So, the AETN can, in fact, delete massive amounts of heat

[The Flying Fox]

So, I was tinkering in Debug mode.  (Like I usually do  )  And, I was playing around with a condensing turbine build using an aqua-tuner.  For the heck of it, I slapped an AETN machine next to it separated by a metal tile wall.  Seeing that the aqua tuner's oil bath was hovering around 155C (Due to a thermo-sensor shut-off) I just expected that the AETN would just over-heat, but I thought "Well, maybe I can control how much heat is dumped into the AETN room in a control way so it doesn't."

 

But, apparently, I didn't need too.  No matter how much heat I dumped from the aqua-tuner's oil bath into the AETN, it wouldn't over-heat.  In fact, the temperature of the machine pegged at 124.X  Hmmm...  of course, it came to me then.  Since the AETN is a heating building, it must be actively destroying the heat around it, much like the  Space Heater and the Liquid Tepidizer, but since it's producing negative heat, it actively also suppresses is own over-heating temperature!

 

So, with that in mind, I decided to test just how much heat can an AETN destroy this way?  The answer?  Well, ALOT.

 

More then 10 times what it's rated for.  This single AETN is keeping this aqua tuner cooled all by itself, while it's processing 10Kg/s of PH20 through it and cooling that tank of water.  I've let it run this way for several cycles and it is, in fact, stable.  The better you can focus the heat from the heat source into the AETN, the better it can delete heat this way.  But wait, there's more!  Figuring I should test to see if this worked through a quit/reload, well.. I did that and got something.. unexpected.

 

Upon quiting and reloading the save, I found that the AETN and the hydrogen/oil around it had suddenly dropped to 75C.  Of course, I let it run for a while and.. it stayed that way.  Cooling the oil bath for the aqua tuner even lower then it was before.  I quit/reloaded the save again and it still stuck around 75C, happily deleting the massive amounts of heat generated by the aqua tuner.  After scratching my head for a moment, I realized that the game code must now be only reading the AETN's base over-heat temperature which is 75C, the iron that it's made of adds +50C to it's over-heat temperature.

 

And, if this happens to the AETN machine, I'd imagine it's happening to every heat producing building.  So, even the Electrolyzer who's base over-heating temperature is 75C, is probably actively destroying heat this way once it reaches 74C after a save/reload.  This explains why you can feed the Electrolyzer +90C water and it just won't get any hotter.  It's not entirely because the Electrolyzer is producing 70C H2 and O2, but because the game-code is actively deleting heat in the 4 tiles that the Electrolyzer is occupying, even though the Electrolyzer isn't actually over-heating.  

[Slvrsrfr]

Great analysis. Thanks!

Although I must admit I'm not even sure what I'm looking at entirely, but you explain it well. I'll have to re-read it a couple of times for sure.

[Kabrute]

nice catch, the more exploits we find the sooner klei fix their hacky patch

[The Flying Fox]

10 minutes ago, Slvrsrfr said:

Great analysis. Thanks!

Although I must admit I'm not even sure what I'm looking at entirely, but you explain it well. I'll have to re-read it a couple of times for sure.

For those not in the know, several versions back (When they introduced the Steam Turbine) they added a 'feature' into the game where, if a building like the Space Heater and the Liquid Tepidizer are basically at their over-heating temperature, then some code kicks in to actively destroy heat in the environment that the building is touching. (Along with suppressing what was called their exhaust heat.)  This actively prevents these buildings from being able to super-heat the gas/liquid around them to incredible temperatures.  Clamping the temperature around buildings to what's suppose to be their over-heat temperature.

 

I'm sure it was intended that the clamping be around the combined over-heating temperature but, in fact, it appears that after a save/quit/reload, it's clamping to the building's base temperature instead.  Oops.

[Sevio]

That's a great find! So we can now delete unlimited amounts of heat with aquatuners and we don't even need to sieve polluted water to do it.

(I do hope, however that this, among other finds will draw some attention back to improving the heat system in the game)

[bountygiver]

this is known for a long time already, everything that says heat production produce heats at the 10x rate of what it is stated, same goes for negative heat production buildings like AETN

the save/load supercooling is definitely an exploit though.

[Sevio]

25 minutes ago, bountygiver said:

this is known for a long time already, everything that says heat production produce heats at the 10x rate of what it is stated, same goes for negative heat production buildings like AETN

the save/load supercooling is definitely an exploit though.

It's also known that an Aquatuner can move far more heat than an AETN can destroy so the difference between displayed and actual cooling isn't responsible for this. The code that clamps temperatures to a building's overheat temperatures while it's running is actively destroying far more heat than the AETN should be able to.

[WanderingKid]

4 hours ago, The Flying Fox said:

And, if this happens to the AETN machine, I'd imagine it's happening to every heat producing building.  So, even the Electrolyzer who's base over-heating temperature is 75C, is probably actively destroying heat this way once it reaches 74C after a save/reload.  This explains why you can feed the Electrolyzer +90C water and it just won't get any hotter.  It's not entirely because the Electrolyzer is producing 70C H2 and O2, but because the game-code is actively deleting heat in the 4 tiles that the Electrolyzer is occupying, even though the Electrolyzer isn't actually over-heating.  

Electrolizers balance off at 70C because that's what their set output temperature is.  You can overheat the Electrolizer if you push more heat than it is trying to stabilize into it... for example, run an Electrolizer near an Aquatuner's heater.  The heat destruction for electrolizers are not what's happening in your example (nice find, btw).  That heat destruction is because of set output temperatures, similar to the sieve's destruction.  It's just at a higher setting so you only really get destruction on it if you're nearly boiling the H2O already. 

You can see it the easiest it if you setup a sandbox with insulated abyssalyte pipes and tiles and vacuum out the interior before you run the Electrolizer.  Once the wiring and mass for the electrolizer itself for it catches up, it'll stay at 70C.

[The Flying Fox]

15 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

Electrolizers balance off at 70C because that's what their set output temperature is.  You can overheat the Electrolizer if you push more heat than it is trying to stabilize into it... for example, run an Electrolizer near an Aquatuner's heater.  The heat destruction for electrolizers are not what's happening in your example (nice find, btw).  That heat destruction is because of set output temperatures, similar to the sieve's destruction.  It's just at a higher setting so you only really get destruction on it if you're nearly boiling the H2O already. 

You can see it the easiest it if you setup a sandbox with insulated abyssalyte pipes and tiles and vacuum out the interior before you run the Electrolizer.  Once the wiring and mass for the electrolizer itself for it catches up, it'll stay at 70C.

That is all correct, actually.  I'm not saying that the set output of 70C for both the H2 and O2 isn't destroying some (Or most) of the excess heat.  Just that the temperature clamping is destroying some of it.  After all, the Electrolyzer is storing around 2KGs of water in it, therefore, it isn't unreasonable to assume that the temperature of the Electrolyzer should be impacted by it.

 

However, I just did a test to see if that was the case and it seems the effect isn't as much as I expected.   Using a reasonable setup of feeding water to the electrolyzer using insulated water pipe, the 2KG water contents (In this case, I tested 96C water) in the Electrolyzer doesn't appear to be enough to push it past around 72C (Or there abouts) which is under the clamping temperature.  This was testing using a copper Electrolyzer.  I switched to a gold amalgam unit and had roughly the same result, but now it's bouncing around 74C.  (Which, assuming a save/reload, because of the bug, would then be within the clamping temperature,)  But, it stays there without reloading, so the clamping wouldn't be removing much heat at all and less then what I was thinking.

 

To make sure that it wasn't clamping during the testing, I removed the 3 insulated water pipe segments in the room with 3 radiant pipes.  At that point, the temperature of the gold amalgam Electrolyzer shot up to around 88C.  So, if you decided, for some reason, to feed an Electrolyzer near boiling water with radiant pipes, then yes, some clamping happens but, if you use insulated liquid pipe, it doesn't.  Unless the clamping is happening at a lower temperature but, from what I saw of the AETN, the temperature ramps up quickly to 1-2C below it's over-heat temperature and then quickly just stops rising as the heat clamping appears to kick in.

[Lifegrow]

Why isn't this posted in the bug tracker?

 

[Kabrute]

someone didn't check the bug tracker before posting

 

[Lifegrow]

20 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

someone didn't check the bug tracker before posting

 

Yeah, but it's posted here first... 

Why? It's clearly a coding oversight, so why post it in general forums instead of just reporting it. Makes zero sense.

 

[Kabrute]

 not everyone checks bug report page so I can only guess it was to further raise awareness

[PhailRaptor]

Isn't this the principle behind that Battery cooling unit exploit thing that someone posted a while back?  Where the temperature of the atmosphere around a Battery was being reset to the temperature of the Battery?  I'll see if I can find it...

[Edit] Yep, found it.  The original thread has been archived so it doesn't show in Search anymore:

 

[psusi]

So you are saying they put this bug/hack in to stop you from using a tepidizer to boil water?  What the hell for?  You *should* be able to use it to boil water.  And can't you still do that anyway?  Just use one made of gold and its overheat temp will be high enough so this won't kick in.

 

[FutureJohny]

3 minutes ago, psusi said:

So you are saying they put this bug/hack in to stop you from using a tepidizer to boil water?  What the hell for?  You *should* be able to use it to boil water.  And can't you still do that anyway?  Just use one made of gold and its overheat temp will be high enough so this won't kick in.

 

Back in the day people used tepidizer to boil oil to NG.

[BlueLance]

31 minutes ago, psusi said:

So you are saying they put this bug/hack in to stop you from using a tepidizer to boil water?  What the hell for?  You *should* be able to use it to boil water.  And can't you still do that anyway?  Just use one made of gold and its overheat temp will be high enough so this won't kick in.

 

It has an operational temperature which it seems to turn off at when it reaches it. I never got the thing to boil water

[FIXBUGFIXBUGFIX]

29 minutes ago, FutureJohny said:

Back in the day people used tepidizer to boil oil to NG.

i believe oil boiler is not the only reason. this *feature* was introduced to game with steam turbine.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, FutureJohny said:

Back in the day people used tepidizer to boil oil to NG.

How?  Shouldn't temperature that high cause the tepidizer to overheat and take damage?  Which seems like a much more sane thing to do than have it delete heat from the oil if it is above the max temp.

 

[Saturnus]

15 minutes ago, psusi said:

How?  Shouldn't temperature that high cause the tepidizer to overheat and take damage?  Which seems like a much more sane thing to do than have it delete heat from the oil if it is above the max temp.

Back in the day in the day you only needed to keep the left most tile of the tepidizer below the overheat temperature. So you could have it heat gases with very low thermal conductivity to thousands of degrees in the rightmost two tiles, chlorine and CO2 was typically used, while still not overheating. You'd then place metal tiles above the gases as a boiler plate. You also typically have a tile of naphtha in between the tile and the gases as it a liquid with very low thermal conductivity. It took lots of fiddling to do in a survival game but once you got it working the sense of achievement was immense.

You could also have it heat polluted water from ~40C to ~120C by extremely carefully managing pressure and flow rate past it so that it would never shut off due to overheating or reaching max temperature. That way you could have an aquatuner heat the water the last bit of the way to boiling to distil polluted water into clean water at 10kg/s. That flowrate/distil rate required the pressure in the left most tile of the tepidizer to be between 394kg and 402kg constantly which was tricky but not impossible to do, btw.

ONI used to be more fun.

[Denisetwin]

Thanks for posting, I never check the bug forum so don't see this stuff.  One thing I'm not getting here, is that the heater isn't part of this temp clamping thing.  In my current game, my "heater" CONSTANTLY overheats itself even when the gas around it is cooler than the unit itself so I can't even use a temp sensor to shut it off before it takes heat damage.  I have it in chlorine in a drecko farm as the farm is too cold by just a couple degrees to keep the balm lilies growing.  Instead the heater overheats and doesn't even raise the temp directly above it from 33 to 35....

 

[PhailRaptor]

Have you tried Tempshift Plates to help the heat spread @Denisetwin ?

[beowulf2010]

2 hours ago, Denisetwin said:

Thanks for posting, I never check the bug forum so don't see this stuff.  One thing I'm not getting here, is that the heater isn't part of this temp clamping thing.  In my current game, my "heater" CONSTANTLY overheats itself even when the gas around it is cooler than the unit itself so I can't even use a temp sensor to shut it off before it takes heat damage.  I have it in chlorine in a drecko farm as the farm is too cold by just a couple degrees to keep the balm lilies growing.  Instead the heater overheats and doesn't even raise the temp directly above it from 33 to 35....

 

I'm confused. Are you trying to use a Liquid Tepidizer to heat gas? If so, is it submerged in a liquid with either metal tiles, doors or Tempshift Plates to spread the heat? If not, that's your overheating issue... 

If you're using a Space Heater, not sure why that's overheating... 

[The Flying Fox]

21 hours ago, Lifegrow said:

Yeah, but it's posted here first... 

Why? It's clearly a coding oversight, so why post it in general forums instead of just reporting it. Makes zero sense.

 

..Wow, really?  The order that I posted the topic verse the bug report matters to you?  To me, that makes no sense.  As for why.

21 hours ago, Kabrute said:

 not everyone checks bug report page so I can only guess it was to further raise awareness

 

3 hours ago, Denisetwin said:

Thanks for posting, I never check the bug forum so don't see this stuff.  One thing I'm not getting here, is that the heater isn't part of this temp clamping thing.  In my current game, my "heater" CONSTANTLY overheats itself even when the gas around it is cooler than the unit itself so I can't even use a temp sensor to shut it off before it takes heat damage.  I have it in chlorine in a drecko farm as the farm is too cold by just a couple degrees to keep the balm lilies growing.  Instead the heater overheats and doesn't even raise the temp directly above it from 33 to 35....

 

There you go.

 

@Denisetwin  Yeah, what PhailRaptor said could help, definitely.  Chlorine has terrible thermal conductivity.  The lowest for a gas in the game, that I recall.  It's more of an insulator then anything.  If we couldn't make vacuums readily in the game, then filling the space with chlorine and simply cooling it with a wheezewort or two would be the next best thing.  So a tempshift plate behind the space heater can help transfer the heat better into the chlorine.  Another option might be if you have hydrogen at the top of the room, heat that instead and use tempshift plates to carry the heat over into the chlorine.  

 

And the reason why your space heater is over-heating is because the clamping happens (From my knowledge) on the environment (gas/liquids) touching the building.  Not so much the building itself.  Since the chlorine around the space heater isn't anywhere near the over-heat temperature of the space heater, there is no clamping, thus  the space heater is free to heat itself until it breaks.  In the case of the AETN, the environment is a tiny amount hotter then the AETN so the temperature of the oil/hydrogen is clamping and then what little heat is getting into the machine is destroyed by the AETN.  At least, that seems to be how it's functioning.

 

9 hours ago, psusi said:

How?  Shouldn't temperature that high cause the tepidizer to overheat and take damage?  Which seems like a much more sane thing to do than have it delete heat from the oil if it is above the max temp.

 

To give you a more visual idea what Saturnus is mentioning, this is what you could do with a liquid tepidizer before they included this temperature clamping.  The amount of heat it can produce is truly massive.  This was one of my earlier tinkerings with it.  One storage compactor... vaporized!  Turned into rock gas.    And yes, it's the same save file, just.. a thousand cycles younger!

 

[Lifegrow]

47 minutes ago, The Flying Fox said:

..Wow, really?  The order that I posted the topic verse the bug report matters to you?  To me, that makes no sense.  As for why.

Well yeah, it shows that your main focus wasn't squashing the bug, but showing everyone what you'd found.

If you don't see what's wrong with that, then it's because you're a part of the problem.