling truth and trying to find reasons to blame klei. If you wanted to make constructive feedback you would not argue with someone for pages.

Making negative comments are not going to help klei

agree,This type of player just wants to shoot Klei.I only hope that klei will not be influenced by this type players, because people who can’t even calm down and engage in meaningful discussions, I don’t think such players’ suggestions will bring substantial or positive effects.

4 minutes ago, stranger again said:

who are you saying that to?hopefully not me

nah bro I'm talking about that person

[Smarf]

1 hour ago, stranger again said:

thats one aggressive comment @Lord Cafemaybe you should calm down?

just because you don't find wicker OP doesn't mean that others will think the same 

also you do need skill to play wolfgang if you told a newbie to play wolfgang they will die 

that just means you're not good at playing wortox because he still (despite him being very OP)needs some skill to play 

Can I ask why do you think wicker is op? I’m open to a nerf/rework to her, but I’m not pleased with the new applied horticulture. 

[viberr]

3 minutes ago, Smarf said:

Can I ask why do you think wicker is op?

well for starters the farms that you can make with her using the applied horticulture book give so much food to the point where food is barely even needed and then theres the end is nigh book which makes another character really OP and then theres the birds of the world book and sleepytime stories which can both be used to make a good krampus farm and then theres on tentacles which can be used to make some really strong farms 

and to top that all of her downsides really aren't that bad.in my opinion she definitely isn't the most OP but she is really OP 

ok your turn.why are you not happy with the new applied horticulture?

[Smarf]

21 minutes ago, stranger again said:

well for starters the farms that you can make with her using the applied horticulture book give so much food to the point where food is barely even needed and then theres the end is nigh book which makes another character really OP and then theres the birds of the world book and sleepytime stories which can both be used to make a good krampus farm and then theres on tentacles which can be used to make some really strong farms 

and to top that all of her downsides really aren't that bad.in my opinion she definitely isn't the most OP but she is really OP 

ok your turn.why are you not happy with the new applied horticulture?

I like mass producing a lot of grass and twigs at once. 
 

Applied horticulture can grow a lot of food, but it’s not effective all year round. I feel like the reward is too good for the recipe. I’d like to see the manure and seeds get changed to more obscure items. If producing a lot of food with a character is considered op, then following that logic wouldn’t Webber and Wendy be op. 
 

The end is neigh is a really good synergy but I wouldn’t consider it op. Speed is the best stat to increase in dst, but it’s most relevant in the early game. While graves do have a 15% chance to drop red or blue gems. You’re relying on rng and nuking your sanity to potentially get a faster start.

I feel like birds of the world and sleepytime stories are way better at producing food than applied horticulture. It works all year round and most of the best recipes require meat. I don’t see what’s wrong with her being able to make a krampus farm. 
 

On tentacles is probably the strongest. The traps you can make with it are nasty. I feel like the rarity and the difficulty of tentacles make the book somewhat balanced. 

[viberr]

2 minutes ago, Smarf said:

then following that logic wouldn’t Webber and Wendy be op. 

yeah they kinda are in terms of getting food

those are some good opinions and i too do agree that applied horticulture should still work on twigs and cut grass like it did in the past(allowing for more than ten at a time)

anyways hope you have a good day or night wherever you are in the world 

[Terrax]

I play with a small group of friends on a private server. There are now only 4 regular players on our server. Our group/server is probably mid tier skill level. We've beaten all the big bads, (well the ones with loot we wanted anyway) and are farming the seasonal giants with ease. We've gotten far enough that we're finally secure and confident enough to start redesigning our home base into a mega-base.

We've found that Don't Starve Together is much more fun when you focus on the Together aspect of the game. We stick together as a group traveling around the map and literally do everything together.

I mention all this because I am concerned that our playstyle will become a lot less fun due to the nerf on Wicker's Applied Horticulture. The main thing that would happen if this change becomes permanent would be changes in the way we gather grass/twigs/reeds.

If this adjustment to Applied Horticulture become permanent we'll need some other way to efficiently gather these basic resources. It would be OK and even maybe rewarding for this method to be difficult to obtain/set up.

I imagine it will be a lot less fun to spend hours picking grass tufts than it is to protect Wicker from her nightmares for a few minutes while she casts the book at our lure plant farm and then move on to fighting bosses/working on our fledgling mega-base.

I think the point of the game is to have fun together and spending my time building the base or fighting intense boss battles is simply more fun than running around manually gathering grass/twigs/reeds.

In the end, it boils down to that I'd rather play Don't Starve Together than Grass Tuft Harvesting Together.

Thanks.

 

*Edit*

I should add that I really like the new farm mechanic outside of what I've said above. It seems much better than what we had in the past.

[OMGkawaiiAngel]

10 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Welcome Back, we now have a nerfed Wicker (which is still subject to more changes) and a whole new farming System and just so your not confused- this isn’t being considered as part of the Return of Them Update stuffs.

Also new Twitch drop for a very pretty Alchemy Engine skin. 

I 'unno if I'll start playin' soon or anythin'. Hmm? They nerfed Wickerbottom? Sorry 'bout that!

[Nikki Darks]

Raise a hand if you've actually tested out the new Wicker instead of angrily making posts on the forums to express your anger over a brain-meltingly OP character getting a nerf? Nobody... Just me? Aight.

To all of you who are still somehow managing to convince yourselves that Wicker's book is useless....

Please go and test it.

She can still grow books faster than anyone else, her book is still cheep.

Normal seeds are free, poop is also plentiful(Beefalo, Werepigs....).

Wicker grows these new crops to full, even if it's only 10 per use.

And Imma just say this right now... If you think SANITY of all things is the thing that brings Wickerbottom to a "balanced" level... Girl, please.

Green caps, Flowers, Clothes, etc, etc, etc... There's SO many beginner friendly ways to regen your sanity in DST it's absurd.

Sleeping as a downside does nothing to change how she plays, at all.

Also, so far the only complaints I've heard about Wicker's nerf are:

-But she can't grow thousands of grass in a second anymore D: D: D: D:
-How am I supposed to grow  a FULL SCREEN OF RESOURCES in a second now!!11??!?!/!?!??

Take a moment to reflect on that, and then try and realize how insane that sounds.

Wicker's book is still VERY good, and so are the rest of her game breaking books.

Calm down please, your OP character getting nerfed isn't gonna ruin dst for you, your over exaggeration of the situation on the other hand.... 

Just might.

[Smarf]

42 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Raise a hand if you've actually tested out the new Wicker instead of angrily making posts on the forums to express your anger over a brain-meltingly OP character getting a nerf? Nobody... Just me? Aight.

To all of you who are still somehow managing to convince yourselves that Wicker's book is useless....

Please go and test it.

She can still grow books faster than anyone else, her book is still cheep.

Normal seeds are free, poop is also plentiful(Beefalo, Werepigs....).

Wicker grows these new crops to full, even if it's only 10 per use.

And Imma just say this right now... If you think SANITY of all things is the thing that brings Wickerbottom to a "balanced" level... Girl, please.

Green caps, Flowers, Clothes, etc, etc, etc... There's SO many beginner friendly ways to regen your sanity in DST it's absurd.

Sleeping as a downside does nothing to change how she plays, at all.

Also, so far the only complaints I've heard about Wicker's nerf are:

-But she can't grow thousands of grass in a second anymore D: D: D: D:
-How am I supposed to grow  a FULL SCREEN OF RESOURCES in a second now!!11??!?!/!?!??

Take a moment to reflect on that, and then try and realize how insane that sounds.

Wicker's book is still VERY good, and so are the rest of her game breaking books.

Calm down please, your OP character getting nerfed isn't gonna ruin dst for you, your over exaggeration of the situation on the other hand.... 

Just might.

This forum is literally made to give feedback. I understand some people are giving pretty emotional takes, but chill out you’re being toxic. 
 

The nerf doesn’t make her book useless, but it is a pretty substantial change. All this update did was make farming for a basic resource more tedious. Idk about you, but I don’t play the game to pick grass.

[Nikki Darks]

Disagreeing is toxic.

Welcome to Klei Forums ladies and gents.

[Mike23Ua]

Uh huh.. and since 2013 Wickers books remains pretty much the same, it’s only now that the new crops came out that Klei decided to change those books.

You probably seem fine with it because you don’t main and likely never had any interest to main Wicker- But personally I don’t see Growing a screen full of Grass as being Anymore OP then Letting Bernie Wreck every shadow in sight for you, or Letting Abigail absolutely destroy an entire seasons worth of Frog Rain.

Some Characters are meant to be easier than others, and for newer players managing sanity still is their biggest problem- I fully invite you to join me in a crusade into 15 different random servers AS WENDY BUILDING SISTURNS.. and Still watch how many people go through the going insane Animation and start dying over- In my experience it’s been Walter players, Woodie Players, Wes Players, Maxwell Players, Wurt Players, Wortox Players & Wickerbottom players who go insane even though I give them Top Hats and everything else they could possibly need- 

I don’t see Wicker’s Grass growing abilities as Anymore OP then carrying a Stack of 20 souls in your inventory to Heal not just yourself but everyone around you.

I don’t know who you actually main, but I bet the Wicker hate steams from the fact that she’s just plain and simply better then your character.

Now personally: I feel like the book nerf was a direct result of the new crops, because until now Klei made no effort at all to feel that they needed changing.

And in my Opinion I think that her Horticulture book should only effect 5 of these huge crops, but had remained unchanged for Grass, Twigs, Reeds, Berry bushes.

I also feel that the book should require some more ingredients that requires Wicker players to go to X location in the game, kill Y mob, for Z book ingredient.

But That could just be me wanting Klei to force players to leave base and actually quest around the game world for the things they need often, rather then just bringing the things to Base and never having to go anywhere else again.

[Mthestarver20]

Amazing.FARMING REWORK

[ZTheNecromancer]

3 minutes ago, Smarf said:

I was talking about how you were a sassy prick throughout the entirety of your comment. It’s pretty annoying how you imply everyone who disagrees without you hasn’t played the beta and is being hysterical. Stop being obtuse. 

I'm fairly certain they were being sarcastic, whether or not you took that personally is up to you. No forum nor its users are perfect. On a separate note, calling someone a "Sassy prick" is against Forum rules. That and you're both being toxic, no point trying to blame the other when you're doin' the same thing but with different wording.

On a separate seperate note, to everyone. It's nearly impossible to make a (Sarcastic) joke during the first few days after a beta drops. Don't make the mistake I did folks.

[Nikki Darks]

I play pretty much every character in the game to test the changes, just so I can have a structured opinion on the changes.

Bernie is a thing every person who doesn't care about Willow's change clings onto.

"But she has Bernie!!11!!!1!"

Let Bernie, with no health regeneration, fight nightmares on his own. He'll die.

He attacks slow, his taunt animation takes out a whole attack to finish. Nope. Bernie is very good when fighting WITH Willow.

Willow is an overall OK character, compared to Wickerbottom. So it's not even comparable.

Let's not pretend like Wicker's ONLY over powered perk is her food book, it was just the book that required the least difficulty/skill to use.

Now Wendy. Wendy is strong, but still not Wicker levels of strong. Klei did their very best to strip Wendy of any downsides in her refresh.

But Wendy still has one downside, and that's being bad at fighting giants/bosses. Abigail can only do so much.

Sisturns require you to stand still, and very closely to them, making you incapable of doing stuff for sanity regen... When you could've eaten green caps or eaten sanity foods.

Also, Wortox is just... Very, very broken. He has no skill expression, nothing, even if you have 0 souls, kill a butterfly or a spider.

You can still eat foods, specifically meaty stews.

But yeah, Wicker's issue is that she does everything, she fights, gathers food, resources, even gets to overcharge WX.

And again, if you don't wanna play the game "to pick grass".... Welcome to survival games, collecting resources.

This is sorta why I think Wicker players act a bit "spoiled". Like yeah, you get to skip an entire part of the game in a second, and now you have to actually play the game?

I just feel like people are blowing the Wicker nerfs out of proportion, she feels more like she's in line with other characters now. I personally like it.

 

13 minutes ago, Smarf said:

I was talking about how you were a sassy prick throughout the entirety of your comment. It’s pretty annoying how you imply everyone who disagrees without you hasn’t played the beta and is being hysterical. Stop being obtuse. 

We stan a strong queen who goes around DIRECTLY calling people pricks on the forums. Yaaasss gurl, you go get iiit.

But yeah, call me names more please.

[minespatch]

1 hour ago, Nikki Darks said:

Raise a hand if you've actually tested out the new Wicker instead of angrily making posts on the forums to express your anger over a brain-meltingly OP character getting a nerf? Nobody... Just me? Aight.

Aye.

It's fun as long as the hounds don't constantly kill me in piles.

[Rinkusan]

2 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

Disagreeing is toxic.

Welcome to Klei Forums ladies and gents.

Disagreeing isn't toxic, though. For the record, I completely share your view of the Horticulture nerf, but your comment was laced with condescending sass and a destructive attempt at lumping every feedback against the Horticulture nerf into the same  "angrily making posts on the forums" crowd. All I'm saying is you could've made those exact same points about Horticulture without the anyone-who-thinks-otherwise-is-insane framing. 

[Refer]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Uh huh.. and since 2013 Wickers books remains pretty much the same, it’s only now that the new crops came out that Klei decided to change those books.

You probably seem fine with it because you don’t main and likely never had any interest to main Wicker- But personally I don’t see Growing a screen full of Grass as being Anymore OP then Letting Bernie Wreck every shadow in sight for you, or Letting Abigail absolutely destroy an entire seasons worth of Frog Rain.

Some Characters are meant to be easier than others, and for newer players managing sanity still is their biggest problem- I fully invite you to join me in a crusade into 15 different random servers AS WENDY BUILDING SISTURNS.. and Still watch how many people go through the going insane Animation and start dying over- In my experience it’s been Walter players, Woodie Players, Wes Players, Maxwell Players, Wurt Players, Wortox Players & Wickerbottom players who go insane even though I give them Top Hats and everything else they could possibly need- 

I don’t see Wicker’s Grass growing abilities as Anymore OP then carrying a Stack of 20 souls in your inventory to Heal not just yourself but everyone around you.

I don’t know who you actually main, but I bet the Wicker hate steams from the fact that she’s just plain and simply better then your character.

Now personally: I feel like the book nerf was a direct result of the new crops, because until now Klei made no effort at all to feel that they needed changing.

And in my Opinion I think that her Horticulture book should only effect 5 of these huge crops, but had remained unchanged for Grass, Twigs, Reeds, Berry bushes.

I also feel that the book should require some more ingredients that requires Wicker players to go to X location in the game, kill Y mob, for Z book ingredient.

But That could just be me wanting Klei to force players to leave base and actually quest around the game world for the things they need often, rather then just bringing the things to Base and never having to go anywhere else again.

Agree with almost everything you said, especially how Wicker isnt really OP compared to other characters, or reworked ones; only thing I don't fully agree with is the last part, infact for wicker you actually need to move: you need to move to get the bushes, the turfs, the saplings, the reeds, the tentacle spots and tons of manure and ferti; last thing i want for wicker is a recipe that forces a gameplay a la wurt, where you need to go out of your way simply to rush a boat and gather kelp, which would also kill her early game momentum.

4 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

I play pretty much every character in the game to test the changes, just so I can have a structured opinion on the changes.

Bernie is a thing every person who doesn't care about Willow's change clings onto.

"But she has Bernie!!11!!!1!"

Let Bernie, with no health regeneration, fight nightmares on his own. He'll die.

He attacks slow, his taunt animation takes out a whole attack to finish. Nope. Bernie is very good when fighting WITH Willow.

Willow is an overall OK character, compared to Wickerbottom. So it's not even comparable.

Let's not pretend like Wicker's ONLY over powered perk is her food book, it was just the book that required the least difficulty/skill to use.

Now Wendy. Wendy is strong, but still not Wicker levels of strong. Klei did their very best to strip Wendy of any downsides in her refresh.

But Wendy still has one downside, and that's being bad at fighting giants/bosses. Abigail can only do so much.

Sisturns require you to stand still, and very closely to them, making you incapable of doing stuff for sanity regen... When you could've eaten green caps or eaten sanity foods.

Also, Wortox is just... Very, very broken. He has no skill expression, nothing, even if you have 0 souls, kill a butterfly or a spider.

Willow is very good at the moment, yes bernie isnt meant to just sit there, but you can use him to fight shadows and as long as he gets the last hit on the shadow you don't regen your sanity, which means easy and fast nightmare farming, which is nice IMO; during fights? that means you can use dark swords and armors with no worries, if anything the fact you are insane means bernie will aid in the fight too, ofc you need to know how to handle few shadows that will aggro him aswell, but that's not really an issue once you realize sewing kit exists.

About Wendy, not trying to be rude or attacking you, but can clearly tell that you either don't rush stuff or didn't play much the new Wendy: not only she can still (luckly) spam farm butterflies and bees, now she has an amazing DPS, against bosses aswell; her -25% dmg penalty? Thats gone as long as you are attacking whos being hit and debuffed by Abby, which sees you having a +15% dmg, plus abigail damage.
Her boss potential? you can clearly take out any giant, and especially df or bee queen, no you cannot afk in a corner and leave all the aggro on your twin to get the job done, but that's for obvious reasons.

I'm not saying they should nerf Wendy and Willow, indeed i love them the way they are, and if anything Willow may use a buff regarding fire synergies. I'm just saying that's too easy to blame wicker whle ignoring what others do bring to the table tho.

[Nikki Darks]

Wendy will have good dps against bosses if Abigail stays alive. WHich against plethora of bosses, she wont't.

For Wendy to get the damage increase, both her and Abigail need to attack the same target/s. Which against bosses, means Abigail is dead.

Even with Bee Queen it isn't as easy to keep her alive. 

This though applies for single player, but even with friends, Abigail will most likely die.

[Jeikku]

14 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Wendy will have good dps against bosses if Abigail stays alive. WHich against plethora of bosses, she wont't.

For Wendy to get the damage increase, both her and Abigail need to attack the same target/s. Which against bosses, means Abigail is dead.

Even with Bee Queen it isn't as easy to keep her alive. 

This though applies for single player, but even with friends, Abigail will most likely die.

As a wendy player who's fought both Bee Queen and Dragonfly multiple times, it's not that hard to keep her alive honestly. With bee queen all you really need is 1 Nightshade Nostrum and 1 Spectral Cure-all and you're set. Even with dragonfly you really only need like 1-2 Cure-alls and 1-2 Nightshade Nostrums and it's a cake-walk.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

23 minutes ago, Nikki Darks said:

Wendy will have good dps against bosses if Abigail stays alive. WHich against plethora of bosses, she wont't.

For Wendy to get the damage increase, both her and Abigail need to attack the same target/s. Which against bosses, means Abigail is dead.

Even with Bee Queen it isn't as easy to keep her alive. 

This though applies for single player, but even with friends, Abigail will most likely die.

if the player has no experience with her but it can be applied for every character

the only bosses i can think right now that kills abi easily are bearger, spiderqueen (with her bonus you still have time to kill 1 or 2 before she dies with no elixirs), treeguards, deerclops, m/goose, toads brothers when they start doing earquakes (a little portion of the fight) and fw if you dont focus his aggro on you

all the others left you a lot of time to heal her and the ones i mentioned are minor bosses that doesnt take much longer than for wilson

edit: shadow rook and, i guess, knight decimates her too. i didnt try fighting shadow bishop with the shield elixir, might work

[Cheeto-Jesus]

10 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

And Imma just say this right now... If you think SANITY of all things is the thing that brings Wickerbottom to a "balanced" level... Girl, please.

Mm, sanity was never the issue fam

9 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

Now Wendy. Wendy is strong, but still not Wicker levels of strong. Klei did their very best to strip Wendy of any downsides in her refresh.

But Wendy still has one downside, and that's being bad at fighting giants/bosses. Abigail can only do so much.

Wendy actually is one of the strongest characters around now, if the player knows how to use her effectively; boss rushing Bee Queen can be done (not simply, but more easily prepped than with Wolfgang; still a very large skill curve), heals can come easier in the form of butterflies, and bosses that need fighting generally don't get much harder with 33% longer fighting time. That's also assuming that you're not taking abigail out, which I haven't done yet (not enough hours in Wendy) but is possible. The strength is not quite Wolfgang level in most cases, but Wendy has her own niche and holds up as a lot more interesting a character than Wickerbottom for the most part. Moreover, their niches don't overlap either, which makes for fun basebuilding if everyone's on voice. (If I'm on pubs I'm usually the Maxwell chopping trees for everyone before bouncing, so I wouldn't know.)

9 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

And again, if you don't wanna play the game "to pick grass".... Welcome to survival games, collecting resources.

This is sorta why I think Wicker players act a bit "spoiled". Like yeah, you get to skip an entire part of the game in a second, and now you have to actually play the game?

Yeah, the rush of harvesting grass through my own mechanisms seemed fun to me. Kinda like discovering and harnessing capitalism in a game of survival. I'd totally get it that you like to do it legitly though. Nothing against that myself. It's just more personal preference that I don't want to grind for these parts, especially when things are set up so that I can jump that hurdle already.

9 hours ago, Nikki Darks said:

I just feel like people are blowing the Wicker nerfs out of proportion, she feels more like she's in line with other characters now. I personally like it.

She is more in line now, and I agree with that; I do think that the nerf was too harsh still. Two sides of opinion basically, I respect that.

 

 

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok so to lessen flame wars between the two sides let me try and recap things:

• The majority of people seem alright with the 10 plant nerf for Wickerbottom.
• There is a vocal minority on how the book nerf would disturb their imbalanced approach to game resource harvesting.
• Both sides enjoy their own playstyles, and would like to have the game aligned to their own philosophy of playing. 

Peace, guys. I've said enough over here (and will stop commenting), but I don't want to see everyone turn sour because of differing opinions or name-calling/belittling. I trust that Klei would make a good judgement call here, because they have heard a fair bit from their fan base. They're good people, and they'll figure some mechanic that can (hopefully) satisfy preferences on both sides.

 

I mean, if large-scale book reads stop working, there's always (future) mods that re-enable that feature again. It'll not feel as legit so I might just accept whatever changes come my way, but that's a fallback for those on here who'd still like that lureplant farming option available. Like I said, it's all about gaming preferences; if it harms no one, I think it's fine to not gatekeep on how anyone in particular should enjoy the game. Stay mellow my people

[Falkenpelz]

Maybe we Wicker mains should calm down a bit and wait for the update. Yes, I'm not a fan of the nerf either, but I guess we can make a couple more books and stack some cacti for sanity and then still grow our megafarms with a couple more readings.

What I'm curious about is how the radius of the books will work with 10 plants. I imagine it could be annoying if your standing a bit too far left and therefore grow half of your trees instead of the bushes.

(And let's btw not forget to appreciate that Klei is giving us free mostly supercool updates since years - I'll probably get over the nerf as soon as I finally get to see a Wicker animated short.)

[Refer]

10 minutes ago, Cheeto-Jesus said:

 

Wendy actually is one of the strongest characters around now, if the player knows how to use her effectively; boss rushing Bee Queen can be done (not simply, but more easily prepped than with Wolfgang; still a very large skill curve), heals can come easier in the form of butterflies, and bosses that need fighting generally don't get much harder with 33% longer fighting time. That's also assuming that you're not taking abigail out, which I haven't done yet (not enough hours in Wendy) but is possible. The strength is not quite Wolfgang level in most cases, but Wendy has her own niche and holds up as a lot more interesting a character than Wickerbottom for the most part. Moreover, their niches don't overlap either, which makes for fun basebuilding if everyone's on voice. (If I'm on pubs I'm usually the Maxwell chopping trees for everyone before bouncing, so I wouldn't know.)

 

That's very important cause it shows  how even "low tier characters" are very strong and on par with "SSSSSS Tiers", and how useful you can be and focus on niche and unique playstyles, which is IMO an awesome thing; I mean, all the content can  be done with Wes, does that mean every other character needs a nerf? Not really, however for some reason people always cater their nerfhammers towards WX, Wolf and Wicker, may it be cause thats the OG trio back from the roots, or cause they synergize very well together, still doesnt make much sense.
If "powercreep" is seen as an issue, then i think that buffing the world and adding harder content rather than nerfing the survivors is the way to go.

[Pig Princess]

Hello everyone! I would like to speak out what I think about new farming mechanic, recent bunnymen and Wickerbottom nerfs, and possible tweaks instead of nerfs.

Mechanic of farming. Yesterday I tested it and liked a lot; in comparison to old farm system new one is better in a following ways:

1. Low cost of initial setup: previously player needed insane amount of grass and manure to achieve somewhat relevant rate of crops production for eating and seasoning (situation was bad to such an extent, that even for Wurt it was a death trap, and it was better to rely on Fist full of jam, cacti and ratatouille playing her at least during first winter, then - stone fruit, but farms remained inefficient in any stage of the game); now one can create 36 places for seeds for much smaller and reasonable cost. That makes lifes of Warly and Wurt a lot easier: since that change Warly can obtain pepper and onion in the first season with much better chance (seriously, in one world it was day 200+ when I obtained my first onion, and day 100+ - first pepper, even though I had 15+ farms and sunk a lot of time in that activity), and wurt can spend less time to obtain ingredients for merm befriending and keeping King of the merms alive. Big thank you for that, Klei!

2. New system encourages skill of the player a lot more, than old one, and I especially appreciate the fact, that you should use strategic planning a lot more, after all in this game good strategy always greatly increased chances of success, and I am happy to see, that game continues to develop in this direction. With good strategy you don't need to babysit you plants, and reward is massive (I was able to grow around 35 of each - onion, pepper and garlic - during one Autumn harvest and it really is enough for Warly to spice up all dishes he needs to fight bosses and maybe even ruins clearing).

3. Time sink in the form of feeding 66% of you harvest to the bird is removed - this one I like the most. This is also good news for those who likes to play lights out from time to time, since one doesn't need to rely on the bird to multiply specific seeds.

4. New system helps to save space and picking time. In my old worlds I managed to build around 65 farm plots within ice flingomatic range, now I can place seeds much closer to each other. Moreover, now these farms are worth to build and are relevant if you have good plan for this, and before update I built them only because i wanted to test particular part of content from "Feast and Famine" mod; but even though modders did amazing job and buffed farms in a lot of interesting ways, farms were not really worth it bacause of space they took and slow picking animation for single crop harvest.

5. Giant crops allow player to "store" veggies and specific seed during a long period of time and and get fresh ones on demand; moreover, I like the fact, that even if giant crop spoils completely, it is possible to keep at least specific seeds. It makes sence in terms of logic, and is convenient and interesting reward.

However, there are aspects of new system, which I would like to adjust a bit.

1. I would like to be able to know, how much time crop can survive on the vine before it spoils. Yes, eventually people will put this information on wiki, but proper instrument already exists in game: plant registry. Why can't it contain information about spoilage, if player researched this stage of growth of the plant?

2. Hoe and luxury hoe should have more uses. Right now it takes around 1/3 of durability of luxury hoe (36/100 uses) to plow a farm plot, created by using a single Garden Rigamajig, and this is with perfect use; but usually player uses more hoe durability, because when two places for seeds lack space between them, one overrides the other; I usually use around 50% of the luxury hoe, and a lot of players would need even more uses, since not everyone had almost all achievements in Gorge event, like me. If hoe and luxury variant had 100 and 400 durability, it would be much more convenient; I'm fine with proportionally increased cost of that items, if that is the problem.

3. I think, Wormwood compost wrap should add +4 to each type of fertilizer (when I last played, it was +2 each, equivalent to 2 pieces of rot, which are part of this recipe), while used on a tile, because right now it is a waste of resouses. Why would one make it as a fertilizer, and spent rot, manure and nitre, while the same amount of rot can do exactly the same job, but player would have extra resouses left? I also think it would be interesting, if Wormwood could change definition of "tile", on which check for plant family and nutritients consumption occurs. Change it's size, shape and possible planting density, and change all of that separately for any plant need and even nutritient type? This could buff him in a creative way, depending on the restrictions of unique power.

4. Please, make collision box of giant crops smaller or even remove! It's just seems like inconvenience in harvest for me, and, I believe, not only for me.

5. Minor ussue: if player has researched giant crop already, it's not possible to change picture in the plant registry back to normal, grown one. Just cosmetic preference of mine, but still, this function exists, but doesn't work.

 

Now let's talk about bunnymen. I consider old bunnymen farm system as overpowered, and, moreover, boring, so I agree, that they needed to be changed. But changed in a smart way, not just nerfed. I saw 2 problems with bunnymen before recently:

1. Bunnymen farm was simply too strong in terms of amount and variety of food (1 large meat + 2 full value veggies per bunny, every day and year round), that players didn't need other food sources at all. In single player that was ok, because caves were much darker, bunnymen hutches were located in more dangerous and remote places, and their amount wasn't so big. But in dst we have entire villages, located in the starter biomes, and bunnymen even tolerate things like ham/bat bat, pig skin etc. in players's inventory.

2. Bunnymen farm is repetitive, and self-locked: every day same process of civil war between bunnies occurs, and their loot is used only to do 2 things - produce pierogie and more bunny hutches. Because no one really uses bunny puffs as a currency in a trade with pig king, and the other use for them is fur roll. Which is nice for Wormwood/Walter, but even there there is stronger competitor - tent. And other than that, loot from bunnymen is used to produce more bunnymen.

If the goal is to encourage player for finding different food sources and create comparable different stategies of survival, here is what I suggest:

1. Leave 25%/75% chance to get puff/large meat accordingly, remove carrots from the loot table entirely, but give players another ways to acquire carrots and multiply bunnies (including usage of diffent resouses, not bunnymen-related). For example, let players to cook different carrot-related dishes (like carrot cake) and trade with bunnies. Recipe for, let's say, carrot cake, could include carrot and 2 sweeteners (this way it wouldn't block pierogie, and use reasonable amount of carrots), make it give 37.5-50 hunger to the eater, and 3-4 carrots from bunny in return for such gift (even if gift is made by Webber of Wortox). This way Wurt players gain good hunger-wise vegetarian recipe, players are encouraged to use honey farms (variety of food souces) and actively seeking this profitable synergy, and it allows to befriend bunnymen for a lot longer time (right now players can do this with carrot/cooked carrot only, am I right?), so they not only meat shields, but rather friends and long lasting bodyguards. Also it would allow to befriend merms for longer time, since recipe is non-meaty. Recipe could be adjusted (even exclude carrot, but contain another resource, so players indirectly trade one for the carrots), but the idea stays the same: use different food source and come up with a creative strategies, and you will be rewarded. 

2. Give players yet another option: allow befriended bunnymen to give player carrots periodically, or spawn and show player carrots, similarly to Hamlet pigs/pipspooks (and remove carrot as possible drop upon bunnyman death). This is not very creative, but still more so, than mob X civil war/genocide via catapults. This option should give player more carrots in the end, than was used to befriend bunnyman, but require some behaviour strategy. It could even co-exist with the first suggested option, in that case it is important to do 2 options comparable, but taking into account difficulty of pulling off.

That way players who don't want to farm would still have comparable options, not better or worse, but just different, involving different playstyle and resources.

And regarding Wickerbottom: I think she should keep her "terraforming" ability and farm inedible resources, such as grass/twigs/trees/reeds, maybe clusters of cacti (despite being edible) if one wants to, like before. I think she needs more interesting drawbacks to deal with, rather than weaker upsides, because at this rate she is in danger of becoming wilson without a beard, but with a backpack after the first minute in the game. I hope her rework will do the job. Also I suggest to make recipe of the Applied horticulture able to use specific seeds, not only generic (because this increases versatility, and there are less sources of generic seeds right now, than before). And I think, she should be able to grow giant crops with Applied horticulture, if soil has enough nutritients, watered enough, family requirement is met and plants are happy. Because why not, if player already nows mechanic well enough, not just skips it?

About farming in general: would be also convenient, if players could create/relocate/substitute sources of fresh water, because if one lives far away from ponds, or just in caves, and doesn't want to sacrifice 1-4 stacks of ice per full filling watering can, it is really irritating to run back and forth.

As a conclusion, I would like to share picture of my farming success as one who played Warly a lot:

[Sapientis]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:39 PM, Lord Cafe said:

Cheating? how a character that can't sleep and always have to keep in mind health food and sanity to keep her good and only had one good book to make plants grow and other that only work in WX is cheating? cus tentacle trap is so boring and annoying to make that would be better to JUST NERF THE TENTACLES instead of literraly DESTROYING her unique skill.

Wolfgang takes ZERO SKILL to play his is the unique character in the WHOLE GAME that walk faster enough in his might form that can dodge even DF in rage mod and deals double damage without any downside, you only need to eat when you gonna fight and he has so much sanity that he can easily beat deerclops without loosing more than 100 sanity better than wig that ALWAYS has to fight against shadow creature in boss fights because she don't have high sanity and insane hard crafts that don't help at all in the game,  i only use wicker farming book two or three times by season but since it grows everthing i don't need  to spam a lot but now? i'm gonna have to spend almost 10 days colleting resources to spam her power bebfore winter to get LESS than i would get with her normal state and guess what? since i waste ALL MY TIME to make her power viable i don't have any usefull items in my base.

This update is only to drag the game more, wicker was never OP is like people who say "Wortox is op" and always when you say "Can you heal me?" they reply "i don't have souls" and their are insane and without HP, 90% of the people who say wicker is easy and OP can't barely do anything usefull with her and this is true for wortox if klei is balancing the game around characters not being high reward so let's nerf WENDY, WORTOX, WOLFGANG, WIG, WOODIE(He cut trees to fast is op), MAXWELL(idle simulator and always get thousands of resources) and make all characters bee like. "You have this power but is so useless that you gonna play like a normal character without power".

Balanced character are characters that have unique powers but they have downsides that they have to deal, i would rather have a hard craft to her farm book instead of a book that barely do anything usefull now.

This update is great but the farming process don't worth the effort and wicker nerfs is unecessary just make the power don't affect the new crop since the devs want a farming simulator experience to their crops is just that, people who like farming will grow their plants and people who don't like farming are gonna grab a bunch of berries and make them grow with her book or let them grow normaly, balancing a game just because ONE SIDE of the comunity like to farm is not fair, is like to say "we gonna nerf all giants because the players who like farming can't deal with the giants" or "we gonna increase the health and dificulty of any mob because players who like fight aren't getting good battles". 

First off, I literally said not to worry and you rage out like it's the end of the world.

You say she has to worry about sanity and health, but it's not any more true than with any other character. There are characters having much more problems with sanity (Wolfgang, Woodie, Webber, Warly, Walter, Wortox) or with health (Maxwell, Wormwood). Wickerbottom doesn't lose sanity any faster than others and on the contrary she has the largest sanity pool, so it's harder for her to get insane. Yes, she doesn't regain sanity by prototyping the easiest recipes because of her knowledge, but it's also her biggest advantage in the early game. It allows her to have the fastest start and it doesn't matter in later game at all.

Saying she has to worry about her sanity is misleading, most other characters have to do it if they don't want to get insane. The only time she loses sanity because of being Wickerbottom is because the player WILLINGLY uses her books. Well, you better be prepared, or don't use them.

Wickerbottom can be played as no-perk character.

Apart from her meaningful ability of higher tier knowledge which doesn't allow her to regain so much sanity by prototyping, but which also massively speeds up her early game, you could entirely forget her remaining perks. You should usually avoid eating spoiling food, but even if you do the difference is very little and sleeping is often avoided because you have to waste your playtime (sleeping is quite strong, but you still need to be out of combat, you have to have spare food and spare time). What you're left with is beardless Wilson with additional Sanity. This is how minute her drawbacks are.

To the books, then! Pull the lever Wolfgang!

Applied Horticulture works like c_skip(n) command, but even better, as it only affects plants. It's so strong it could be the only book and no one would say Wickerbottom is a weak charter. This book only could sustain all server with ease. Infinite basic resources in no time, infinite food and add Juicy Berry Bushes and you wouldn't need to gather any other fertilizer, one bush gives you almost 60 hunger. Cost? 1.6 Cut Reeds, 0.2 Seed, 0.2 Manure per use. Tell me more about balance.

Sleepytime Stories is a cheaper Pan Flute, but even if its animation is a little slower it might be considered better, because it has twice the range! Cost? 1.6 Cut Reeds, 0.4 Nightmare Fuel per use. Please...

Birds of The World could be the worse book in the arsenal if she didn't have previously mentioned "discount Pan Flute". So you say Kampus Sack is the best in the game inventory expanding chest slot item? It has the most inventory slots, cannot be burnt and has no drawbacks, but it's OK because it has only 1% to be dropped by an enemy you have to summon by killing innocent creatures or 10% from a boss you can defeat only once a year. It means you have to be very lucky or work on it very hard. Well, not exactly, just speed up the process with some Bird-Massacre Simulator with Wickerbottom and you can all get them. Just gather some Cut Reeds.

The End is Nigh! is useless while playing alone, as fire doesn't help much and damage is unnoticeable. It mostly spreads chaos around. But it's Together version of Don't Starve, so just read it all to WX-78. The power of this book lies entirely in WX-78's ability to overload. WX is only any good in ruins, away from ruins he's below average because of how hard it is for him to summon lightning at will. High statistics don't help much if you know how to use armour, the ability of consuming gears doesn't help if you don't visit ruins and only waste surface gears, he gets damaged when wet and he can benefit from double spoilage time of all edible food, but it's not that meaningful. A single read of this book can heal WX-78 to full health (and his max hp is 400), it allows him to ignore darkness, cold and space (he gets own light source, freeze immunity and insane speed) for several days. This book turns average character that excels in clearing ruins to god-tier character. Cost? 1.6 Cut Reeds, 0.2 Red Gem per use.

On Tentacles is the only reason Wickerbottom would ever need Alchemy Engine. This book can be the source of infinite meat, decent weapons and Tentacle Spots which are used to make this very book (perpetuum mobile anyone?). Apart from that it's insane for most raid bosses disgusting farming. It cuts any lesser enemies (including seasonal bosses!) in half in mere seconds and if they manage to make an attack or two you'd just get some meat, weapons and another Spots to make another book which can spawn up to 15 healthy and angry Tentacles. This book costs 8 Cut Reeds and 1 Tentacle Spots but gives 3 Tentacle Spots on average on top of 30 Monster Meat and 8 Tentacle Spikes.

 

"Okay, the books seem to be really powerful, but they use sanity, so they are balanced" some people say, but they can be read without any sanity and they can be read on Lunar Island, making cost in sanity nonexistent.

Wickerbottom is one of the most if not the most versatile and powerful character in the game. People crying over Applied Horticulture nerf are ignorant or blind, because this adjust isn't anything that would make that character weak in any way. Besides adding such strong emotions is not adequate. She is still strong, she is still viable, she is still before her character update and the change was introduced in beta-branch so it's still under some testing. And the change was quite needed with how efficient and dense new farms are. I can understand that this change can affect the way you play or even how much you enjoy playing it, but maybe use Grass Gekkos more, a 3 by 3 pen with 30 Gekkos and Chester or a Bunnyman to scare them can sustain your needs for sure, it can also be used by any character and not only Wickerbottom or Maxwell to read the books. The biggest problem I see is farming rocks, as stone fruits Lureplant farm was easily the best option for them. 

Again, don't lose your temper because of Klei experimenting on their game, constructive feedback is much more viable than emotional rage outs when you don't like the changes. I'm sure Klei will eventually,  be it now or when she gets updated, find the middle ground to still keep Wickerbottom strong and fun while not allowing her to Reap what she hasn't Sown.