Saturnus Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 @Ipsquiggle @klei.ruby @jambell First of all, sorry for tagging everyone I know on the dev team but this is important. There are some serious issues with several of the components in the Banhi automation update that must be redesigned completely or have the functionality expanded. The Timer. The issue is there is no reset input. A timer without a reset input is not really a timer but just an oscillator automation replacement with limited use, and longer on/off times than buffer or filter gates offer. In order for the timer to actually be useful for most things, especially automating space flights and such, it must have a reset input irregardless if that means it needs to be increased in size to two (or even 3) tiles. The Counter. Same as above. No reset input makes it of pretty limited use. It must have a reset input even though that does also mean the building needs to be 3 tiles long (with input at one end, output at the other, and reset input in the middle) with the visual display centered. As it is without a reset input the only real use is as a toggle automation replacement and other tasks that are cyclic. It's not even useful as a binary counter without a reset input. The Conveyor Filter. I think most people would have expected to use the conveyor filter for sorting eggs and such from ranches, or sorting different food types, however it cannot do that in its current state where it can only detect genetic ooze which a lot of things are made of. If it is intentional that you're making a building that can't do what most would expect it to do then good luck explaining that to the community. I'll not pass up the opportunity here to once again encourage you to implement solid conveyor germ and solid conveyor thermo sensors in this upgrade. A solid element conveyor sensor would also be nice but the first two should definitely be implement in the vanilla game to bring the three different piping methods, ie. gas, liquid and solids, on par with each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blash365 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Good points. But i think, that it is still a pretty sizeable update for the team size that was working on it. Thanks for your work, guys.;) P.S.: We expect everything in the DLC to have a reset port! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watermelen671 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 2:03 PM, Saturnus said: The Conveyor Filter. I think most people would have expected to use the conveyor filter for sorting eggs and such from ranches, or sorting different food types, however it cannot do that in its current state where it can only detect genetic ooze which a lot of things are made of. If it is intentional that you're making a building that can't do what most would expect it to do then good luck explaining that to the community. That...kinda sounds like a bug. Shouldn't it just share the same filters as the storage bin? From what it sounds like instead of doing that it's pulling what can be sorted from the element list, which only includes stuff that can be dug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 8 hours ago, watermelen671 said: That...kinda sounds like a bug. Shouldn't it just share the same filters as the storage bin? The current form of solid conveyor filters is a player designed mod which is a hacked variant of the liquid and gas filters. Both of those filters work by testing the item's element. Thus a solid filter sees "Genetic Oooze" since that is the element that makes up biological things such as critter eggs. It isn't a bug -- its a design limitation from re-purposing the hooks used by current filters. Edit: I didn't see that they already added a functioning solid management filter to the game. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't see how it compares. I did use the mod once, so that's what I wrote about above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andz Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 There need to be more devs working on this. It has bigger potential than any games you made before. It's like I am watching Prison Architect problems coming up again. So painful. They also focused on something "exciting" instead of improving the best they had at the time. I guess this is because indie studios don't have a strategic development department or a proper market analysis department. It is a great game but it could be the best. I respect the way you work, but the fact players needed one week to make ice float and you stilll haven't thought about that tells everything. Threads like this are a symptom of a problem in the dev team. Too few members cause people to be responsible for too many tasks at one time and this leads to a lack of overall vision and missing clarity. If you push your DLCs every 3-4 months with one minor cosmetic upgrade for free in between the sales would easily go up by tens of thousands due to the fact the game will never leave the "fresh and recommended" category on steam. If I would have no idea this game existed and were looking for a scifi game or any simulation like game no chance I would try this. It is on page 3 on steam category "simulation" and this is because the updates take too long despite being easily top 10 (quality) of simulation games recently published. There are way inferior games listed on the pages before. I just stopped playing this game because seeing so much potential pains me terribly depite the fact that I love it. I am sorry if this sounds hostile, I am trying to analyzse the situation. I have respect for every hard working professional. It is not your personal fault. I am sure everyone gives thier best. The framework is just set up in a way that does not allow for optimal use of resources. Restructure, refocus, grow, have a vision for greatness. I have 25 years of gaming experience and all I send you is love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmoop Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 8:34 PM, blash365 said: Good points. But i think, that it is still a pretty sizeable update for the team size that was working on it. Thanks for your work, guys.;) P.S.: We expect everything in the DLC to have a reset port! No one says anything bad about the new stuff! Its hard work of course, and well done. But the community has the same goal of making the game better. Without our feedback devs can have only limited data about what they release. Its not a "Klei you screwed" thread, its a "what we feel about the update and what we think can be done better" thread. Its obvious they still work on the update. Hell most stuff still have only the placeholder art. 15 minutes ago, Andz said: There need to be more devs working on this. It has bigger potential than any games you made before. It's like I am watching Prison Architect problems coming up again. So painful. They also focused on something "exciting" instead of improving the best they had at the time. I guess this is because indie studios don't have a strategic development department or a proper market analysis department. It is a great game but it could be the best. I respect the way you work, but the fact players needed one week to make ice float and you stilll haven't thought about that tells everything. Threads like this are a symptom of a problem in the dev team. Too few members cause people to be responsible for too many tasks at one time and this leads to a lack of overall vision and missing clarity. If you push your DLCs every 3-4 months with one minor cosmetic upgrade for free in between the sales would easily go up by tens of thousands due to the fact the game will never leave the "fresh and recommended" category on steam. If I would have no idea this game existed and were looking for a scifi game or any simulation like game no chance I would try this. It is on page 3 on steam category "simulation" and this is because the updates take too long despite being easily top 10 (quality) of simulation games recently published. There are way inferior games listed on the pages before. I just stopped playing this game because seeing so much potential pains me terribly depite the fact that I love it. I am sorry if this sounds hostile, I am trying to analyzse the situation. I have respect for every hard working professional. It is not your personal fault. I am sure everyone gives thier best. The framework is just set up in a way that does not allow for optimal use of resources. Restructure, refocus, grow, have a vision for greatness. I have 25 years of gaming experience and all I send you is love. TBF big teams usually have the problem of missing a central designer and messy code. There really needs to be a balance and just 'pouring hands/money' into a project is not necessary the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 7:34 PM, blash365 said: P.S.: We expect everything in the DLC to have a reset port! Who is this "we" you are talking about? Because it certainly does not include me... 2 hours ago, meepmoop said: TBF big teams usually have the problem of missing a central designer and messy code. There really needs to be a balance and just 'pouring hands/money' into a project is not necessary the problem. Having seen quite a few large software project failures, I think Klei is doing this pretty much at the optimal point: Ignore the unrealistic demands for specific features, optimize just as much as needed and as late as possible, push out enough content so that the game does not become less stable but stays interesting and, above all, never, ever become driven by the loudest complainers. That is a sure road to failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 22, 2020 Author Share Posted February 22, 2020 @Ipsquiggle I'm grateful that you've listened to my suggestions for improvements. I've been thinking a bit more so without further ado let's dive into my thoughts. The Timer. If you're already considering putting a reset input on the timer why not go the full yard and have a start/stop input as well. Take out your phone, start any random stop watch or timer app, what does it have? Yup, it has a start/stop and a reset. The start/stop input would be normally high (green) so without being connected it would work as normal. If the start/stop input is pulled low (red) then the counter is paused until pulled high (green) again. This can account for various interrupts happening in the timed circuit, like farm automation, ranch automation or rocket automation, that delays the progress and would otherwise require a total reset of the timer and start over which is obviously very undesirable when talking automation of stuff (like the ones mentioned) that has a multiple cycle turn run time, often more than 10 cycles. Visually it could be a 2x2 building (although power users like myself would like it to be an automation layer building obviously) with the rough appearance of a stop watch. Note that if this is done then remember to have the reset in the same place as on the memory toggle , ie. off to one side. As a balance measure you could consider it requiring to be powered. Conveyor Valve. Exactly like regular gas and liquid valves but for solids on conveyors to limit flow. Automated Vents. While this is certainly in most cases nice to have it is also overpowered compared to previous options, and it lacks the ability to override the functionality. Is it possible to make it require being powered to be automated? Like the shut off valves not actually consuming power but requiring being connected to a network. Mechanized Airlock. Same as above. Require it to be powered to be automated and otherwise function like a manual airlock if not powered. I hope you consider any of these worthwhile including either now or in the future but I definitely feel the most strongly about the timer. That should have reset port at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxCD Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Damn I agree so much about automated vents and mechanized airlock... I didn't try live the bêta yet, but I really hope gas and liquid vents have a "closed" animation when those are disabled... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureJohny Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I must disagree with you. I think that, automation items should not require power. It introduces instability and potential failure to any shutoff filter. I think removing it from element sensors was move in the right direction and going back on it would be a bad idea. Same thing with airlocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve8 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 On 24.2.2020 at 5:54 AM, OxCD said: I didn't try live the bêta yet, but I really hope gas and liquid vents have a "closed" animation when those are disabled... I think the vents have a mechanical iris that closes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxCD Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 10 hours ago, FutureJohny said: I must disagree with you. I think that, automation items should not require power. It introduces instability and potential failure to any shutoff filter. I think removing it from element sensors was move in the right direction and going back on it would be a bad idea. Same thing with airlocks. So clicking "Power On" on your remote control should turn On your TV even if this one is unplugged from electricity ? This game is all about anticipating potential failure and instability. And managing them. Many sensors and automation gates used into setups are here because IF something goes wrong, then (...) Also Klei is introducing more sensors with this update, including some to measure voltage. So those kind of potential failure could be supervised now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FutureJohny Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 I mostly dislike the inconsistency with other automation machinery or valves. I am using mechanical filters wherever possible anyway. Building around the power requirement in quite an easy. Shutoffs can be either “powered” by disconnected transformer, or if you feel less cheaty, by adding always enabled shutoff as “unfiltered” output powered by the same power grid with loop back before both shotoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, FutureJohny said: Building around the power requirement in quite an easy. Shutoffs can be either “powered” by disconnected transformer, or if you feel less cheaty, by adding always enabled shutoff as “unfiltered” output powered by the same power grid with loop back before both shotoffs. I'm not sure the point I was trying to make came across. I would like there to be a way to turn off the vent from being automated. The reason is that in compact builds with more and more devices having automation ports added we're running out of room to route these wires. If we can in essence turn off the vent by not connecting it to power then that at least gives us tiles back to route automation wires through. On top of that it makes no sense for something to perform a mechanical function without it being powered in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkunkMaster Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 that many automation ports make it even more a nuisance when working with 4bit cables, which lacks a bridge. would be nice if we could just change a setting on buildings / things where we want the automation port to be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilalaunekuh Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 13 hours ago, SkunkMaster said: that many automation ports make it even more a nuisance when working with 4bit cables, which lacks a bridge. Ok after my few cycles of reworking my automation my results are a bit different: - Doing automation wire crossings using 4-bit cables can be cleaner than using just automation wire and bridges. - I reviewed most of my builds (in not just one colony) and couln´t find a spot where a 4bit cable crossing would be an improvement. => I like that ribbons behave like heavy-watt wire for power cables Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Block Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 13 hours ago, SkunkMaster said: that many automation ports make it even more a nuisance when working with 4bit cables, which lacks a bridge. Old logic bridge works with ribbon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbn Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 4 hours ago, Alexander Block said: Old logic bridge works with ribbon. Yes. It works. But I want a ribbon bridge. The ribbon cable connected to the wire bridge looks strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pether Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 Hopefully the graphics for that wouldn't be too complicated, just copy-paste existing bridge 4 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melquiades Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 @Andz The reason you don't see good games on the front page of Steam is because Steam is a trash collector, not a game curator. This game shouldn't have to release an update each month to remain relevant if your interest are in line with this kind of gameplay. @Saturnus I don't bother with complicated automation, but i wholeheartedly agree on the conveyor filter. Even the vents, but rather than making them powered, i would rather have "dumb" vents with no automation so they don't get in the way when i don't need to automate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watermelen671 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 On 2/20/2020 at 2:03 PM, Saturnus said: implement solid conveyor germ and solid conveyor thermo sensors You got your wish mate. 'Grats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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