Wilson Is NOT a HEALER

[Zeklo]

11 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

There just seems to be this common belief that Wicker is better, because they believe she is better. And then actually facts are disregarded.

11 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I don't have the numbers but I know it is a lot more.

...

....Anyway, back in the original forge there was a comparison thread that actually showed the numbers. I don't recall what the result was but it might be looking into.

Winona is very much a safe bet due to the speedy CC of the heal staff which can be applied to Boarrior (while petrification can't). She is by no means a bad healer since she at least has a heal-related perk. The reason Wicker is "better" is because right now the "meta" is based on speed, and you lose time with Winona due to sleeping things more. Petrification, while entirely unneeded makes for excellent CC away from the heal staff, and allows for easier focus fire. As a result you kill things faster and save time. It also acts as a guard break, so you have additional stun-time, and if the team is doing well on health you can always amplify a golem for some sweet sweet nice extra DPS.

[Raspberry Shake]

Oh dear lord this obsession with speed of pubs is going to kill me...

[MasterWolf]

4 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

...

....Anyway, back in the original forge there was a comparison thread that actually showed the numbers. I don't recall what the result was but it might be looking into.

Winona is very much a safe bet due to the speedy CC of the heal staff which can be applied to Boarrior (while petrification can't). She is by no means a bad healer since she at least has a heal-related perk. The reason Wicker is "better" is because right now the "meta" is based on speed, and you lose time with Winona due to sleeping things more. Petrification, while entirely unneeded makes for excellent CC away from the heal staff, and allows for easier focus fire. As a result you kill things faster and save time. It also acts as a guard break, so you have additional stun-time, and if the team is doing well on health you can always amplify a golem for some sweet sweet nice extra DPS.

This is going nowhere, you said the same thing in your previous comment.

[Zeklo]

Just now, MasterWolf said:

This is going nowhere, you said the same thing in your previous comment.

Nice attempt at an evade, except this is my first time commenting.

[MasterWolf]

I meant in the previous comment, the one I was responding from Pizza Time. You said the same thing he said. Sorry for the confusion, I didn't see the name when I replied.

1 hour ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

If you're playing with competent people, they won't be dying AT ALL making bringing Wilson for anything a waste of DPS.

Winona is an ok pick because the heals also provide CC which is good if your team wants to be cautious as she can control the field easily (she will be very strong as as the community unlocks more waves and bosses, I imagine we will be fighting new waves and possibly even new mobs making her an ok pick for those unfamiliar with what lies ahead.)

With staff rapid fire charging Wickers staff is a breeze making her amplified heals much stronger than the basic heals. Even when juggling a tome you can still manage to get an amplify ready for the next heal.

Playing wicker exclusively when I play healer, I've found that juggling between CD reduction and Healing hat is more than enough for casting a good flow of heals.

Now the above things I said are because when I play I spend a good 30 minutes sometimes attempting to find competent people, so I don't have to play Wilson because no one is ever going to die and he has no healing bonuses at all, and I don't play Winona because I don't feel that with my knowledge of the current waves in forge that I need to play safe at all, I need to have strong heals to heal the one, maybe two people taking damage. Especially at the boarrior fight.

Going with as stated at the very top, Wilson is only a good pick if you're playing with people you expect to do bad.

 

6 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

...

....Anyway, back in the original forge there was a comparison thread that actually showed the numbers. I don't recall what the result was but it might be looking into.

Winona is very much a safe bet due to the speedy CC of the heal staff which can be applied to Boarrior (while petrification can't). She is by no means a bad healer since she at least has a heal-related perk. The reason Wicker is "better" is because right now the "meta" is based on speed, and you lose time with Winona due to sleeping things more. Petrification, while entirely unneeded makes for excellent CC away from the heal staff, and allows for easier focus fire. As a result you kill things faster and save time. It also acts as a guard break, so you have additional stun-time, and if the team is doing well on health you can always amplify a golem for some sweet sweet nice extra DPS.

See, it's pretty much the same thing you were going for:

-Winona = safe
-Wicker = speed + better heal
-Petrification = good, not playing it safe

If I saw some actual data, I would change my mind.

Quote

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

-Christopher Hitchens

 

[ItsPizzaTime]

21 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

Not necessarily true, someone can make a mistake or lag. By competent I mean more that I don't have to baby them, and they somewhat know what to do to win.

Im not going to pick Wilson because I expect there to be a person with lag, that is just silly. A characters usefulness being determined by DC or lag is just dumb.

 

21 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

It's not about playing it safe, the healer position is the MOST important position of the game. That person controls where all the characters and the mobs go. I would actually say that wicker is really playing it safe because of the petrification, and I usually pick Maxwell or Wicker, to get the two books when I play with noobs. There should be no need for petrification with a team that actually knows what they are doing.

Weird because I find that using petrification makes everything a LOT easier to control, less people are being hit which means more time for them to do damage. But that's none of what my point was about what makes the best HEALER in forge, thats just an added bonus. Also like you said if theres a Maxwell which there should always be because he is best mage DPS by far hes going to be doing most of the book juggling, not wicker. I think that a team that wants to go fast (not the fastest mind you) will be using petrify a lot to avoid kiting more than they're doing damage. Do i think petrify should be used on every wave to be fast? No I don't.

28 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

You can right away tell the difference with Winona, she heals so much more damage throughout a game. I don't have the numbers but I know it is a lot more. And you also have the 200 health, which means she won't go down as easily as WIcker. Sometimes playing as Wicker can be more detrimental than helpful.

Playing both characters, much more one than the other, Wicker most definitely feels as though she has more powerful heals. I don't have proof either but I notice that tanks are much closer to full HP when i use amplified heals over the often casted winona basic heals. Winona creates more downtime as well so she has no place in speedruns as in those you're not taking advantage of CC at all you're constantly DPS and in that moment you need powerful heals for the off-chance woodie doesn't cancel a boarrior attack.

Regarding the HP difference, a healer should never be getting attacked, ever, so this is pointless to debate. If your team cannot peel mobs off you (especially if a woodie can't do it) you have an incompetent team. Yes mobs do randomly aggro the healer but its your teamates jobs to CC or intercept the mob and save you, that is not your area of expertise. There is no mob in the game that is a threat to any healer if you are playing them correctly, during bosses the healer should never be under threat of death unless your teamates are incompetent and do not understand aggro mechanics or you are way too close to the boss / enemy.

28 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

There just seems to be this common belief that Wicker is better, because they believe she is better. And then actual facts are disregarded.

Well at this point because neither of us have numerical proof we go off of experience. It's just like your belief that wilson / winona is better than wicker. You have no facts, just your experience so I don't even know why you would say this.

38 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I don't have the numbers but I know it is a lot more.

 

38 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

Wilson healer is not as good as Wicker on paper, but if he is used with an experienced team, they can go for more DPS.

Please tell me how a Wilson allows your team to output more DPS than a Wickerbottom.

[Zeklo]

7 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

If I saw some actual data, I would change my mind.

The only resemblance of "data" I have to offer right now is the leaderboard.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forge2018/

There's a reason Winona ain't on it.

Unless you wanna argue that no-one has EVER tried to use Winona for speedruns I think that's conclusive enough.

[fimmatek]

23 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

You can right away tell the difference with Winona, she heals so much more damage throughout a game. I don't have the numbers but I know it is a lot more. And you also have the 200 health, which means she won't go down as easily as WIcker. Sometimes playing as Wicker can be more detrimental than helpful.

There just seems to be this common belief that Wicker is better, because they believe she is better. And then actual facts are disregarded.

Could we please get those actual facts? Without them it sounds quite unreliable.

So, I went to the old post about the "best healer" that @Zeklo was reffering to as well, here you go: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/84470-the-best-healer/

I counted the average hp healt per second by both characters, which are (assuming that those numbers are still actual): Wickerbottom 4,44 or 4,17 while Winona is 3,75 or 3,57 (with the garland or cd tiara respectively). So in the long run, Wickerbottom heals a lot more.

Also, you're saying that in a competent team there is no need for petrification - but then no real need for 200 health either. Wickerbottom's health is enough to survive any kind of attack. And an injured healer should avoid comban anyways.

35 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I mean a team of Wes can beat the Forge, hell I remember people soloing the Forge last year.

Please show me any kind of proof that someone soloed the Forge. I'm pretty sure noone did it, even with two people it's very difficult, only a few teams did that.

[minespatch]

1 minute ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

Please tell me how a Wilson allows your team to output more DPS than a Wickerbottom.

Hey, if people want me to main wicker for mage/healer, then I'll do it. Since I'm a Wilson main, it's more of my comfort zone. I'm thankful when people let me play him in matches.

[ItsPizzaTime]

Just now, minespatch said:

Hey, if people want me to main wicker for mage/healer, then I'll do it. Since I'm a Wilson main, it's more of my comfort zone. I'm thankful when people let me play him in matches.

This has nothing to do with how you feel. They said that wilson allows the team to output more damage if he is a healer and I want to know why they think that.

Please feel free to play Wilson as much as you want all power to you.

[seffard]

Wilson is the brainless straightforward healer. It doesnt take as much skill as Wicker to use it effectively, just rez 'n pray.

[MasterWolf]

57 minutes ago, fimmatek said:

Could we please get those actual facts? Without them it sounds quite unreliable.

So, I went to the old post about the "best healer" that @Zeklo was reffering to as well, here you go: https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/84470-the-best-healer/

I counted the average hp healt per second by both characters, which are (assuming that those numbers are still actual): Wickerbottom 4,44 or 4,17 while Winona is 3,75 or 3,57 (with the garland or cd tiara respectively). So in the long run, Wickerbottom heals a lot more.

Also, you're saying that in a competent team there is no need for petrification - but then no real need for 200 health either. Wickerbottom's health is enough to survive any kind of attack. And an injured healer should avoid comban anyways.

Please show me any kind of proof that someone soloed the Forge. I'm pretty sure noone did it, even with two people it's very difficult, only a few teams did that.

Assuming both wicker and Winona switch between the crystal tiara and woven garland perfectly, and are both wearing the silk armor:
According to RancorSnp, Wicker needs to do exactly 200 damage to activate the boost. So wicker heals 3.75hp/s (72hp (Unboosted spell while using garland)/19.2s cool down) health until she deals 200 damage, then heals for 5hp/s (96hp (boosted spell while using garland)/19.2s cool down).

Winona heals for 4.29hp/s (72hp/16.8s cool down) constantly.

According to @RancorSnp numbers, which are the ones that @Arcwell uses, both Winona and Wicker heal 240 hp every 90 seconds.

Quote

By that we can see that in 90 seconds of time Wickerbottom will theoretically heal heal 240 hp and be almost ready for 4th cast (1 second away from it).  Meanwhile Winona will cast 4 times which surprisingly also gives 240hp healed. This does make it seem like they are even BUT I just picked the time unfortunately, as Wicker is just about to cast heal in 1 second, while Winona still needs to wait 10 seconds before she can cast again.  

-RancornSnp

So potentially, WIcker COULD POTENTIALLY heal more if the user can do the quick fire with the staff.

 

59 minutes ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

Im not going to pick Wilson because I expect there to be a person with lag, that is just silly. A characters usefulness being determined by DC or lag is just dumb.

 

Weird because I find that using petrification makes everything a LOT easier to control, less people are being hit which means more time for them to do damage. But that's none of what my point was about what makes the best HEALER in forge, thats just an added bonus. Also like you said if theres a Maxwell which there should always be because he is best mage DPS by far hes going to be doing most of the book juggling, not wicker. I think that a team that wants to go fast (not the fastest mind you) will be using petrify a lot to avoid kiting more than they're doing damage. Do i think petrify should be used on every wave to be fast? No I don't.

Playing both characters, much more one than the other, Wicker most definitely feels as though she has more powerful heals. I don't have proof either but I notice that tanks are much closer to full HP when i use amplified heals over the often casted winona basic heals. Winona creates more downtime as well so she has no place in speedruns as in those you're not taking advantage of CC at all you're constantly DPS and in that moment you need powerful heals for the off-chance woodie doesn't cancel a boarrior attack.

Regarding the HP difference, a healer should never be getting attacked, ever, so this is pointless to debate. If your team cannot peel mobs off you (especially if a woodie can't do it) you have an incompetent team. Yes mobs do randomly aggro the healer but its your teamates jobs to CC or intercept the mob and save you, that is not your area of expertise. There is no mob in the game that is a threat to any healer if you are playing them correctly, during bosses the healer should never be under threat of death unless your teamates are incompetent and do not understand aggro mechanics or you are way too close to the boss / enemy.

Well at this point because neither of us have numerical proof we go off of experience. It's just like your belief that wilson / winona is better than wicker. You have no facts, just your experience so I don't even know why you would say this.

 

Please tell me how a Wilson allows your team to output more DPS than a Wickerbottom.

That's not what I said at all, you completely twisted what I said.....

There are many ways to go about it, you don't have to do the "meta"

We had some numbers posted now.

Well this conversation is going nowhere> I do not want to debate people about their feelings, I want to actually find some prove that I am right. And I was right.

I said that with me being Wilson healer, the rest of the team can pick more DPS characters.

[Zeklo]

2 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

I said that with me being Wilson healer, the rest of the team can pick more DPS characters.

If you avoid death Wilson brings nothing to the table. Even if you bring a Wilson healer he still brings nothing. Wicker & Winona are better healers outright, and since none of these characters deal extra damage with the heal staff Wicker wins the DPS race because she can use golem. 

EDIT: And you conveniently excluded the part about the heal numbers that states:

EDIT2: Nope, that one was my bad. I didn't catch it in the post.

[MasterWolf]

@Zeklo , can you even read?

I am done arguing with you, you did not respond to anything else I said and just tried to pick my "weakest argument". You need to grow up, everyone has their own opinion, and you cannot be right all the time. Next time, try to argue using facts.

[ItsPizzaTime]

45 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

So potentially, WIcker COULD POTENTIALLY heal more if the user can do the quick fire with the staff.

Ah good to know that they're both close to equal in healing numbers. It's not hard to quickfire with the staff so, I suppose it does come down to her reading books that gives her the advantage.

45 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

Well this conversation is going nowhere> I do not want to debate people about their feelings, I want to actually find some prove that I am right. And I was right.

I think you finally finding the numbers instead of just saying how you feel is good and was very productive. I don't consider any of this based on feelings, rather its based on my experiences. Now the debate is whether the extra hp winona gets is worth sacrificing a petrify tome and the ability to read books. I personally think that petrify is incredibly powerful and outweighs the HP bonus that a healer really doesn't need considering they shouldn't be taking damage at all.

 

45 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I said that with me being Wilson healer, the rest of the team can pick more DPS characters.

You could pick any character capable of healing and your teammates could still pick the same classes, I really don't get the fixation on this character that's sole purpose is to carry people who aren't capable of playing without dying.

[Zeklo]

3 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

@Zeklo , can you even read?

Good gracious my dude. Chill out. I made a mistake I can own up to that. No need to freak over something that can be resolved so easily with non-aggressive communication.

5 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

I am done arguing with you, you did not respond to anything else I said and just tried to pick my "weakest argument". You need to grow up, everyone has their own opinion, and you cannot be right all the time. Next time, try to argue using facts.

I did respond to something else, that which you seemed to have ignored. To my understand when you're referring to "your weakest argument" you mean how I didn't catch apart of your post. In which case you missed the main portion of the comment before I edited it, but I'd like you to clarify because assuming is going to get us no where.

Despite how rude you were I tried to make this as non-passive aggressive as possible, so please try not to read it in such a way.

[MasterWolf]

1 minute ago, ItsPizzaTime said:

Ah good to know that they're both close to equal in healing numbers. It's not hard to quickfire with the staff so, I suppose it does come down to her reading books that gives her the advantage.

I think you finally finding the numbers instead of just saying how you feel is good and was very productive. I don't consider any of this based on feelings, rather its based on my experiences. Now the debate is whether the extra hp winona gets is worth sacrificing a petrify tome and the ability to read books. I personally think that petrify is incredibly powerful and outweighs the HP bonus that a healer really doesn't need considering they shouldn't be taking damage at all.

 

You could pick any character capable of healing and your teammates could still pick the same classes, I really don't get the fixation on this character that's sole purpose is to carry people who aren't capable of playing without dying.

For me, I'm not an expert with the staff, so my quick fire skills are meh.

Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence, but I agree it was nice to finally have some facts. And I thank you for not acting like some other people while debating. For me, it all depends on who I'm playing with. Since I mostly play with randoms, I will usually pick the two book option because I don't trust strangers to know what they are doing. If someone doesn't go Maxwell, I will then pick Winona. I know petrification is useful, but I find it quite boring sometimes, and that's why I stopped playing Maxwell as much (since everyone just expects me to juggle two books). In all honesty, the tanks and Woodie should be the only ones getting damaged, but the unpredictability of randoms is a huge factor in this.

It's just a matter of personal preference. Just like you prefer Wicker for her different spell abilities and heal buff, I prefer Winona for being more reliable and WIlson for revival and overall flexibility. Wilson can play any role, and I don't think any other character can really do that.

[Sinister_Fang]

Both Winona and Wicker are good healers. I think it comes down more to personal preference then anything. Do you want quality (Wickerbottom) or quantity (Winona)? The Forge can be beaten with either of them, so I don't really see the point in arguing over who is better. Even if you do boil it down to raw numbers to find out each of their healing per second, there's still the factor of Wicker having a petrifying tome, and thus more cc. So it will still be based on preference. As far as I'm concerned, both Winona and Wickerbottom are tied as best healers.

[axxel]

10 hours ago, superlucas1231 said:

-What's exactly stopping Bernie and Abigail from grabing aggro away from other players besides their respective characters? Mage Willow's bernie can still eat up some hits from Boarrior while the whole time is attacking the thing, same as Abigail. 

That and Abigail is going to be dead for 90% of the time, so you may as well pick any character that isn't here for any role.

-Wilson healer, as already mentioned, isn't safe - considering how the very moment your reviver/healer dies, it's hard to get back up.

-Wes also has, if I remebered correctly, the 2nd lowest HP in the game. And when he gets aggroed, go luck shaking it off.

At least Winona can make sure Boarrior only gets a handful of hits before he goes night-night - giving reviver more time to rev someone. 

Wicker also can potentially full heal a team if charged, which is definitely more helpful than "lol Abigail is dead again."

 

That's not the point I was talking about. I would claim that a healer is mandatory for success, but Wickerbottom is not. I can claim every blossom staff user can bring the team until the end. 

However, it's OP fault to have a strange thesis (different title and opening post) like granny heals more=Wilson should never heal. Of course I agree the meta, but thats not the thread's initial topic. That's why a single staff user is better than no staff user, even if the numbers are lower.

Did you guys ever played all random where Wickerbottom have a chance not to appear? I menioned earlier that Wicker is not mandatory. It's not that you're doomed if a Wendy have to heal, unless you can prove me otherwise. Same goes for tanks and runners. Yes, teams without Woodie can happen, too!

[ReubuxxInc]

Wilson can heal if he wants to heal. People seem to forget you don't need to play meta or super tryhard to have fun

[maradyne]

Calm thine mammaries.

Wilson is great if you've got a grasp on the mode and you're trying to drag an unknown/less experienced team to victory. "Carrying". If you're the person who knows how to keep your team alive, might as well dedicate to it. And if you're reviving everyone, that's a very noticeable action; people will at least rally around you and more commonly keep you alive, letting you heal and revive more.

Wickerbottom is the opposite; if your team knows what they're doing, knows how to juggle aggro, and knows how to play around numbers, then this is who you want. If not, she's terribad; if there are even one or two team members that can't manage aggro and don't specifically focus on keeping it off of you (and the DPSs, but that's not the point here), using your perk means dying.

 

Winona is, as her general role in the game and the mode implies, a jack of all trades, but a master of none.
Her ability to more rapidly create a sleep and healing zone is useful in games with less experienced players; safe zones save lives...in that kind of game though, you may need both that capability and a quick revive, considering a common lack of aggro management.
The ability remains useful in higher-end games; more heal zones means more healing; more safe zones means a more manageable game for everyone. The downside, of course, is that Wicker ends up outputting more healing, which is more useful to a team that knows what they're doing...as far as we know currently. Remember that there's more to come for this mode.

So there's that.
Winona is the best all-around; fitting for her. Likely the best pick if you don't know what you're getting into.
Wicker is best for hARdCorE teams.
Wilson is best for keeping the clown fiestas in line.

 

...and 100% of what we think now might be utterly useless when the new bosses and items unlock.

[MasterWolf]

8 hours ago, ReubuxxInc said:

Wilson can heal if he wants to heal. People seem to forget you don't need to play meta or super tryhard to have fun

Exactly, if they want to use the inferior WIcker, then they should just go for it and stop spreading misinformation. The most fun I had in the beta was doing an all WIlson run.

[Monkey Cups]

5 hours ago, lifetheuniverse said:

Wilson is best for keeping the clown fiestas in line.

lol clown fiestas...

I'm often the one carrying even the "experienced" tryhards that think they're better than the noobs, so that's an apt description.

I have a rule: if you complain I don't heal you. If I want to play Wilson I will damn well play Wilson and if you don't like it you can get the hell off of my server. I play games to have fun not to show off.

[Zeklo]

48 minutes ago, MasterWolf said:

Exactly, if they want to use the inferior WIcker, then they should just go for it and stop spreading misinformation. The most fun I had in the beta was doing an all WIlson run.

Didn't we literally just go over that Wicker is capabale of dealing out the best heals?

There's nothing wrong with playing a Wilson healer, or anyone who can wield a staff healer. It's not the most efficient, but it's not necessary to be the most efficient.

[FreyaMaluk]

20 hours ago, MasterWolf said:

Assuming both wicker and Winona switch between the crystal tiara and woven garland perfectly, and are both wearing the silk armor:
According to RancorSnp, Wicker needs to do exactly 200 damage to activate the boost. So wicker heals 3.75hp/s (72hp (Unboosted spell while using garland)/19.2s cool down) health until she deals 200 damage, then heals for 5hp/s (96hp (boosted spell while using garland)/19.2s cool down).

Winona heals for 4.29hp/s (72hp/16.8s cool down) constantly.

According to @RancorSnp numbers, which are the ones that @Arcwell uses, both Winona and Wicker heal 240 hp every 90 seconds.

So potentially, WIcker COULD POTENTIALLY heal more if the user can do the quick fire with the staff.

 

That's not what I said at all, you completely twisted what I said.....

There are many ways to go about it, you don't have to do the "meta"

We had some numbers posted now.

Well this conversation is going nowhere> I do not want to debate people about their feelings, I want to actually find some prove that I am right. And I was right.

I said that with me being Wilson healer, the rest of the team can pick more DPS characters.

u are not counting the casting and waiting factor into those numbers.. the higher the casts also the higher the wait... powerful heals are more effective.. and save gathering, waiting, casting time